The Message

[Shiloh62]

but honestly, i think if someone really wants a paraphrase bible (face it, they are more "digestible" for new christians) they should skip the message and go for the "new living translation". that one also uses more common street lingo, and in fact, it uses more believable street lingo. the message tries too hard. the NLT sounds like how we really talk. and without being too wordy. and without writing paragraphs around verses. still, it's a paraphrase and not suitable for serious study.

I like the NLT as a devotionable Bible. It is really smooth, and is easy on you especially in those early morning devotions, LOL.

One point, though. It does not claim to be a paraphrase; it claims,in some of the front material, to be a translation. It reads like a paraphrase but it is a bonafide translation. By the way, the NLT Study Bible is really good.

One thing about the Message, the paragraphs are arranged to show line of thought. That is how we write today. Paragraphs set off context and line of thought. The chapter and verse breaks sometimes break up the line of thought and frankly, were added in a very arbitrary manner around the 13th century by Stephen Langdon and there are a lot of bad chapter and verse breaks. The paragraph structure is more in tune with how we think and write today.

One other thing: With a paraphrase you are not getting Scripture. You are getting one person's theology. A paraphrase is subjective, whereas a translation is objective. Translations take many things into account and are usually created by teams of professionals of various disciplines related to biblical translation, such as historians, linguistic experts, theologians, etc. and they span multiple denominations, and so you get a more objective treatment of the text. A paraphrase is how one person sees the Bible and is not really Scripture. If the author of the paraphrase has any screwy theology, it will come out in the paraphrase. For that reason, I would not call the Message a Bible and it should not be treated as a Bible. For any kind of serious study, a bonafide translation should be used. The Message should be used in tandem with a true translation and never as one's primary Bible.

So, In other words, a paraphrase is similar to today's history books in that it is written from the author's possibly biased point-of-view.

[Shiloh62]

The Message is not a translation, but one mans twisted understanding of the Bible with new age and gnosticism thrown in to make it a dangerous lie. Read this The Message.

When Christian's stop demonizing their own bible maybe we'll see more converts to Christianity.

There are Christians who claim the NIV is straight from hell!

Is that the 'message' we should be declaring to an unsaved world?

The message bible just brings the message across. It's not a study bible and the only bad thing about it is your opinion of it!

One of these days...you and I are bound to agree on something!

We are to be as the Bereans and hold everything up to scripture. When one version of the "bible" includes new age and gnostic belief, it stops being a bible and becomes the interpretation by one man, Eugene Peterson. I assume you also like the New World Translation from the Jehovah Witness, or the King James Bible used by the Mormons with LDS footnotes, dictionary and topical guide?

Your assumptions are misguided. And your opinion of the message bible is also misguided.

You too often believe the opinions of others who are as equally misguided as you are!

But if you think it's your duty to slander the Word of God...have at it!

Christian's are too often their own enemy.

I didn't see anywhere where onelight slandered the word of God. He did critizize the author's poor attempt at translation. That's a little bit different.

[ManApart]

but they still can be beneficial for edification.

I disagree wholeheratedly.

How can a house built upon shifting sand be beneficial for edification?

It has been proven in this thread that The Message purports itself to be a Bible and not merely a translation. Therefore, we are commanded to examine it. It also has been shown in this thread that it distorts the God of our Gospel.

We have two opitons here. To fully embrace it or caste it off.

We have a scriptural mandate;

1Jo 4:1

Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

2Co 11:2

For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

2Co 11:3

But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his cunning, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

2Co 11:4

For if he that comes preaches another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if you receive another spirit, which you have not received, or another gospel, which you have not accepted, you might well bear with him.

Ga 1:7

Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

Ga 1:8

But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Ga 1:9

As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that you have received, let him be accursed.

Back to the point that I disagree with you about. How can there be any Light coming from the darkness?

Mt 6:22

The light of the body is the eye: if therefore your eye be sound, your whole body shall be full of light.

Mt 6:23

But if your eye be evil, your whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in you be darkness, how great is that darkness!

"Be careful what you see little eyes little eyes, be careful what you see little eyes. Be careful what you hear little ears little ears, be careful what you hear little ears. Be careful whom you trust little heart little heart, be careful whom you trust little heart. For the Father up above is looking down in Love"

Grace and Peace to you too brother,

Dave

I appreciate your reply, and understand. I can relate to the perspective you have. For someone raised in Mainstream Christianity, never really advancing their studies, or for someone coming to Christianity, the very altered versions are not for them. I would agree on that 100 %. Some versions are very helpful, while some can cause more bad than good. Personally, I do not like the Message Bible that much. But it can be beneficial for teaching and expounding the scriptures. What is your version you are true to? Most raised in the church, as myself, would say the Authorized King James. Established in the 1600's. Even that version has it alterations. So do we discard the King James? What about American Standard, or Amplified? Different translation and interpretations based on the writer, giving another expression of what was received. If we argue over the versions, then everyone is out of there pretty much. We can access ancient manuscripts, and some versions use these to get closer to the original meaning.

My stance on the various versions, I study and read. I test the spirits, and compare the translations with the original Hebrew/ Aramaic and Greek. I always have my KJV, but also have many other versions for cross reference and expounding.

I have a foundation. I know my heart and where I am with the Divine Nature. I can read and study historical documents, manuscripts, other holy oracles, and not be swayed or dismayed. I know the core truths of the characteristics and attributes of the Divine Nature.

All the verses you used are great, and I agree...I do. I do know that following Christ, and the avenues of discipleship, varies for everyone. You should never base your walk on any one else's.

I think students should have not just the KJV, but concordances, dictionaries, and whatever version helps them to understand the scripture...

Thank you again brother for your reply, and I pray that converstaing and sharing edifies us both.

[oldzimm]

My response to 'The Message' translation,

if the Devil cannot stop people from reading God's Word, he'll corrupt God's Word!

Now that is a quote worth remembering.

[OneLight]

ManApart, what also has to be taken into consideration is which text they translators used when translating the bible. The ASB and NASB omit verses and partial verses, where the KJV and NJKV add them. It all depends on whether the translators used the "Majority" or "Received" text, or if they used the "Critical" text. The KJ Versions used the first and the ASB Versions used the later.

[ManApart]

How insignificant is it then to argue over one English version, in a line of MANY!

because;

2Ti 4:2

Preach the word; be diligent in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

2Ti 4:3

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they draw to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

2Ti 4:4

And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto myths.

I agree... I do, but my point was that knowing those scriptures you mentioned, we should have reverence for the original oracles, not argue over one of the many distorted versions. No point in fighting or arguing over the many new versions and translations...we know they are not accurate, but they still can be beneficial for edification.

Plus we have to understand that the Word of God is not eh words in black on a white page. Those change; always have always will. God does not change,. and the Word does not either. The Word of God is the message; the morals, principles, teachings, characteristics, and attributes of the Divine nature expressed by man through inspiration. That does not change, and is what students should be focusing on, not all the fantasy and story-telling most endure. So we do see today that the majority have turned from the truth....seems most fantasy, fables, and myths are being taken as literal.

May grace and peace be with you....

You are confusing. You say that we should strive to know God, but excuse the lies in a book that someone calls the bible which can lead someone down the wrong path. Didn't Christ come to shine light into the darkness, and has He not told us to do the same? I do agree that we should go back to the copies of the originals that are available today and glean from them as much guidance as we can. Then what? Are we to remain silent when we see errors?

It all comes down to discernment. I understand that it may seem confusing. I was there at one point early on in my studies. When I got into Seminary studies, I came across many things that went against what I was taught growing up. That is okay, because I understand that we are taught very dogmatic beliefs. Many denominations is many divisions, focusing on their own ideas and theories instead of the core principles of the teachings.

With growth comes greater discernment. One must continue to grow and mature mentally, emotionally, and spiritually, and this brings greater discernment. Look at what we have when it comes to scripture. Go back to the beginnings and study the original manuscripts. Get to knoe the author, who he was writing to, why he was writing. Understand the cultural perspective. You will see what we have today is not what was intended. It has been changed, omitted, and exaggerated more than you know. So yes, strive to know the Nature of God. We know there is many alterations, so do we ignore everything? I guarentee you that you will not find one perfect translation form the original text. Even the KJV has its issues.

BUT...if you read and study to find those mistranslations and misinterpretations, you are missing the whole point of the enlightened teachings. Read to receive the message with the guidance of the Spirit, and search for the Nature being expressed. Whose to say that a scripture enlightens your world, and you write your experience down, only to give a revelation to another, bringing them to Christ. Your writing was insprired, and a Divine movement came upon you, unctioning you to write. Your words...your experience, should we burn or throw away your expression you shared because it was not exactly like the original manuscripts thousands of years ago? I would think not. I would feel blessed to read it, and would use my discernment to test the spirits, and make my own decision whether or not, your writing is edifying to me.

May grace and peace be with you, and I apologize for any confusion....

[ManApart]

How insignificant is it then to argue over one English version, in a line of MANY!

because;

2Ti 4:2

Preach the word; be diligent in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

2Ti 4:3

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they draw to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

2Ti 4:4

And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto myths.

I agree... I do, but my point was that knowing those scriptures you mentioned, we should have reverence for the original oracles, not argue over one of the many distorted versions. No point in fighting or arguing over the many new versions and translations...we know they are not accurate, but they still can be beneficial for edification.

Plus we have to understand that the Word of God is not eh words in black on a white page. Those change; always have always will. God does not change,. and the Word does not either. The Word of God is the message; the morals, principles, teachings, characteristics, and attributes of the Divine nature expressed by man through inspiration. That does not change, and is what students should be focusing on, not all the fantasy and story-telling most endure. So we do see today that the majority have turned from the truth....seems most fantasy, fables, and myths are being taken as literal.

May grace and peace be with you....

You are confusing. You say that we should strive to know God, but excuse the lies in a book that someone calls the bible which can lead someone down the wrong path. Didn't Christ come to shine light into the darkness, and has He not told us to do the same? I do agree that we should go back to the copies of the originals that are available today and glean from them as much guidance as we can. Then what? Are we to remain silent when we see errors?

And are we to remain quiet? NO. This is why I share what I do. Most have not studied the history of the Christian Church and do not understand the depth of dogma within the core teachings we receive in Church. I applied myself to know, to study and learn....to seek the truth and grow. I have studied and studied more than you know...I tested the spirits. Unfortuneately most of what we believed as true within mainstream Christianity, has not been taught correctly. So no, do not remain quiet. You will learn of many things...share them.

[ManApart]

I agree... I do, but my point was that knowing those scriptures you mentioned, we should have reverence for the original oracles, not argue over one of the many distorted versions. No point in fighting or arguing over the many new versions and translations...we know they are not accurate, but they still can be beneficial for edification.

Plus we have to understand that the Word of God is not eh words in black on a white page. Those change; always have always will. God does not change,. and the Word does not either. The Word of God is the message; the morals, principles, teachings, characteristics, and attributes of the Divine nature expressed by man through inspiration. That does not change, and is what students should be focusing on, not all the fantasy and story-telling most endure. So we do see today that the majority have turned from the truth....seems most fantasy, fables, and myths are being taken as literal.

May grace and peace be with you....

Ok Im curious. Do you think the stories in the bible are fantasy fables and myths?

Have you studied you history and origins? Most do not and stay complacent and idle, never really maturing and growing. You can ask any Christian if Salavational teachings are all there is, and most will say yes.

Hebrew 6:1-3 says, "Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith towards God, of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgement. And this we will do if God permit."

Once a foundation is down, it is time to move on. Do you build a foundation for a house and then just stand there next to it? No, you start to build. I promise that all the meat and advanced knowledge of Christianity today is not the building, is not the meat. People feel they are grown and on the meat, but really they are still on the milk.

History and origins of what we have as a Judeo- Christian, are very essential for any biblical student. The Hebrews were a nomadic people, constantly moving, and never really integrating themselves with the other more advanced civilizations. As they moved about in the Mesopotamian region, they incorporated the stories and myths of those people. the Hebrews were late when it came to written record, and stayed in oral tradition for a while, compared to the societies around them.

Stories were told generation by generation, changing with the change of the culture. People change, that is a given, and when a story is told, it reflects the overall belief of the people, and will change to reflect the new overall beliefs.

Eventually, written record came along and then the stories of old were passed down. As they were written, they conveyed stories from the surrounding cultures, with the Hebrew belief twist.

The Holy Bible we have today is a compilation of myths, epics, sagas, folklores, poetry, pose, and even symbology, allegory, and parables. Biblical students need to learn Israelite literary forms and writings.

There are many parts of the scripture that were not meant to be literal, but we take them literal. Some things were meant to be literal and they think its fantasy. This is why one needs to study and learn for themselves what the truth really is, then one can model their lives afterwards.

I pray that you continue in your journey. I do know that when you study and read, be careful. test the spirits. When you study from one specific denomination, they are only going to tell you the facts that are important and agree to their own ideas. They will only tell you 5 out of 10 facts. Find the facts for yourself, and make your own decisions.

If you would like to know more about the history of the Judeo- Christian Bible, I would be more than happy to share what is actually myth and so on. Just because something is a myth, it does not mean it is false. A myth can be described as a falsehood portraying a truth. When man could not comprehend the fullness of something as nature or the divine, he had to explain what he experienced the best way he knew how. Myths are the oldest form of story telling. The characters and so on were not meant to be real in that sense; they were trying to express a truth experienced.

God is bigger than one book or the box that religion places him in....

[Guest shiloh357]

but honestly, i think if someone really wants a paraphrase bible (face it, they are more "digestible" for new christians) they should skip the message and go for the "new living translation". that one also uses more common street lingo, and in fact, it uses more believable street lingo. the message tries too hard. the NLT sounds like how we really talk. and without being too wordy. and without writing paragraphs around verses. still, it's a paraphrase and not suitable for serious study.

I like the NLT as a devotionable Bible. It is really smooth, and is easy on you especially in those early morning devotions, LOL.

One point, though. It does not claim to be a paraphrase; it claims,in some of the front material, to be a translation. It reads like a paraphrase but it is a bonafide translation. By the way, the NLT Study Bible is really good.

One thing about the Message, the paragraphs are arranged to show line of thought. That is how we write today. Paragraphs set off context and line of thought. The chapter and verse breaks sometimes break up the line of thought and frankly, were added in a very arbitrary manner around the 13th century by Stephen Langdon and there are a lot of bad chapter and verse breaks. The paragraph structure is more in tune with how we think and write today.

One other thing: With a paraphrase you are not getting Scripture. You are getting one person's theology. A paraphrase is subjective, whereas a translation is objective. Translations take many things into account and are usually created by teams of professionals of various disciplines related to biblical translation, such as historians, linguistic experts, theologians, etc. and they span multiple denominations, and so you get a more objective treatment of the text. A paraphrase is how one person sees the Bible and is not really Scripture. If the author of the paraphrase has any screwy theology, it will come out in the paraphrase. For that reason, I would not call the Message a Bible and it should not be treated as a Bible. For any kind of serious study, a bonafide translation should be used. The Message should be used in tandem with a true translation and never as one's primary Bible.

So, In other words, a paraphrase is similar to today's history books in that it is written from the author's possibly biased point-of-view.

Not exactly. The Message is a rendering of one's person's take on the Bible. It is the Bible according to the opinion and words of a modern man. It is a paraphrase and it is necessarily just a one man telling us how he reads and understands the text. It does contain the author's bias, of course. It's not exactly like a history book, though. It is a retelling or rewording of the text, but from an entirely personal and subjective point of view that frankly, one should not trust.

A Paraphrase has no spiritual value. It is not Scripture and is not a Bible . It is a paraphrase of the Bible. Any thelogical proplems or issues that the author has will come out in the paraphrase. A paraphrase does not rely on exegesis, but eisogesis. It is one man reading his theology into the text.

I see people carrying The Message to Church like a Bible and that is unfortunate. There plenty of easy-to-understand translations. People do not need the Bible dumbed down for them. If they would be diligent in their studies the Bible would not be hard to understand.

As a side note from the above: the Bible speaks of the manifold wisdom of God. God's wisdom is manifold, or "many-sided." No translation can do justice to that. There is no way a single translation can do justice to the inexhaustible wisdom conatined in Scripture. No translation will ever be "easy" enough to read, if the reader never invests time and may be even a little money in the study of Scripture. The Bible is designed to be studied and to be searched out. It is one of our highest aspirations to be students of Scripture.

[Matthitjah]

but they still can be beneficial for edification.

I disagree wholeheratedly.

How can a house built upon shifting sand be beneficial for edification?

It has been proven in this thread that The Message purports itself to be a Bible and not merely a translation. Therefore, we are commanded to examine it. It also has been shown in this thread that it distorts the God of our Gospel.

We have two opitons here. To fully embrace it or caste it off.

We have a scriptural mandate;

1Jo 4:1

Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

2Co 11:2

For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

2Co 11:3

But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his cunning, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

2Co 11:4

For if he that comes preaches another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if you receive another spirit, which you have not received, or another gospel, which you have not accepted, you might well bear with him.

Ga 1:7

Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

Ga 1:8

But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Ga 1:9

As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that you have received, let him be accursed.

Back to the point that I disagree with you about. How can there be any Light coming from the darkness?

Mt 6:22

The light of the body is the eye: if therefore your eye be sound, your whole body shall be full of light.

Mt 6:23

But if your eye be evil, your whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in you be darkness, how great is that darkness!

"Be careful what you see little eyes little eyes, be careful what you see little eyes. Be careful what you hear little ears little ears, be careful what you hear little ears. Be careful whom you trust little heart little heart, be careful whom you trust little heart. For the Father up above is looking down in Love"

Grace and Peace to you too brother,

Dave

I appreciate your reply, and understand. I can relate to the perspective you have. For someone raised in Mainstream Christianity, never really advancing their studies, or for someone coming to Christianity, the very altered versions are not for them. I would agree on that 100 %. Some versions are very helpful, while some can cause more bad than good. Personally, I do not like the Message Bible that much. But it can be beneficial for teaching and expounding the scriptures. What is your version you are true to? Most raised in the church, as myself, would say the Authorized King James. Established in the 1600's. Even that version has it alterations. So do we discard the King James? What about American Standard, or Amplified? Different translation and interpretations based on the writer, giving another expression of what was received. If we argue over the versions, then everyone is out of there pretty much. We can access ancient manuscripts, and some versions use these to get closer to the original meaning.

My stance on the various versions, I study and read. I test the spirits, and compare the translations with the original Hebrew/ Aramaic and Greek. I always have my KJV, but also have many other versions for cross reference and expounding.

I have a foundation. I know my heart and where I am with the Divine Nature. I can read and study historical documents, manuscripts, other holy oracles, and not be swayed or dismayed. I know the core truths of the characteristics and attributes of the Divine Nature.

All the verses you used are great, and I agree...I do. I do know that following Christ, and the avenues of discipleship, varies for everyone. You should never base your walk on any one else's.

I think students should have not just the KJV, but concordances, dictionaries, and whatever version helps them to understand the scripture...

Thank you again brother for your reply, and I pray that converstaing and sharing edifies us both.

Bless you brother,

What is your version you are true to? Most raised in the church, as myself, would say the Authorized King James. Established in the 1600's. Even that version has it alterations. So do we discard the King James? What about American Standard, or Amplified? Different translation and interpretations based on the writer, giving another expression of what was received. If we argue over the versions, then everyone is out of there pretty much. We can access ancient manuscripts, and some versions use these to get closer to the original meaning.

The common translations out there may have translational errors (In your opinion) and they may not, but they definately do not intentionally change the meaning of the Word.

I have a software package with all the reliable texts in it.

Divine Nature

Unpack this thought for me. What does this mean?

I do know that following Christ, and the avenues of discipleship, varies for everyone

We are all walking our walk and we are all working out our Salvation with fear and great trembling. At least I hope. However, we are all following the Same Christ Jesus who is God come in the Flesh. Therefore, we are all born into the same Kingdom. We are all being discipled in the same Faith. One Body One Faith. Christ is the head.

Jesus said this;

Joh 14:6

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

No one gets to the Father except by jesus. Therefore, if this Bible is presenting another Jesus, another understanding, wouldn't you agree that it's dangerous?

Thanks for the kind words. I'm glad that were conversing too.

Peace,

Dave