luke22ministries Posted June 6, 2011 Group: Junior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 15 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 115 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/03/2011 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/06/1974 Author Share Posted June 6, 2011 Great insight Candace! I write for the Faith section of the 'Examiner' online. I do it part time and of course, more for the love of it than for any gain (I've made a whole $1.50 so far). My posts and articles are aimed toward touching those hard topics in Christian faith that are hard for us to talk about. "Why does God allow Children to Die Young", "Christian marriage" and yes "Is it possible to lose or Surrender salvation". My whole intent is to bring many from all walks of the faith into a discussion, so that we can learn from each others view and most of all, find the biblical scripture that leads us where we need to be. It is my view, based on Romans 10:9 and John 3:16 that salvation cannot be lost once gained, in any fashion. However, I do believe sin has consequences. You cannot live outside of the will of God and desire him to bless your choices. Thats just what I get I understand this is a favourite debate of many, and a worthy topic of bible study. Years ago I studied it and concluded there were far too many warnings to continue on in the faith for me to ignore, and I don't think the Lord makes idle threats. But in practice, I am not sure the OSAS debate (or ES, as Shiloh is debating) has made that much difference to my walk, because regardlless of whether you can lose salvation or not, the instruction is always to, from whatever condition you are in, right here and now, continue on in the Lord. Just keep going in Him, continue in repetence, belief, strong trust. Even in those times where I have drifted from Him, I've always felt Him pull me back, I have faith He will continue to do so. My two cents . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted June 6, 2011 Share Posted June 6, 2011 Shiloh, Shiloh, my jabs as you call them, was a mirror held up to your writing. Not hardly. I have made no jabs at you. My comments were aimed at your behavior and your judgmental attitude. You simply can't find it in yourself to be honest about that. Nothing you said is a mirror of anything I said. I am not trading insults with you. I am pointing to a fatal flaw in how you are approaching this issue I didnt say an exact replica but ok you dont see it within your writings, fine. Nothing I can do about it. I would also point out that you cannot point to anything specific. All you can do is make generalized accusations. Let me be very clear on this point for my expertise lies in History. Our society is trained for instant gratification. So, although I want to know about salvation with signs and fireworks and easy solutions, I take care in knowing thats something I have to be very careful about. Call me over the top cautious. Know there are many beliefs sprouting about everywhere and many claims being made. And the devil himself tempted Christ with scripture rather artfully. Further the internet is a very tricky way of communication: I dont see you, I dont know your day to day experiences and I dont see your fruits; you cant see mine. Not sure what all of that has to do with history, but whatever. I don't think anyone is trying to trick anyone. Everything I say is open to investigation. You can feel free to interrogate me and test everthing thing I say. I am not at all threatened by being questioned or challenged. So far, that hasn't really happened. Shiloh, In terms of history: From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as is its branch becomes tender and puts out leaves , you know summer is near. So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near. Mat 24:32 I dont know if the end of times is at hand but we are in confused times and therefore should be very cautious. Like it or not we are products of our society which is instant everything, including instant salvation. I am not accusing you of this for I have not studied your Eternal Security, adequetly, yet. So there is history aspect. To amplify it, the Jews were Gods Chosen People, do you think being a Christian you have an easier obligation? Further am I not interested in threatening, or challenging I am truly sorry you see me that way. I am seeking the truth as best as I know how. You have not studied Eternal Security but yet you feel you are qualified to sit in judgment on those who believe it as if we think this is a rose colored world where life is easy and we get a free pass on sin? The Jews were chosen by God to be a light to the nations and to be showcase of God's faithfulness. I would say more is expected of us and we are in fact MORE responsible to keep God's commandments than those who did not have the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit. Titus 2:11-14 tells us that grace teaches us to say no to ungodliness and that we are to live sober and upright lives with a view and anticipation of the return of Jesus Christ who offered Himself up as a sacrifice in order to redeem us for the purposes of sanctififying to Himself a people who are pure and zealous for good works. Our salvation is the expectation of holy living and all the more so because the return of Christ is near. Further Christians will experience salvation differently; we all have different crosses to bare...Some have to overcome their sins by violence. Why is violence necessary if you already confessed Jesus Christ as your personal savior? only let each person lead the life that the Lord has assigned to him [when do we fully realize that]. And to which God has called to him. THIS IS MY RULE IN ALL THE CHURCHES Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 6, 2011 Share Posted June 6, 2011 'i' look at it this way. Both Doctrines have been around for a very long time! Way past any 120 years preaching & STRIVING to the Eternally Lost pre/flood ones. (and with NO CHANGE!) Take your pick? But, ONE IS A FATAL CHOICE! Meaning that when one is accountable, (First Acts 5:32 & then John 3:3-8 as in Rom. 8:1 NO CONDEMNATION, then there is REQUIRED THE LEADING OF THE HOLY GHOST!) Again, both DOCTRINES do not pass the CLOSING WARNINGS of God's Word, + Eccl. 3:14 first OT one. That of being your own god by adding or removing from His Words, and then having this ones name required to be removed from the Book Of Life. OK: The choice is mine to accept, or am I a created Brain Dead ROBOT who will be one of these two class of Obad. 1:16 who had been upon God's Holy Mountain DRINKING (see Heb. 6:1-5's positives only) & then will be BLOTTED FROM ETERNITY? Never Ever To EXIST AGAIN! JUST GONE! --Elijah Yes It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. 2 Timothy 2:11-13 Well Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers. 2 Timothy 2:14 Yes Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee. Hebrews 13:5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Da Servant Posted June 6, 2011 Group: Junior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 34 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 109 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/31/2009 Status: Offline Share Posted June 6, 2011 It is posible to become 'unsaved,' after receiving salvation from the Lord Jesus. Jesus spoke of it when he gave the parable of the sower where some seed fell on rocky ground, and some fell among thorns. Paul also spoke about it when he said that it is impossible to be grafted back in once we have departed the faith, having tasted the goodness and grace of God (this isn't an exact quote, but it is accurate.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted June 6, 2011 Share Posted June 6, 2011 It is posible to become 'unsaved,' after receiving salvation from the Lord Jesus. Jesus spoke of it when he gave the parable of the sower where some seed fell on rocky ground, and some fell among thorns. Not really. This parable, according to Jesus is the key to understanding all of the parables. It is actualy the key to understanding the entire book of Mark. The issue is about who is or is not good ground. Paul also spoke about it when he said that it is impossible to be grafted back in once we have departed the faith, having tasted the goodness and grace of God (this isn't an exact quote, but it is accurate.) No, itis not accurate. You are mixing two different passages. Grafting in refers to Romans 11 and pertains to participation in the redeemed community, not salvation. The other passage you are alluding to is Hebrews 6:4-6, which is not about salvation or apostasy. The issue in this passage, if you read beginning with Hebrews 5:12 and reading all the way to Hebrews 6:6, is spiritual immaturity. The comoplaint being made by the author is not that they are apostasizing or rejecting the faith, but that they are lazy, immature, and spiritually stagnate. They are not being threatened with the loss of their salvation. The "falling away" in the Greek is not the word for apostasy, but is word that refers to someone who falls aside due to fatigue or discomfort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luke22ministries Posted June 6, 2011 Group: Junior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 15 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 115 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/03/2011 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/06/1974 Author Share Posted June 6, 2011 Servant, I thank you for the post. What you say is interesting. With respect as a brother, I disagree. I do believe that Jesus was talking about those who know him and those who dont in the parable. He often uses parables to speak about those 'saved' and those 'not'. Paul's quote is this "And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again". Romans 11:23. The verse before talks about God's sterness toward those who "fell". I think we can all agree that sin has its consequences. Many times in the gospels, Jesus, Peter, Paul and John speak about the chastisement of God. Remember, God chastises those whom he loves. I think there is a very big difference between being chastised and corrected and being disowned. When your children act in ways that are not proper, you ground them. However, you dont put them out on the street and say "Good luck". It is posible to become 'unsaved,' after receiving salvation from the Lord Jesus. Jesus spoke of it when he gave the parable of the sower where some seed fell on rocky ground, and some fell among thorns. Paul also spoke about it when he said that it is impossible to be grafted back in once we have departed the faith, having tasted the goodness and grace of God (this isn't an exact quote, but it is accurate.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fez Posted June 6, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 683 Topics Per Day: 0.12 Content Count: 11,128 Content Per Day: 2.00 Reputation: 1,352 Days Won: 54 Joined: 02/03/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/07/1952 Share Posted June 6, 2011 It is posible to become 'unsaved,' after receiving salvation from the Lord Jesus. Jesus spoke of it when he gave the parable of the sower where some seed fell on rocky ground, and some fell among thorns. Paul also spoke about it when he said that it is impossible to be grafted back in once we have departed the faith, having tasted the goodness and grace of God (this isn't an exact quote, but it is accurate.) So how does one who was born again become...unborn? Exactly! Why would our God, who loved us before we were saved, save us (as only He can do), knowing that we will reject Him and He will condemn us to death? This is not the God I serve. He knew before time that you would be predestined to be saved. How then would He who loves you, then allow you to know Him, knowing that you are going to reject Him and die? Why would Jesus die for my sins, save me, and then reject me? To what end? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterH Posted June 6, 2011 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 9 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 196 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 11 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/22/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted June 6, 2011 Let's say there was a line drawn in the sand around 2000 years ago by Jesus. Jesus says to cross this line means you pick up your cross and follow me (Jesus) daily, it means I (Jesus) am the way the truth and the life, it means no one may come to the Father but through me (Jesus). Crossing the line means you're no longer your own but Christ Jesus is your master and He owns you and you are saved for his glory and pleasure. A problem I see is that people try to see just how close they can get to the line without really crossing it. They think proximity equates salvation. And some times they even fool us into thinking they've crossed it but just because we're fooled doesn't mean God is. John 10:25-30 25 Jesus replied, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest man Posted June 6, 2011 Share Posted June 6, 2011 It is posible to become 'unsaved,' after receiving salvation from the Lord Jesus. Jesus spoke of it when he gave the parable of the sower where some seed fell on rocky ground, and some fell among thorns. Paul also spoke about it when he said that it is impossible to be grafted back in once we have departed the faith, having tasted the goodness and grace of God (this isn't an exact quote, but it is accurate.) So how does one who was born again become...unborn? So what do you guys think? With all of these posts, do you believe, from scripture that salvation is once given always had or can be lost or surrendered? James 5 19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. Then if we can "lose" our salvation then salvation is not fully God's work. If that is the case we can then we can stand before Him on our own accord because we made sure we stayed saved. How does something that doesn't start with us, and was something we could never do, somehow now make eligible to work for. What is your interpretation of that passage from James? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest man Posted June 6, 2011 Share Posted June 6, 2011 A problem I see is that people try to see just how close they can get to the line without really crossing it. They think proximity equates salvation. And some times they even fool us into thinking they've crossed it but just because we're fooled doesn't mean God is. For many are called but few are chosen. The gate that leads to life is narrow and there are few who find it. Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord", shall enter the kingdom of heaven. You believe there is one God, you do well, even the demons believe and tremble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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