oh hmm evolution

[Happy Forever]

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

There is no word without being from one.

No word is a god cuz word needs someone to make it.

If your god is a word and with a beginning,

Allah is Owner of all things in the heavens and the earth, He made everything with one word of two letters "Kon كن, Be".

Allah is The First with no beginning.

Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.

Allah is not parts, He is Self Existent.

Joh 1:3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.

All things made by Him and without Him nothing was and is made.

Joh 1:4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men.

Life is not light, darkness comes from the life of some.

255. Allah. There is no god except He, The Ever-Living, The Superb Upright Sustainer. Slumber does

not overtake Him, nor sleep; to Him (belongs) whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the

earth. Who is there that intercedes for His Providence except by His Permission? He knows

whatever is in front of them (Literally: between their hands) and whatever is behind them, and they

do not encompass anything of His Knowledge except whatever He has decided. His Chair embraces

the heavens and the earth; the preserving of them (Literally: them both) does not tire Him; and He is

The Ever-Exalted, The Ever-Magnificent.

[2:255] Surat The Cow

Edited September 19, 2011 by Happy Forever

[Happy Forever]

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

There is no word without being from one.

No word is a god cuz word needs someone to make it.

If your god is a word and with a beginning,

Allah is Owner of all things in the heavens and the earth, He made everything with one word of two letters "Kon كن, Be".

Allah is The First with no beginning.

Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.

Allah is not parts, He is Self Existent.

Joh 1:3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.

All things made by Him and without Him nothing was and is made.

Joh 1:4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men.

Life is not light, darkness comes from the life of some.

255. Allah. There is no god except He, The Ever-Living, The Superb Upright Sustainer. Slumber does

not overtake Him, nor sleep; to Him (belongs) whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the

earth. Who is there that intercedes for His Providence except by His Permission? He knows

whatever is in front of them (Literally: between their hands) and whatever is behind them, and they

do not encompass anything of His Knowledge except whatever He has decided. His Chair embraces

the heavens and the earth; the preserving of them (Literally: them both) does not tire Him; and He is

The Ever-Exalted, The Ever-Magnificent.

[2:255] Surat The Cow

Edited September 19, 2011 by Happy Forever

[Guest]

Fear God

And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? Revelation 6:14-17

Grasshopper

Have ye not known? have ye not heard? hath it not been told you from the beginning? have ye not understood from the foundations of the earth?

It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

That bringeth the princes to nothing; he maketh the judges of the earth as vanity.

Yea, they shall not be planted; yea, they shall not be sown: yea, their stock shall not take root in the earth: and he shall also blow upon them, and they shall wither, and the whirlwind shall take them away as stubble.

To whom then will ye liken me, or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One.

Lift up your eyes on high, and behold who hath created these things, that bringeth out their host by number: he calleth them all by names by the greatness of his might, for that he is strong in power; not one faileth.

Why sayest thou, O Jacob, and speakest, O Israel, My way is hid from the LORD, and my judgment is passed over from my God?

Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? there is no searching of his understanding.

He giveth power to the faint; and to them that have no might he increaseth strength. Isaiah 40:21-29

Fear

Behold, he that keepeth Israel shall neither slumber nor sleep. Psalms 121:4

____________

255. Allah. There is no god except He, The Ever-Living, The Superb Upright Sustainer. Slumber does

not overtake Him, nor sleep; to Him (belongs) whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the

earth. Who is there that intercedes for His Providence except by His Permission? He knows

whatever is in front of them (Literally: between their hands) and whatever is behind them, and they

do not encompass anything of His Knowledge except whatever He has decided. His Chair embraces

the heavens and the earth; the preserving of them (Literally: them both) does not tire Him; and He is

The Ever-Exalted, The Ever-Magnificent.

[2:255] Surat The Cow

One God

Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. Isaiah 44:6

One

For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called. Isaiah 54:5

And He Will Return

For thus saith the LORD of hosts; After the glory hath he sent me unto the nations which spoiled you: for he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of his eye. For, behold, I will shake mine hand upon them, and they shall be a spoil to their servants: and ye shall know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me.

Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the LORD. And many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day, and shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto thee. Zephaniah 2:8-11

____________

Dear One

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. John 14:6

Are You Ready

Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 2 Timothy 3:7

Really?

The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 3:35:36

____________

Believe

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:9-10

And Be Blessed Beloved

Love, Joe

[Guest]

Sorry, I don't mean insulting of course, Jesus is my Prophet and a brother to my Prophet.

Of Course Dear One You Did Not Insult My Jesus, For Your Jesus

Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. John 10:36-38

Is Not The LORD Jesus The Risen Kindsmen-Redeemer

Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. 1 Corinthians 12:3

Nor Do You Believe His Words

For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.

For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. Romans 14:8-12

Yet

____________

_________

______

___

Jesus Prays

These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. John 17:1-5

Beloved

And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren?

And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!

For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother. Mark 3:33-35

Can you Hear

For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:38-40

Can You Hear Him Now?

Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. Revelation 3:20

If You Can't Hear The Truth, Mourn Before Heaven

Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.

Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth. Matthew 5:3-5

And All Of Worthy Is Praying for You And Your Brothers Beloved Muslin

In The Holy Name Of Jesus

Amen~!

____________

_________

______

___

Believe

For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. John 5:26-29

And Be Blessed Beloved

Love, Joe

[Dragoon]

Salaam Alaikuum again Happy,

might I suggest that we each pray before continuing.

Wa Alikom Assalam, respectful brother.

It is my pleasure and honor to debate you.

May Allah protect you and grant you His paradise. Amen

I asked:

1) Were the Injil, Torat and Zaboor from God in their original form?

If so, then how can man pervert what is from God? Cannot God protect His own Words?

Happy Forever answered:

1) Yes, they were

You assume that [2:79] refers to the Christians and the Jews though.

Might I remind you that in the days before Mohammed (pbuh), there were false people who wrote things that they ascribed to God, but were not. These texts fall under the title of 'pseudepigrapha', and they were denounced and their writings were condemned.

Jews and Christians have trusted in God to protect what is His, but we have also been dilligent in protecting in ourselves.

Be careful that you do not read more than what is written brother.

(I call you brother in the sense that we are both creations of the only God, not implying that we share the same beliefs... though hopefully we both desire to follow God faithfully.)

I call you brother because we all brothers and sisters in humanity with one father (Adam) and one mother (Eve 'Hawwa").

I didn't assume that Christians and Jews are mentioned in Quran, I assure that these words never mentioned in Quran.

What you say about 'pseudepigrapha' is not related at all. I am taking about the Turah and Injeel the two books of Allah sent to Moses and Jesus.

Do you know that the Quran is the light and mercy which lightens the whole world? Quran is a source of knowledge, history, science and language.

Do you know that we Arabs learn Arabic from Quran and set grammar rules according to Quran.

By Quran, history is clear. Read these Ayats the translation of Quran:

44. Surely We sent down the Tawrah, wherein there is a guidance and a light, thereby the Prophets who had become Muslims (who surrendered to Allah) gave judgment to the ones who were guided (Yahood), and (so) did the rabbis and the priests, according to whatever they were asked to preserve of the Book of Allah, and were witnesses to. So do not be apprehensive of mankind, and be apprehensive of Me, and do not trade My Ayats for a little price. And whoever does not judge according to what Allah has sent down, then those are they (who are) the disbelievers.

45. And therein We prescribed for them, “The self for the self, and the eye for the eye, and the nose for the nose, and the ear for the ear, and the tooth for the tooth, and for wounds retaliation. So, whoever donates it, (i.e., remits the penalty or the retaliation as alms “a free-will offering”) then it is an expiation for him. And whoever does not judge according to what Allah has sent down, then those are they (who are) the unjust.”

46. And We made to supervene on their tracks Isa son of Maryam, (Jesus son of Mary) sincerely verifying whatever of the Tawrah between his two hands (was before him), and We brought him the Injil, wherein there is a guidance and a light, and sincerely verifying whatever of the Tawrah was before him, and a guidance and an admonition to the pious.

47. And let the people of the Injil judge according to what Allah has sent down therein. And whoever does not judge according to what Allah has sent down, then those are they (who are) the immoral.

48. And We have sent down to you the Book with the Truth, sincerely verifying whatever of the Book that was before it, (Literally: between its two hands) and Supremely Hegemonic over it. So judge between them according to what Allah has sent down, and do not ever follow their prejudices away from the Truth that has come to you. To every one of you We have made a legislation and a program. And if Allah had so decided, He would indeed have made you one nation; but (He did not) that He may try you in what He has brought you. So race with each other in the charitable (deeds); to Allah will be your return, altogether; so He will fully inform you of that wherein you used to differ.

49. And (that) you should judge between them according to what Allah has sent down. And do not ever follow their prejudices, and beware of them (lest) they tempt you away from some (part) of what Allah has sent down to you. So, in case they turn away, then know that Allah wills only to afflict them for some of their guilty deeds; and surely many of mankind are indeed immoral.

[5:44:49]

This is the perfect answer for your questions.

Here Allah says that He sent the Tawrah as light and guidance the source of rules executed by the prophets and Yahood (followers of Moses) and rabbis and priests who surrendered to Allah (Muslims). He ordered them as He orders us to keep His words and to judge accordingly and not to buy his words for cheap price.

In the second ayah(45), Allah inform us part of the law He set in Tawrah which is "eye with eye...." and it is our law too.

In Ayah (46), Allah tells us about Isa (Jesus) Who verified the Turah and Allah sent to Him the Injeel as a light and guidance.

In Ayah (47), Allah says that He ordered the followers of Jesus (people of Injeel) to follow their book.

In Ayah (48), Allah is talking to Muhammad and to us saying that we should judge according to (follow) Quran and not to follow the prejudice of the current Yahood and Nassara. Allah says "To everyone (Muslims, Yahood 'Jews', Nassarah 'Christians'), a legislation and an approach. Allah would indeed make us one nation with one religion but He didn't as He made this life for test.

In the last Ayah (49), Allah is talking to messenger Muhammad telling him to judge between people of the book according to Quran and not to follow their prejudice and take care of their fancies.

I think this translation showed you the great words of Quran and it answers all your questions.

One important thing I have to underline is:

When Allah talked about the followers of Jesus at his time, He called them "people of Injeel" not Nassara not Christians.

The followers of Moses after his era were called Yahood not during his era and this is a an important historical assertion. Moses himself was not a Yahoodi but a Muslim as the first Ayah said.

The followers of Jesus were called "the disciples" at his era, after him they were called Nassara as Jesus himself was not Nasrani but a Muslim as the first Ayah said.

Now you are called Jews and Christians, why?

What are the meanings of Muslim, Yahood, Nassara, Jews and Christians?

This what Quran records from history and this is a witness against you.

Muslim: means who submits to The One God.

Yahood: plural of Yahoodi means who was guided.

Nassara: plural of Nasrani means helper,supporter, vendicator.

Why Yahood became the name of the followers of Moses peace be upon him? Because after they repent from their grieve sin which is worshipping the calf, Allah accept their repentance and guided them to His path (Yahodi means guided).

Why Nassara became the name of the followers of Jesus peace be upon him? Because Jesus told them once "So, as soon as Isa (Jesus) perceived disbelief among them, he said, “Who are my ready vindicators to Allah?” (i.e., in the cause of Allah) The Disciples said, ” We are the ready vindicators to Allah; we have believed in Allah, and bear (you) witness that we are Muslims." [3:52] (Nasrani means vendicator)

And these were your names till the era of Prophet Muuhammad peace be upon him and these were their books till the era of prophet muhammad, what happened then?

The holders of the books (popes and priests) hid them cuz they wouldn't apply their rules following their kings to gain cheap price. Then kings after kings, these copies were forbidden and burnt and who have a copy was killed. Then people started to search for the books to find nothing but writings of humans collected from anywhere and searched for a new name which is "bible" (means book).

Yahood and Nassara at that time (after the era of prophet Muhammad) changed their respectful names to meaningless ones which are Jews and Christians.

What is the meaning of Jew?

Who belongs to Judah a country.

What is the meaning of Christian?

Who belongs to the anointed one.

Sorry for the long post.

Your sister,

Happy Forever

Note: these are translation of the Quran not the Quran itself (Quran is not bible, you don't know the original copy and the original language and consider the translation and people quotes as god words). The Holy words of Allah are the words in Quran.

Wa Alaikuum Salaam Happy Forever,

I am fine with dialoging with you, but you need to read and consider what I post as well, and not to merely jump into your own points

Please allow me to remind you to pray before we continue our discussion of God.

----------------------

First of all, let me say that if I believed the Quran was from God, then I would be a Muslim without hesitation. It is my desire to serve God wherever He may lead.

It is precisely because of this though that I must reject the Quran as from God (though there may be sections of it which are inspired by God, as evidenced by their agreement with the books that came before).

May we begin by looking at some of the assertions you make?

1) "bible, you don't know the original copy and the original language and consider the translation and people quotes as god words"

With respect, this is silly, and if you learned this at Al Azhar then your professors need to be beaten for teaching such obvious falsehoods.

The Bible is not a single book, but rather a collection of writings. This is why the sections of the Bible are called 'Books', because each was a letter or piece of writing on its own before they were compiled into one cover.

As to language, the language of the Pentateuch (Taurat), the Psalms (Zaboor) and other Old Testament texts were almost entirely in Hebrew, the language of Moses and King David. The New Testament (Injil) was written in Aramaic and Kione Greek.

How do we know this?

Because we have original manuscripts and manuscript pieces of these.

The Injil for example has about 5,300 different surviving manuscripts (not all are complete) in Greek, with over 10,000 additional copies in Latin, and several thousand more in other languages.

These are not 'different' Injils (Gospels/New Testaments), but faithful copies of the same one.

We have the translation as well of course, but we have the original documents to check them against.... thousands of copies of the same original documents!

2) Yahood and Nassara

I think you are confused here. These are the Arabic names for the Jewish people and for Christians.

"Yahood and Nassara at that time (after the era of prophet Muhammad) changed their respectful names to meaningless ones which are Jews and Christians."

Jew is merely the English pronounciation of the Hebrew name which the Jews called themselves (יְהוּדִים which can be rendered as Yhudim). That name can be found in archaelogy and in literature long before the time you mention.

You might note that Christian starts with the word 'Christ', which is the Kione Greek for Messiah. The Injil was largely written originally in Kione Greek, which was the common trade language of the day. While the followers of Jesus originally called themselves 'Followers of the Way" (because it is written that Jesus is "the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me (Jesus) (The Gospel of John 14:6)), but the name 'Christian' was first used for them in Antioch around 60-62 AD.

So for a whole year Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people. The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch. (The Book of Acts 11:26)

The word Christian in the original Greek is Χριστιανός (christianos) which means 'follower of Christ'.

Pliny the Younger (61- about 112 AD) writing to the Emperor Trajan writes,"Those who denied that they were or had been Christians, when they invoked the gods in words dictated by me, offered prayer with incense and wine to your image, which I had ordered to be brought for this purpose together with statues of the gods, and moreover cursed Christ — none of which those who are really Christians, it is said, can be forced to do — these I thought should be discharged."

The Roman historian Tacitus (56-117 AD) writes, "Nero fastened the guilt of starting the blaze and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians [Chrestians] by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators

So not only do these words have clear meaning, but they were not changed after the time of Mohammed (pbuh).

The evidence of this exists in both archaeology and literature, and is easily verified.

I could go on with other mistakes in your writing, but I hope this is enough to show that what you say the Quran teaches you is false.

So why cannot I accept the Quran as coming from God?

Part of the reason is that what it teaches is wrong, as can be verified from history and writing.

Sister, I told you at the beginning that I would become a Muslim if I believed the Quran were from God. This is because I seek to follow God truely.

Can you say the same? If Jesus, the Son of God, is revealed to you as God... would you follow Him even if it might mean suffering or even death for you?

"Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”

Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”

Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father.

(The Gospel of John 14:6-9)

"About noon, O king, as I was on the road, I saw a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, blazing around me and my companions. We all fell to the ground, and I heard a voice saying to me in Aramaic, ‘Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’

“Then I asked, ‘Who are you, Lord?’

“‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,’ the Lord replied. ‘Now get up and stand on your feet. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen of me and what I will show you. I will rescue you from your own people and from the Gentiles. I am sending you to them to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’

(The Book of Acts 26:13-18)

[OldEnglishSheepdog]

I know.

But the revelation of the Quran was supposedly from Allah, through Gabriel, to Muhammad, who then dictated the words, and the Hadith is supposedly the authoritative lens through which these words are supposed to be interpreted, correct?

No, you know nothing or the opposite.

I know nothing, or the opposite?

The opposite of nothing is everything.

So either I know nothing or everything?

Since obviously neither of these things are true, I'm forced to conclude that you speak without concern for truth.

More's the pity that you actually follow the conviction of your religion.

Tell people here from where you got this false information. I know, ha.

If this makes sense to you, then you might just be alone, but all you're doing is demonstrating that you're unwilling to actually even try to engage in any kind of meaningful interaction.

Your ignorance and arrogance make you think that you know Islam more than Muslims?!!!!!

My arrogance in quoting the Quran and pointing things out about it?

Certainly you'd interpret that as arrogance, because in your religion a dhimmi has no right to question Islam.

Guess what? You're not on a forum that supports that.

I am an Islam scholar graduated from Al Azhar.

Nobody cares.

I know Islam and Judaism and Christianity more than you.

It's pretty easy to say something, but you'll find that it's vastly more difficult to prove that it is so.

I've noticed that you're not even trying to prove anything so far.

I wish I could express suprise.

What surfaces here, however, is your deliberate deceit.

In claiming to be an Islamic scholar you have revealed that either you're lying about being one, or you were lying before about not being familiar with the doctrine of Taqiyya, with which you couldn't be unfamiliar as an Islamic scholar.

Boy, that didn't take long to demonstrate. Next time try to be a little bit more consistent so you can play your game for a post or two longer before getting caught contradicting yourself.

Do you know what is the meaning of Allah, Islam, Muslim, Quran, Muhammad??

Yes, it is Satanism.

How and you even don't know what is the meaning of Christianity, Christian, Jesus, god, bible!

So now the Muslim is even in charge of electing the criteria of Christianity for Christians?

This is crazy talk.

Are you asking me? or are you guessing? Or are you a weapon moved by another hand?

On a Christian forum you're trying to draw suspicion that a Christian defending the faith might be doing so for sinister motives?

This is delusional.

How about at least pretending to try to defend your position?

[OldEnglishSheepdog]

Any way, I will tell you.

Goodie.

The Munificent Quran is the... blah blah blah

Do you think Quran is like your bible??

No. The Quran was written by Satan.

The Quran is the Arabic one version.

Do you think this translation is Quran?!

Then you don't know what is the meaning of Quran and even know nothing at all.

These countless... blah blah blah...

Then you know nothing at all.

Sorry, what? - I zoned out there.

Never mind, I'm not going to bother to read it anyways.

If you can't be bothered to respond to what I wrote then I'm most certainly not going to chase after you on some delusional Red Herring fallacy.

Let you or the one who deceive you play with the different false and weak translations, feel rest. They all are not Quran.

If you says so then it must be true... except you subscribed to lying, so it's actually demonstrably more likely false.

Any translation I sent you is near to the meaning but not the full meaning and will never be.

To interprete one small Ayah consisted of two words and deliver its meaning, it would take a full page even the meaning will not be fully.

The Quran is the only perfect book in the universe and no one on earth can produce the like of it.

You are deceived.

Search for the truth by yourself and don't let yourself feeded.

I've just been feeded a whole load of nonsense right here.

I've proved my point with you.

Bye.

[Happy Forever]

Wa Alaikuum Salaam Happy Forever,

I am fine with dialoging with you, but you need to read and consider what I post as well, and not to merely jump into your own points

Please allow me to remind you to pray before we continue our discussion of God.

----------------------

Allow me to start with the best start "Bism Allah Arrahman Arraheem"

I do pray for you and would like to hear your prayer.

I do consider every word and feel you do the same. And that's why you have wide knowledge.

Hello my brother Dragoon,

First of all, let me say that if I believed the Quran was from God, then I would be a Muslim without hesitation. It is my desire to serve God wherever He may lead.

I hope you are sincere as you say and seek the truth wherever it is, this is what I do and the way I chose.

`

May we begin by looking at some of the assertions you make?

1) "bible, you don't know the original copy and the original language and consider the translation and people quotes as god words"

With respect, this is silly, and if you learned this at Al Azhar then your professors need to be beaten for teaching such obvious falsehoods.

The Bible is not a single book, but rather a collection of writings. This is why the sections of the Bible are called 'Books', because each was a letter or piece of writing on its own before they were compiled into one cover.

As to language, the language of the Pentateuch (Taurat), the Psalms (Zaboor) and other Old Testament texts were almost entirely in Hebrew, the language of Moses and King David. The New Testament (Injil) was written in Aramaic and Kione Greek.

What Azhar? Here is The Quran in front of you. Quran is my guidance, Quran is my source of knowledge, Quran is my life.

Reflect what these Ayats say:

1)"Then, when the anger of Moses abated, he took up the tablets, and in their inscription there was guidance and mercy for all those who fear their Lord. (154)" [7:154]

2)"46. And We made to supervene on their tracks Isa son of Maryam, (Jesus son of Mary) sincerely verifying whatever of the Tawrah between his two hands (was before him), and We brought him the Injil, wherein there is a guidance and a light, and sincerely verifying whatever of the Tawrah was before him, and a guidance and an admonition to the pious." [5:46]

"Say: He is Allah, the One! (1) Allah, the eternally Besought of all! (2) He begetteth not nor was begotten. (3) And there is none comparable unto Him. (4)" [122:1/4]

Reflect what these three parts mean.

1)The tablets in which Turah was written and which Moses copied are sent to Him from Allah so The Speaker is Allah Himself addressing us.

2)Allah sent down the Injeel to Jesus so Injeel is the words of Allah in which He address us and send us His message.

3) In this miraculous Ayah, Allah is The Speaker ordering Muhammad to say to us......

Check your bible, is it from Allah? Is it the words of Allah or human words?

So there are people between you and your god in order to know him and pray for him and know his religion?!

There must be Jesus in the relation between you and your Creator, there must be people take the information they personally get then deliver it to you after digesting it. And from people to people and generation to generation dependiing on trusting people and hardly imagine that any one dare to change the words of Allah.

What is your evidence in front of you if you search for the complete truth?

The Injil for example has about 5,300 different surviving manuscripts (not all are complete) in Greek, with over 10,000 additional copies in Latin, and several thousand more in other languages.

These are not 'different' Injils (Gospels/New Testaments), but faithful copies of the same one

We have the translation as well of course, but we have the original documents to check them against.... thousands of copies of the same original documents!.

We have only one, One book, one version, no copies, only one.

You know that what is in your hand is words from different people as the papers claim and then translate these words of humans then lie with Allah by without shame and say it is god words!!

Do you know now how people can dare to change the words of Allah and made others and say they are his?

If you open any of your book, will find in the cover "words of god".

If you open any book of translation of Quran, will find in the cover "translation of the interpretation (meaning) of The Quran. And if you find "translation of Quran", burn it, it is a lie as no one can translate Quran. If it is not Arabic but translation and written "The Holy Quran", burn it as it is a great lie against Allah and not made by Muslims for sure.

2) Yahood and Nassara

I think you are confused here. These are the Arabic names for the Jewish people and for Christians.

"Yahood and Nassara at that time (after the era of prophet Muhammad) changed their respectful names to meaningless ones which are Jews and Christians."

Jew is merely the English pronounciation of the Hebrew name which the Jews called themselves (יְהוּדִים which can be rendered as Yhudim). That name can be found in archaelogy and in literature long before the time you mention.

Brother, I am an Arab, please don't tell me I know Arabic more than you.

Yahoodi means who were guided not who is from Judah. If it is in Hebrew, they kept the same pronunciation and changed the original meaning to Judah to make their religion confined to a specific people and place (this is politics, brother, when you change your skin for the sake of political interests, simply proved by Israel the only country stole its land in the name of religion and choose its people in the name of religion). You tell me which meaning is better.

For Nassara it is not the Arabic for Christians and not used any longer among Arabs, brother. It is from history, from Quran. Now Christians in Arabic are Messeihieen and here in Egypt they feel shame of Messeihieen and try to spread another name "copts". Ask any Arab even non Muslim you know and he will assure you that.

You might note that Christian starts with the word 'Christ', which is the Kione Greek for Messiah. The Injil was largely written originally in Kione Greek, which was the common trade language of the day. While the followers of Jesus originally called themselves 'Followers of the Way" (because it is written that Jesus is "the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me (Jesus) (The Gospel of John 14:6)), but the name 'Christian' was first used for them in Antioch around 60-62 AD.

So for a whole year Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people. The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch. (The Book of Acts 11:26)

The word Christian in the original Greek is Χριστιανός (christianos) which means 'follower of Christ'.

Pliny the Younger (61- about 112 AD) writing to the Emperor Trajan writes,"Those who denied that they were or had been Christians, when they invoked the gods in words dictated by me, offered prayer with incense and wine to your image, which I had ordered to be brought for this purpose together with statues of the gods, and moreover cursed Christ — none of which those who are really Christians, it is said, can be forced to do — these I thought should be discharged."

The Roman historian Tacitus (56-117 AD) writes, "Nero fastened the guilt of starting the blaze and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians [Chrestians] by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators

Do you like logic?

logically, this can never be an evidence. For example, I ask what is the meaning of "going" and you say "to go". You provide nothing as I still don't know its meaning.

I tell you your book is false and you quote from it to prove it!!

How do we know this?

Because we have original manuscripts and manuscript pieces of these.

Thanks, you get to the core. This is the base and the evidence of your religion, pieces of papers!

Without them, there is no evidence at all and all what you have are human words with no evidence that they are god's. Oh, even these papers has no evidence of being god's. Even they can't claim that they are god's.

How a fragile base!

Sister, I told you at the beginning that I would become a Muslim if I believed the Quran were from God. This is because I seek to follow God truely.

Can you say the same? If Jesus, the Son of God, is revealed to you as God... would you follow Him even if it might mean suffering or even death for you?

There is no if in religion. It is from The One God The Creator, it is not culture or normal thing. The religion of The One God must be clear, with undoubted evidence.

Yes, and even worship you but before, show me evidence, a great miracle of your religion that it is from The Great Creator then I can believe in you.

P.S:

I like your sincerity, respect and knowledge.

May Allah guide you to His straight path.

Edited September 19, 2011 by Happy Forever

[OldEnglishSheepdog]

It's simply fiction that there's some original copy of the Quran in Turkey.

The earliest copies were from 750 AD and the only evidence to the contrary is unsubstantiated assurances of evidence from Islamic sources.

Happy, I just want to note before I bow out here that logic does not mean whatever you want it to mean.

The laws of logic are established principles and you're not employing them here, at all.

You're committing logical fallacies. All your points are non -sequitur which means that logically they don't follow.

You've been greatly deceived and what you present as evidence is so very beneath the standard of anything that someone who knows the first thing about any of these issues would find compelling that's they're simply not worth dignifying with a response... and even then when I chose to try to deign them with a response anyways you ran off to diatribes about the supposed virtues of the Quran instead of actually engaging in the points that I made about Allah being the "best of all deceivers", the multiplicity of denouncements against making Christian friends, the doctrine of deceit practiced by Muhammad and recorded in the Hadith, etc.

It can well be supposed that you'll likewise run from any real conversation so I'd like to leave it with this:

You're not employing the logic to which you claim to subscribe.

[Dragoon]

Wa Alaikuum Salaam Happy Forever,

I am fine with dialoging with you, but you need to read and consider what I post as well, and not to merely jump into your own points

Please allow me to remind you to pray before we continue our discussion of God.

----------------------

Allow me to start with the best start "Bism Allah Arrahman Arraheem"

I do pray for you and would like to hear your prayer.

I do consider every word and feel you do the same. And that's why you have wide knowledge.

Hello my brother Dragoon,

First of all, let me say that if I believed the Quran was from God, then I would be a Muslim without hesitation. It is my desire to serve God wherever He may lead.

I hope you are sincere as you say and seek the truth wherever it is, this is what I do and the way I chose.

`

May we begin by looking at some of the assertions you make?

1) "bible, you don't know the original copy and the original language and consider the translation and people quotes as god words"

With respect, this is silly, and if you learned this at Al Azhar then your professors need to be beaten for teaching such obvious falsehoods.

The Bible is not a single book, but rather a collection of writings. This is why the sections of the Bible are called 'Books', because each was a letter or piece of writing on its own before they were compiled into one cover.

As to language, the language of the Pentateuch (Taurat), the Psalms (Zaboor) and other Old Testament texts were almost entirely in Hebrew, the language of Moses and King David. The New Testament (Injil) was written in Aramaic and Kione Greek.

What Azhar? Here is The Quran in front of you. Quran is my guidance, Quran is my source of knowledge, Quran is my life.

Hello Again Happy,

My apologies for referring to you as 'he' and 'brother' before I knew you were a woman.

My prayer before looking at God's word is pretty straightforward, and it is the same i pray for you.

Lord, reveal to us your wisdom and help us to draw closer to you. Keep Satan and his deceit from clouding our thoughts, and in all things may You alone be glorified.

Amen.

--------

That's exactly my point. Your source of knowledge is the Quran. I've merely demonstrated that your source of knowledge is wrong... which has implications for whether it can be considered 'from God'.

As it seems you've not fully understood some of what I wrote (and there is no shame in that, as I recognize English is not your native language) I'll go over it again where necessary.

Check your bible, is it from Allah? Is it the words of Allah or human words?

So there are people between you and your god in order to know him and pray for him and know his religion?!

There must be Jesus in the relation between you and your Creator, there must be people take the information they personally get then deliver it to you after digesting it. And from people to people and generation to generation dependiing on trusting people and hardly imagine that any one dare to change the words of Allah.

What is your evidence in front of you if you search for the complete truth?

The written words in the Bible are God's words, but God breathed those Words through men, and it was men who touched ink to paper to write those words.

There are no people between God and mankind. You said you 'knew' Christianity', but there are obvious faults in your understanding.

The books of the Bible have always been clear on this.

Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. (Letter to the Hebrews 10:19-22)

You are talking about Roman Catholic beliefs, which were condemned because they sought to place 'priests' between God and mankind, and it was for this reason that many people suffered and died so that they could stay true to the teachings of God.

You are also confused about who Jesus is. Jesus is not a man who comes between us and God.

Jesus is God, who opened the way Himself so that all man might come before Him.

Can a person with an unclean heart come before God?

Yet even the purest man is still unclean in comparison to God, so for man to clean himself is impossible.

Would you consider a pig clean because he told you, "another pig licked me clean????"

Only God can clean a man. All of scripture points to this fulfillment of His word, the Lamb of God; Jesus of Nazareth.

Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. (Gospel of John 14:6)

The Injil for example has about 5,300 different surviving manuscripts (not all are complete) in Greek, with over 10,000 additional copies in Latin, and several thousand more in other languages.

These are not 'different' Injils (Gospels/New Testaments), but faithful copies of the same one

We have the translation as well of course, but we have the original documents to check them against.... thousands of copies of the same original documents!.

We have only one, One book, one version, no copies, only one.

You know that what is in your hand is words from different people as the papers claim and then translate these words of humans then lie with Allah by without shame and say it is god words!!

Do you know now how people can dare to change the words of Allah and made others and say they are his?

If you open any of your book, will find in the cover "words of god".

If you open any book of translation of Quran, will find in the cover "translation of the interpretation (meaning) of The Quran. And if you find "translation of Quran", burn it, it is a lie as no one can translate Quran. If it is not Arabic but translation and written "The Holy Quran", burn it as it is a great lie against Allah and not made by Muslims for sure.

You've written a lot of silly stuff here, and it may be because you don't understand the meaning of some words in English.

If I go to a printer to print the Quran, he prints as many COPIES as I ask for. There was one ORIGINAL COPY, but there are many COPIES of that original.

When I tell you that;

These are not 'different' Injils (Gospels/New Testaments), but faithful copies of the same one

We have the translation as well of course, but we have the original documents to check them against.... thousands of copies of the same original documents!.

This does not mean there are many different books. It means that the same book was reproduced many times.

If Muslims really "have only one, One book, one version, no copies, only one"... that would mean that all 1.5 billion Muslims would have to share 1 book. I hope you can see why that statement is silly and makes me laugh

My Bible, and every Bible I've ever owned begins with "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. " (Book of Genesis 1:1)

Once again, I can only suggest that your sources are incorrect.

"If you open any book of translation of Quran, will find in the cover "translation of the interpretation (meaning) of The Quran. And if you find "translation of Quran", burn it, it is a lie as no one can translate Quran. If it is not Arabic but translation and written "The Holy Quran", burn it as it is a great lie against Allah and not made by Muslims for sure."

You mentioned earlier that one of your points against (what you falsely considered) Christianity was that "there must be people take the information they personally get then deliver it to you after digesting it."

If the Quran cannot be understood except by interpretation, then how is this different?

The interpretation is done by men who "take the information they personally get then deliver it to you after digesting it."

Does even the Arabic Quran have only the words that were given... or does it also include 'commentary' and 'interpretation'?

Running out of time tonight, but the basic point is that the Quran is wrong in this assertion. There were not 'many different bibles'. It seems that Arabic writers have made the same confusion you have, and assumed that 'many different copies' meant 'many different books' (vs 'many different copies of the same books').

You still may not get this as it appears to be a big language block for Arabic speakers.