Homosexuality in the Bible

[~candice~]

Onus is on you to prove that God's design for marriage has either changed from man-woman, or was never limited to man-woman in the first place. You have demonstrated neither, and simply assume it is possible because it is convenient for your argument. Use scripture, and show me a single place where God either defines marriage in such a way that includes same sex couples, or a place where it is demonstrated that the design for marriage changes over time. This argument from silence business is very poor... because the design of man and woman is reiterated by Jesus Himself in the gospels.

[ByFaithAlone]

Onus is on you to prove that God's design for marriage has either changed from man-woman, or was never limited to man-woman in the first place. You have demonstrated neither, and simply assume it is possible because it is convenient for your argument. Use scripture, and show me a single place where God either defines marriage in such a way that includes same sex couples, or a place where it is demonstrated that the design for marriage changes over time. This argument from silence business is very poor... because the design of man and woman is reiterated by Jesus Himself in the gospels.

You are asking me to defend against the condemnation of homosexual marriage by showing that God specifically supports it. That is impossible. There is NO EVIDENCE. However, at the same time, that does not mean that we can condemn homosexual marriage (which is what is required for your position to be held as true). For instance, God says, "be fruitful and multiply." Does this mean that we attack those who are chaste for life for not procreating? Of course not. God did not say that it was wrong not to multiply he just indicated that he approved of people going forth and multiplying. In the same way, God did not say it was wrong to engage in homosexual marriage, he just mentioned heterosexual marriage. It was merely the norm of the day. Context is important...

Jesus reiterates the common view of marriage. He does not condemn homosexual marriage... unless I'm mistaken...

Shalom

Edited July 21, 2011 by ByFaithAlone

[Isaiah 6:8]

Gods design for marriage is clearly seen in the way he put us here in the first place. One Man, One women. He then said that they would leave mother and father and become one flesh (man and women) . He did not make two men, he did not make two women, He did not make one many and many women. He made one man, and one women He reiterates this throughout the bible. Using the logic you have provide would also allow, Polygamy as well. Homosexuality, of any kind is deemed unnatural in the Bible, on many fronts.

I do not place homosexuality as a sin above any others, but to say it is not, is simply not biblical.

[ByFaithAlone]

Actually I have not presented verses to you at all. The fact is this homosexuality is the fruit of something else. Mankind in general is condemned in Romans 1, Paul shows the fruit of exchanging the Truth of God for a lie, and worshipping the creature over the creator. So God gave them (us mankind) up. Everyone does not practice these things, but the fact that it is practiced proves that mankind in general gave up the truth of God for a lie. Again Truth. Again read the Word. You see I look past the homosexuality and see what it stems from. That is the real issue.

Interesting... now you would have to prove that all homosexual relationships (not just the specific ones mentioned in this passage in Romans) stem from sin... a tall order... good luck with that!

[Isaiah 6:8]

Actually I have not presented verses to you at all. The fact is this homosexuality is the fruit of something else. Mankind in general is condemned in Romans 1, Paul shows the fruit of exchanging the Truth of God for a lie, and worshipping the creature over the creator. So God gave them (us mankind) up. Everyone does not practice these things, but the fact that it is practiced proves that mankind in general gave up the truth of God for a lie. Again Truth. Again read the Word. You see I look past the homosexuality and see what it stems from. That is the real issue.

Interesting... now you would have to prove that all homosexual relationships (not just the specific ones mentioned in this passage in Romans) stem from sin... a tall order... good luck with that!

Why is that such a tall order. All lust of any kind stems from sin. Be it homosexual or not. It is still sin.

[ByFaithAlone]

Isaiah, could you please provide evidence as to why homosexuality is a sin? Also, what is biblically wrong about polygamy?

[Smalcald]

The problem is that we do have a very direct scripture saying that leaving the "natural use" of a man for a women or a women for a man is wrong. It it the lust for a man for a man that is condemned by God that is the focus of Romans 1 not temple prostitutes although this was of course also wrong. Most serious Christian scholars agree with this direct interpretation.

Where is marriage defined in the bible and how is it defined this is the key, God's plan for family life and marriage.

Also consider the terms husband and wife used throughout scripture from Genesis forward, who is the wife with two men? Biblical marriage requires a man and a women, AND a husband and a wife.

But lets examine Romans 1 again which is very clear:

"Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due."

Notice how it directly says "men, leaving the natural use of the women burned in their lust for another, men with men committing what is shameful".

Now let us say those other men were prostitutes, even in this case what is Paul concerned with here? He is mainly concerned with men leaving the natural attraction toward women and burning with lust for another, men with men doing what is shameful. This is the problem he is pointing out. It it was prostitution he would have directly mentioned prostitution as he clearly did in 1 Corinthians:

"Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a harlot? Certainly not! 16 Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body with her? For “the two,” He says, “shall become one flesh.” 17 But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.

18 Flee sexual immorality. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body. 19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? 20 For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body[c] and in your spirit, which are God’s."

So St. Paul indeed does speak of prostitutes which were a major problems for those in Corinth as shown above, but he does not mention them in Romans 1, here he is mainly concerned with the shameful lusts of men for men and women for women.

Now is this the unforgivable sin? Certainly not, some Christians may be afflicted by these lustful temptations and we should be open and kind about this temptation they have, but many indeed will be called to do as many of the apostles and follow the walk of St. Paul in remaining pure and single.

We also have this passage:

"Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,[a] nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God."

Consistent and direct scripture over and over.

[oak]

Your post show's me how much confusion people are falling into due to their lack of conscience. By your logic show me where in the Bible it say's I can't marry a goat or a statue? For that matter where in the Bible does it say that necrophilia is wrong? Why can't I marry a dead person? The fact of the matter is the readers of the Bible who want to please God are reading it as it should be read. Those who read the Bible for the purposes of pleasing themselves will always find justification for doing whatever they please. Why don't you go to a Muslim forum and discuss Ayatollah Khomeini, entitled "The Political, Philosophical, Social and Religious Principles" and it'advocating beastiality. In my reading of a book, "Reading Lolita in Tehran," this "advice" is mentioned. I find you would be a good advocate for this cause. It's hard research since the book was pulled. But then again you can be an advocate of pedophilia from Nabokov's book. Either way have fun.

Oak

[ByFaithAlone]

The problem is that we do have a very direct scripture saying that leaving the "natural use" of a man for a women or a women for a man is wrong. It it the lust for a man for a man that is condemned by God that is the focus of Romans 1 not temple prostitutes although this was of course also wrong. Most serious Christian scholars agree with this direct interpretation.

Which scholars? Can you provide names? Were any of them contemporaries of Paul like Philo and Aristides?

"Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. 26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due."

Notice how it directly says "men, leaving the natural use of the women burned in their lust for another, men with men committing what is shameful".

Now let us say those other men were prostitutes, even in this case what is Paul concerned with here? He is mainly concerned with men leaving the natural attraction toward women and burning with lust for another, men with men doing what is shameful. This is the problem he is pointing out.

Also notice that before this cropped section, there is a long list of idolatrous things the people of Rome commit. This is the connection to the shrine prostitution. It was common for sexual orgies to be engaged in during celebrations for certain gods, such as the goddess of fertility. Note that it says that they dishonored their bodies amongst themselves before it even mentioned homosexuals. This indicates that these events included men and women, heterosexual and homosexual acts which dishonored their bodies. Why? It was done outside of marriage. These facts are supported by Philo who wrote about them in AD 35 and Aristides who wrote about them in AD 125. Committing what is shameful is a reference back to the Levitical teachings about laying with another man (again this revolves around penetration idea).

If it was prostitution he would have directly mentioned prostitution as he clearly did in 1 Corinthians:

"Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a harlot? Certainly not! 16 Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body with her? For “the two,” He says, “shall become one flesh.” 17 But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him. 18 Flee sexual immorality. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body. 19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? 20 For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God’s."

So St. Paul indeed does speak of prostitutes which were a major problems for those in Corinth as shown above, but he does not mention them in Romans 1, here he is mainly concerned with the shameful lusts of men for men and women for women.

The Greek word used for harlots in the NT is πόρνης (porné). Here is verse 15 in Greek. The word is highlighted for convenience

15 οὐκ οἴδατε ὅτι τὰ σώματα ὑμῶν μέλη Χριστοῦ ἐστιν; ἄρας οὖν τὰ μέλη τοῦ Χριστοῦ ποιήσω πόρνης μέλη; μὴ γένοιτο.

Porné is a specifically feminine word. Greek has a neutral tense so Paul could have used that. He decided to use the feminine version. He could not use this word to refer to males. It would have made no sense. Instead, he puts it in the context of idolatry and massive sexual orgies involving homosexual and heterosexual relations, realizing that contemporaries like Philo and Aristides will understand that he is attacking idolatry and the sexual perversions that accompany it outside of marriage.

"Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,[a] nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God."

Consistent and direct scripture over and over.

This second scripture passage is also from 1 Corinthians, I believe (1 Corinthians 6 unless my memory deceives me). I did bring up a response to this before but I will address it again. The word used for homosexuals in this passage is arsenokoites. Arseno means male in Greek while koitai refers to bed. Literally in means males laying together. More specifically it refers to sexual relations (laying with is commonly used in the Bible to indicate sex and penetration - see previous responses on this issue). It does not refer to females and it only refers to one sexual act. This verse does not help you. No clear, consistent and direct scripture has yet to be found.

Your post show's me how much confusion people are falling into due to their lack of conscience. By your logic show me where in the Bible it say's I can't marry a goat or a statue? For that matter where in the Bible does it say that necrophilia is wrong? Why can't I marry a dead person?

Easy to solve these dilemmas. The word used for marriage only refers to human beings (males and females with souls - nephresh in hebrew). This is hard to explain unless you already read a bit of Hebrew and Greek. Simply put, the English language isn't adequate. That takes out goats, statues and dead bodies. Plus marriage to goats would fall under bestiality and marrying a statue would probably fall under idolatry. Interacting with a dead body makes you unclean according to Levitical law. I appreciate the sarcasm though...

The fact of the matter is the readers of the Bible who want to please God are reading it as it should be read. Those who read the Bible for the purposes of pleasing themselves will always find justification for doing whatever they please. Why don't you go to a Muslim forum and discuss Ayatollah Khomeini, entitled "The Political, Philosophical, Social and Religious Principles" and it'advocating beastiality. In my reading of a book, "Reading Lolita in Tehran," this "advice" is mentioned. I find you would be a good advocate for this cause. It's hard research since the book was pulled. But then again you can be an advocate of pedophilia from Nabokov's book. Either way have fun.

Oak

I find it rather insulting that a fellow Christian - one who is supposed to act in a Christ like manner - is basically telling me to *bleep* off and go away. I do not advocate bestiality or pedophilia. All of those are condemned as toe'vah. I ask merely for respect and you shall get the same from me.

Shalom my friends

[Smalcald]

But you still can't answer the very clear and direct condemnation of lust for another man which was St. Paul's point in Romans 1. Orgy or not what he focused on was leaving the natural use of men for women and women for men. The passages on what the definition of marriage is by Christ Himself are a very direct definition of marriage. Who is the wife in a gay "marriage"? Without a wife and a husband there can be no true marriage it does not exist.

Secondly you missed my point and actually made my point on the 1 Corinthians passage. St. Paul specifically called out a harlot as feminine, if he wanted to talk about prostitution he could have done that also in Romans 1, but no he focused there specifically on homosexual lust, which he calls out directly as sin and a perversion. It is really really hard to not make that case when it is in black and white right in front of you.

"This second scripture passage is also from 1 Corinthians, I believe (1 Corinthians 6 unless my memory deceives me). I did bring up a response to this before but I will address it again. The word used for homosexuals in this passage is arsenokoites. Arseno means male in Greek while koitai refers to bed. Literally in means males laying together. More specifically it refers to sexual relations (laying with is commonly used in the Bible to indicate sex and penetration - see previous responses on this issue). It does not refer to females and it only refers to one sexual act. This verse does not help you. No clear, consistent and direct scripture has yet to be found."

Boy I have not seen anyone try this hard to twist scripture before. Look sex is sex, oral, anal, vaginal it is all sex, are you really saying that only anal sex is wrong between two men? That God would parse out perversion in this way? What is the biological purpose of oral sex between two men, what biological purpose does that type of sex serve that God designed it that way? Lying with a man as you point out is sex, and it is shown in this verse to be something that people who are saved do not engage in. Once again clear and consistent guidance on sexual relations that please God and those that do not.

Our bodies were designed by God to compliment each other. Men were given sperm, women were given eggs, this is how God designed us and as shown in the numerous passages we have quoted from Genesis through 1 Corinthians, a man and a women were made for each other naturally.