Have the gifts of the Holy Spirit ceased?

[Dave123]

1. There was one era of miracles that covered the lifespan of Moses and Joshua.

2. There was a second that spanned the ministries of Elijah and Elisha.

3. The third, the greatest era of miracles that occurred during the time of Christ and the Apostles.

With the exception of a few, such as Samson and a few others, there are three time frames where miracles were common in scripture and they are listed above, each being about one hundred years.

Double standard. And the burden is on the Cessationist to show something better than the "perfect" to change what is clearly taught in Scripture, and demanded by Jesus.

Scud, we have shown. The burdon is on the non-cessationist to not ignore our proof and answer it honestly.

What is a miracle, scud?

God bless

Dave

[Botz]

Let me just get something clear as I ponder these things.

Believe G-d for the miraculous

Pray constantly for the sick

Seek to prophecy

Pray privately in heavenly languages

Move in the gift of Knowledge

And the Gift of Wisdom

Cast out demons

Seek to discern by the Spirit

Operate in supernatural faith

Have visions and dreams

That is not exhaustive but a reasonable resume of how the early Church operated under the direction of the Holy Ghost.

I can only say that any group of people operating in this fashion are a fairer reflection of how the early Church functioned....and those that do not are in a far weaker position both biblically and experientially...and there is absolutely no point in saying these things have ceased when even Balaams ass can see that they haven't and that G-d is performing even greater demonstrations of His power through the Body by the power of the Holy Ghost.

In answer to your question I would think a miracle is when someone is raised from the dead...or when eyes grow back into empty eye-sockets...or anything that is beyond natural possibility.

[johnP]

Hello Botz.

I used to know a man that read all the biographies of the great men of faith, great men will do. He lapped it up and thought everyone calling themselves Christian should behave like they did.

He failed to see that these books concentrate on the persons acheivements and not the other 99% of their lives.

That is not exhaustive but a reasonable resume of how the early Church operated under the direction of the Holy Ghost.

Now there is no way you can substantiate this statement and there is no way I can prove it wrong. But I think it unreasonable to imagine the early Church operated like this if you mean the whole Church all the time. They would have run out of demons to cast out pretty fast and sick to heal! Then they would not be doing it. So they would not be operating as you say.

I can only say that any group of people operating in this fashion are a fairer reflection of how the early Church functioned....

What this does is pull the Church down. It does not edify and you can't be certain of your statement.

...and those that do not are in a far weaker position both biblically and experientially...

You have your failings don't you? We are here to learn from each other. To help each other and to lift the Church high. You only put peoples backs up this way.

I have learnt from this topic. I have started to push the eldership of my Church to take their healing ministry seriously. I will not use your words to do it because I find them judgemental. Right may be but wrong.

johnp.

[Botz]

I understand the time-scale thing you mention John...and that is a fair comment...but also we can readily suppose that what is recorded is only a minute fragment of what was going on.

QUOTE 

I can only say that any group of people operating in this fashion are a fairer reflection of how the early Church functioned....

What this does is pull the Church down. It does not edify and you can't be certain of your statement.

I can't really see how this pulls the Church down...I was really contrasting it against some of the limp powerless images of the Church that have been promoted elsewhere on this thread...which is the antithesis of what is presented to us in the New Covenant writings.

You have your failings don't you? We are here to learn from each other. To help each other and to lift the Church high. You only put peoples backs up this way.

I have learnt from this topic. I have started to push the eldership of my Church to take their healing ministry seriously. I will not use your words to do it because I find them judgemental. Right may be but wrong.

At times I may put a few peoples backs up.... sometimes...it can't be helped.

If I am judgemental I apologize...I may come across that way and it is a weakness...may G-d forgive me and change me. I truely want the best for people and sometimes in my eagerness to shake people out of what I perceive is unbelief or pride...I try and take on the work of the Holy Ghost...more fool me...and yes I have many failings and feel free to point them out anytime my brother in Messiah...and I hope I have the grace to repent and cry out for the Holy Ghost to mould me into better man.

[Scudbuddy]

Dave said,

"Your meaning is incorrect and undefendable. If we apply your definition to the perfect, then what Paul would be saying is that spiritual gifts are for immature Christians. Is that what you mean? If not, please explain."

Scudbuddy replys,

Paul had to correct the Corinthian church who excelled in the gifts, but showed much immaturity, and sin and a lack of order. With all of that going on, we do not see Paul trying to eliminate or limit the gifts, but just mature the church.

The gifts aren't a reward system for those who are "mature", but a spiritual weapon to destroy the works of darkness. Some of the greatest miracles I have seen have taken place with the prayers of children.

Now as to my definition of miracles and healing.

When someone is healed of a sickness through supernatural means, they have been healed.

A miracle is harder to classify. Why? Because when we see a healing, most say the word "miracle", but I hold to the fact that miracles are like what happened to Elijah or Moses. Something different from the gift of healing which of course is a physical healing, but Paul seperated it from healing.

I know of some incredible miracles including what has happened in my life before my eyes. But experiences are discredited in this discussion as worthless to the topic. So I leave that part of my life that Revelation describes as a weapon that overcomes, and turn to logic and reason. ("They overcame by the blood of the Lamb, and the word of their TESTIMONY!")

Now as to the listings of miracles, I cannot honestly say that I saw the argument as to being only about human agency. Remember, I am having several discussions with Neb, John, and yourself about this. It isn't always easy to keep track of whom stands where. You three, though all Cessationist, are all quite different in your belief of this teaching. I therefore have probaly addressed one about the others response without realizing it. Sorry.

Now, there are some humans involved outside of the 3 spans you talk about. Including Adam, Gideon, Enoch, Samson, Nathan, David, Daniel, Meshach, Shadrach, and Abendego, Abraham, Joseph, and some others. I pulled that list from the top of my head. I believe within that group we will find miracles of some sort or another happening, and they represent a huge portion of time. Now, it is true there are 3 periods in which multiple miracles took place at the behest of the prophets and saints.

I think that it is assumed that that means that miracles were only for those 3 periods. First no reference in scripture stresses this belief system, or even mentions it. And as I show above, it isn't even true that miracles didn't take place at other times. The number of miracles has nothing to do with eliminating miracles altogether no matter what. But no one can say that miracles only took place during three periods. It just isn't true.

As to Cessationist showing something other than the "perfect" as evidence, what is it? I have seen nothing else, and the perfect is referring to man no matter how much you like it. That is what it means in the greek. You or I can't change it. You can't make it into a book. That would be messing with the word.

[Nebuchadnezza10]

Neb,

Remember context. You see, a little while later in Acts 10:44-48, the proof that they were filled with the Holy Spirit was what? Want a hint? You won't like it. Tongues!

I have explained this passage.

The gentiles in Acts 10 and the apostles where the only people to receive the Gifts in this miraculous outpouring. The apostles, and the gentiles of Acts 10 and 11 received the Gifts from God in a miraculous way, as a one-off. In Act 11:15 it says that

Edited October 8, 2004 by Nebuchadnezza10

[Scudbuddy]

I speak in tongues. Often. I would give you my testimony about such, but that which overcomes the world doesn't matter at all to you. "They overcame them by the blood of the lamb, and the word of their testimony." Notice it didn't say anything about them overcoming by reading the word to them. It didn't say a word about the NT being the weapon that overcame the enemy. It is just my testimony. Nothing important. I am sure it is just an oversight on Johns part to give such an important place to experience.

My point about the Holy Spirit being on someone and the proof of it was that the disciples said that the proof was that they spoke in tongues. Somehow you seem to think that works against me because Paul laid hands on them. Big deal. Show me the verse that says Paul or the disciples have to lay hands on you. Don't show me your presumptions from books that Paul wrote about laying hands on people. Show me the verse that says that it can only be done by apostles. Only.

And then show even your fellow Cessationist the verse that clearly shows that demons have no power to possess anyone anymore. Please leave out the "Well if you cross the t with an elevated mark, you will find that it is the pronoun of the word and therefore leaves us with only understanding that we are right and those who read it in plain english are wrong" kind of answer. Somehow that goes over everybodys head but yours. That way when the word Telios comes up, you won't confuse anybody with that crossed T business.

Oh, and your discounting all of our experiences in the name of correct hermeneutics is just fine and dandy with some folks. Most of us though thought that when we saw Jesus heal the sick in front of us, it actually was important. That maybe in spite of all the logic and reason and crossing of T's out there, just maybe they were wrong, and the plain english bibles were right. "These signs shall follow those who BELIEVE." And to those who didn't, they shouldn't worry about it. They probaly won't see too many miracles.

[johnP]

"They overcame them by the blood of the lamb, and the word of their testimony."

It is just my testimony. Nothing important. I am sure it is just an oversight on Johns part to give such an important place to experience.

You mean unimportant? Then you would be wrong. What was their testimony Scudbuddy. I don't think it was their own testimony, the testimony of things they done but what they believed. Their confession of faith. Their testimony was Jesus Christ and Him crucified.

I don't disbelieve your witness of what you have seen. That would not be right as I have come to know you a bit. I don't believe the witness of a second person that you pass on but I am not called to. I believe that God still works as He ever did. '...we do not see Paul trying to eliminate or limit the gifts... is indisputable. He never hinted at any gifts would vanish. In fact the thought that God would give a gift and then take it away again leaves my salvation in doubt. He may take that away as well. If it is a gift it belongs to us.

But nowhere does it say that faith will be produced by telling anyone of your experience. What that would mean is that your words save. To see family or friends being healed is useful in evangelism but it must be direct and verifiable and then it is only an aid. It is the word of God that converts and nothing else.

Remember, I am having several discussions with Neb, John, and yourself about this. It isn't always easy to keep track of whom stands where.

Gets complicated don't it?

The number of miracles has nothing to do with eliminating miracles altogether no matter what.

Absolutely right but you keep sending me into one camp then you send me into another. If I believe miracles are at a low ebb does that make me cessationist?

As to Cessationist showing something other than the "perfect" as evidence, what is it?

Nothing else has been offered I think. Your miles ahead but you rely too much on what you have seen and that detracts from the scriptural evidence. When you say people's eyeballs have been put back in it is too incredulous to take your word for. I believe the Creator can do as He pleases but this I have to see with my own eyeballs.

Mind you, I think I shall retract an earlier boast of mine and give the title over to you and Neb. I must say Neb that is an impressively long post. You could get that donkey up and walking long before me!

johnp.

[Botz]

Neb...

QUOTE

Prophecy was a direct revelation from God. We have all the revelation we need for righteousness in the BIBLE! The bible itself claims that it is all we need!

Botz....

It is an unbelievable position to try and maintain that the gifts of the Holy Ghost have ceased because we now have perfect Scriptures that furnish us with all we need to live rightoeus lives. Yes the Bible contains that...but it also spells out for us that G-d has given gifts to His Church...they equip us to deal with what is at work in the world ...namely the spiritual darkness....because we do not fight against flesh and blood....people still need healing,delivering and setting free and that is part of why we as the body of Christ on earth now will do greater things than he did when alive and confined to the likeness of sinful flesh to one small area in the world.

Neb...The bible equips us to deal with what is at work in the world. It is a complete guide. The gifts where not.

Furthermore you keep saying that our fight is not against flesh and blood. Well most of the gifts where a physical ability. Tongues and healing for example.

The point I am trying to make is that we are born again spiritual people who should now learn how to move in a spiritual dimension that does not give in when physical or spiritual manifestations seem to point that way...we are equipped by the Holy Ghost to push through so that we can pray for people and see cancers healed...twisted limbs straightened....blind eyes opened. If we are carnal Christians we are not open to the gifts and we have no experience of the reality of these things...rather we might comfort the person dying of cancer but have no real faith to pray for them to be healed....the man with the twisted leg and club foot might elicit compassion and make us pay for a brace for his leg...or an operation...but not to pray that it is untwisted and made normal...and the blind person we might lend an arm to so that they might cross the road or buy a guide dog.

All of these things are good...and we should be helpful, thoughtful and compassionate...but in a sense we have a duty to be all that we can to those lost in sin and darkness and not shrink back from ministering the love of G-d to them through the gifts of the Holy Ghost.

QUOTE  The Bible and miracles do not have interchangeable functions. The Bible presents the Word of God in written form, but God still uses miracles, signs, and spiritual gifts to confirm the Word (Mark 16:20; Hebrews 2:4).

QUOTE

Neb...The word has been confirmed and no longer needs to have continual confirmation.

Botz...You have got to be kidding me...on what authority do you say that G-d does not continually confirm His word...or for that matter confirm His Church?...unbelievable !!

Neb...1 Cor 13. and the fact that the apostles could only pass on the gifts. So its not so unbelievable after all!

That is just not true. Although at times the Holy Ghost was ministered to people through the laying on of hands...there is no where that it says this was the only way for people to receive the Spirit or the gifts. In fact there is ample room for the Holy Spirit to use various people or do it sovereignly.

1Corinthians 12:7 But to each one is given the showing forth of the Spirit to our profit.

1Co 12:8 For through the Spirit is given to one a word of wisdom; and to another a word of knowledge, according to the same Spirit;

1Co 12:9 and to another faith by the same Spirit; and to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

1Co 12:10 and to another workings of powers, to another prophecy; and to another discerning of spirits; and to another kinds of tongues; and to another the interpretation of tongues.

1Co 12:11 But the one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing separately to each one as He desires.

QUOTE...Botz.. 

What we are not told to do is bury our head in the sand when presented with overwhelming personal testimony or to dismiss out of hand what G-d is doing throughout the earth through the work of the Holy Ghost....as far as I can see this denotes both pride and unbelief and is a hinderance and a stumbling block.

Neb...Ok, then that means you cannot dismiss my personal testimonies about how the gifts have ceased. If you do then you are proud and an unbeliever?

I weigh up carefully what everybody says Neb...and I try not to dismiss out of hand what is presented.

The big difference is that I have seen the evidence of the Holy Ghost so many times that I never give it another thought...my expectancy level is always to expect to be led by the Spirit and see Him work in peoples lives all the time..Your lack of evidence does not exist...my evidence does.

QUOTE  Scud...Signs win the lost faster than any argument given by Cessationist to come to Jesus. I know that if I came to your country and took two days to set up a meeting to preach, all the while you had months to prepare your meeting, and we set it up on the same day; the people if they knew you were a cessationist and I was not, they would flock to my meeting, and you would get a handful of people like yourself. Men who for some reason in a Third World country excused the works of the Holy Spirit. Men who are bound to the memories of the fake to disprove the real. This is fact, and not opinion.

QUOTE

Neb...What

[Scudbuddy]

"They overcame them by the blood of the lamb, and the word of their testimony."

It is just my testimony. Nothing important. I am sure it is just an oversight on Johns part to give such an important place to experience.

You mean unimportant? Then you would be wrong. What was their testimony Scudbuddy. I don't think it was their own testimony, the testimony of things they done but what they believed. Their confession of faith. Their testimony was Jesus Christ and Him crucified.

I don't disbelieve your witness of what you have seen. That would not be right as I have come to know you a bit. I don't believe the witness of a second person that you pass on but I am not called to. I believe that God still works as He ever did. '...we do not see Paul trying to eliminate or limit the gifts... is indisputable. He never hinted at any gifts would vanish. In fact the thought that God would give a gift and then take it away again leaves my salvation in doubt. He may take that away as well. If it is a gift it belongs to us.

But nowhere does it say that faith will be produced by telling anyone of your experience. What that would mean is that your words save. To see family or friends being healed is useful in evangelism but it must be direct and verifiable and then it is only an aid. It is the word of God that converts and nothing else.

Remember, I am having several discussions with Neb, John, and yourself about this. It isn't always easy to keep track of whom stands where.

Gets complicated don't it?

The number of miracles has nothing to do with eliminating miracles altogether no matter what.

Absolutely right but you keep sending me into one camp then you send me into another. If I believe miracles are at a low ebb does that make me cessationist?

As to Cessationist showing something other than the "perfect" as evidence, what is it?

Nothing else has been offered I think. Your miles ahead but you rely too much on what you have seen and that detracts from the scriptural evidence. When you say people's eyeballs have been put back in it is too incredulous to take your word for. I believe the Creator can do as He pleases but this I have to see with my own eyeballs.

Mind you, I think I shall retract an earlier boast of mine and give the title over to you and Neb. I must say Neb that is an impressively long post. You could get that donkey up and walking long before me!

johnp.

John 4 tells us that the Samaritan woman went back to her people and told them all Jesus had said. Her experience seemed to be important to those people and to the NT. They all came back to hear Jesus for themselves. What had Jesus done. Word of knowledge. "He told me all things about myself."

"Jesus confirmed the word with signs and wonders." Why did Jesus need to do such things? Why is that generation so lucky to have it made so clear. Please don't tell me since we have the word, this generation can now see it clearly. This generation won't read the word because they have seen no reason (or proof of the need) to.

Apostles did the same thing.

Philip did the same thing.

Neb keeps on saying "My bad experiences cancel out your good ones." They don't do any such thing. I believe he had those bad experiences. The Bible tells us of the fakes. I believe him. He is my brother in Christ, and I have no reason not to. He is neither crazy or a liar. He is just a sceptic with theology for an excuse.

But when I and so many others tell him of how God healed the sick before our very eyes when we prayed for them, it is a non-factor. Isn't important at all. Has nothing to do with the facts.

It is very important that these stories be kept out of the equation. It makes him and his theology wrong. This is why when he argues from that stance it is frustrating. If we knew that what we saw had a lot of holes in it, or was just a plain lie, that would be something different. But since we know what we have experienced, and we have had the word confirmed to us in that experience, it is frustrating for us to hear from Cessationist, "It means nothing."

Would it mean nothing if you saw a miracle take place right before your eyes after a brother prayed for that miracle? Would you say, "ahh but where in Scripture is that allowed?" Especially when the theology against it is "perfect" which from my greek is "mature man." Somehow Neb thinks it is about the NT in spite of it saying clearly something else. That crossing the T business.

Here is how it stands with me. I know God heals the sick. It would be ungrateful hardness of heart for me to say different. He has healed every member of my family many times, and many of my friends. I have seen Him heal hundreds overseas and in my church and churches across the nations. So I could care less what Neb believes because of his unbelief or lack of experience. It does not matter to me. It is worthless words dribbling out of his mouth. For me, it is too late. I know that Jesus heals. There is not a word that could be said to change my mind. Especially since the Word plainly encourages that very belief, and only screwing with the text like Cessationism does even comes close to bringing an argument that is shot down immediately by my already seeing the evidence that they are wrong.

This is what I will give the Cessationist. Overseas, the evidence is so strong that you have to have had your heart seared to not believe. In America, we Pentecostals operate too much like the Western Empirical mindset around us, and have swallowed their arguments. We have not given enough reason for Cessationist to belive here. That is our failings in life. We will answer for it one day. But hope is on the way. Churches across this nation are beginning to EXPERIENCE a new outpouring of healing, miracles, prophetic unction, etc....... that is going to seperate Cessationist in two ways. Once they see the proof, they will either hardened their hearts or join us. I am believing for the latter.

But until then, their argument literally means nothing to me. I am just trying to keep others from swallowing unbelief without a fight.