Ro 11:20-21

[Smalcald]

Chesterton,

We can do nothing to save ourselves we do however have the ability to walk away from Christ to walk away from faith and this gift that we are freely given. We are called to live in this faith that is supplied to us, but notice in this passage; the Jews did not have faith and they were indeed cut off, how much more we who have been freely given faith must not boast as if we are better than the Jews just because we have accepted a free gift we have nothing that has not been given to us our only response is gratitude. Gratitude means living for Christ following Him. What we do is surrender we cannot take any credit; it is not about us.

Yod,

I would disagree about that particular verse, it is being addressed to gentiles and how they viewed faith as something that they could boast about or act higher than others particularly the Jews who at that time did not have faith.

19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness,[f] if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved,[g] as it is written:

[Guest yod]

Yod,

I would disagree about that particular verse, it is being addressed to gentiles and how they viewed faith as something that they could boast about or act higher than others particularly the Jews who at that time did not have faith.

19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness,[f] if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved,[g] as it is written:

the key verse is bolded for you.

This verse can't be taken out of the context of the point Paul is making, starting in chapter 9 and going through chapter 12. He is explaining to the Gentiles in the community at Rome why they shouldn't be arrogant towards the natural branches. It is about arrogance towards the Jews and God's ultimate plan to restore them. Working against that plan shows a lack of trust, but arrogance will get you cut off.

If it was about "faith", there would be no reference to the natural branches necessary.

[Smalcald]

I see this point.

However according to this scripture and all others in the New Testament, what causes gentiles to be grafted in or cutoff what causes the Jews to be cutoff or re-grafted back in?

20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith.

[Guest yod]

I see this point.

However according to this scripture and all others in the New Testament, what causes gentiles to be grafted in or cutoff what causes the Jews to be cutoff or re-grafted back in?

20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith.

and the verse before that one makes the context clear about what kind of action is defined as "unbelief"

17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you.

[OldEnglishSheepdog]

What is your interpretation of this verse?

Rom 11:20 Well, because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be high-minded, but fear.

Rom 11:21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, fear lest He also may not spare you either!

God is warning us not to take our salvation for granted. We must endure to be saved, and sin will destroy our faith if we consistently refuse to follow the commandments of Jesus.

Look at verse 22:

22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

Look at the context. Who was it that was cut off for their unbelief? It was the corporate nation of Israel. Did that include every single Hebrew therein? No, but the bulk of them were unbelievers so the branch (the Nation of Israel) was cut (but will be grafted back in Romans 11:24-26), and the new branch (Gentile believers) was grafted on.

This is not a reference to the faith of the individual but deals with God's people corporately.

Just before the topic turns to God's people corporately, however, we do see this "So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace" (Romans 11:5-6)

Also, it is important to remember that Paul didn't break his letter into chapters. This was done later to help organize the letters.

Paul continues in the same line of thought in Chapter 12, which starts:

1 Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. 2 Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

Certianly, but this doesn't suggest that people won't be saved if they don't work for it, since, by the same token, it is in the same letter that we find: "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness" (Romans 4:5).

Because it is Jesus' death that "has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation" (Col. 1:22).

[~candice~]

Yod,

I'm with you so far, in that the context is about a portion of the Jewish people being broken off, and the gentile being grafted in. But then it goes further and issues a warning about the gentiles themselves being broken off... since I don't believe the Lord makes idle threats, then this must be possible. What would happen if the gentiles (and I agree with OES, it is corporate) were cut off?

Thanks

Candice

Its about faith.

Without faith we will also be broken off also and left. Here God is saying look I didn't even spare my chosen people because of their lack of faith in My Son. So you who have faith only because of my Grace not because of ANYTHING you did, should hold this precious faith with fear and not boast particularly against my chosen people.

No, it's in the middle of a passage about Israel being set aside for a season and the relationship between the Gentiles and the Jewish people are the subject and purpose of the chapter. It is a warning about anti-semitism that supersessionists (replacement theology) had better heed.

It has to do with "faith" only in the fact that Paul is saying we need to trust that God still has a glorious plan for the salvation of Israel/Jews. This particular verse is meant to inform those who would oppose that plan about their sure damnation.

[mizzdy]

Yod,

I'm with you so far, in that the context is about a portion of the Jewish people being broken off, and the gentile being grafted in. But then it goes further and issues a warning about the gentiles themselves being broken off... since I don't believe the Lord makes idle threats, then this must be possible. What would happen if the gentiles (and I agree with OES, it is corporate) were cut off?

Thanks

Candice

Its about faith.

Without faith we will also be broken off also and left. Here God is saying look I didn't even spare my chosen people because of their lack of faith in My Son. So you who have faith only because of my Grace not because of ANYTHING you did, should hold this precious faith with fear and not boast particularly against my chosen people.

No, it's in the middle of a passage about Israel being set aside for a season and the relationship between the Gentiles and the Jewish people are the subject and purpose of the chapter. It is a warning about anti-semitism that supersessionists (replacement theology) had better heed.

It has to do with "faith" only in the fact that Paul is saying we need to trust that God still has a glorious plan for the salvation of Israel/Jews. This particular verse is meant to inform those who would oppose that plan about their sure damnation.

How can it be the whole corporate nation of Israel? (this is to OES also) No where does it say all the branches were broken off, the branches broken off are the ones who went into idolatry decades before, those who refused to see Him as the Messiah, the unbelievers. If anyone truly repents and allows Him to bring about a change of heart they can and will be grafted back into the tree.

If He cuts off everyone from the tree wouldn't that mean that the whole of the gentiles are doomed, believers and unbelievers alike? If we see 'Israel' as the whole corporate of Israel and cut off as a whole even if there are believers within Israel, then they are all judged as a whole and as we see from the many instances God judged Israel as a whole over the sins sins of a few. If that is the case then all gentiles will be judged as a 'whole corporate nation of Gentiles' or we can see Israel as those scattered, those who heard Him first hand and rejected Him as those broken off. I see the remanant of who is saved out of the tribulation as Israel, they are the bride He comes back for, we are all joined into the commonwealth of Israel are we not when we accept Him? No longer called gentiles, gentiles are sinful people who are in need of a Savior who have not yet accept Him aren't they? Thats why there was an apostle sent out to them to bring them into the fold. If we are grafted into the tree of Israel it doesn't become a 'gentile' tree does it? I just may be misunderstanding what's meant by corporate Israel? Sorry I am taking this way off topic!!!!

God is terribly serious if one remains in unbelief no matter who you are. gentile or natural branches, stay in unbelief, follow after idols, keep yourselves from putting Him first you won't find yourself on that tree.

shalom,

Mizz

[~candice~]

Mizz I clearly said "a portion of". Not all of Israel was broken off. The passage is talking corporately about Gentile believers being grafted in, not that all Israel is broken off.

[Smalcald]

We are NEVER saved corporately only individually, that includes Jews and Gentiles alike.

But the essence of all of this is about unbelief and standing by faith, how because this is not something we earned but instead was given to us by grace we are very lucky indeed to be included with the Chosen people of God and grafted into that tree. But why, why are we grafted in and why have the Jews in this passage been taken out?

One word, faith or lack of faith in Christ as Lord, God and Savior. Further where does that faith come from? Does it come from some individual goodness or willingness to have faith that we have and the Jews do not? No we have nothing to boast about at all it is ALL a gift all we can do is reject it or not. Which it would be so wrong to think we are better than the Jews. Think of it we get a free gift and then we think we are special somehow?

[~candice~]

I don't think anyone here is suggesting salvation is corporate... salvation is by grace through (personal, individual) faith.