Isaac (saved) vs. Esau (unsaved)

[apologia828]

It was probably due to His foreknowledge that God was able to make up His mind about Esau and Jacob.

Guys, you are not reading the text. It had nothing to do with Esau or Jacob but was according to the election of God. There is no idea here of God looking down the corridor of time and seeing what they would do. That's an example of eisigesis not biblical exegesis. The text says God elects.Gods forms the vessel one to honor another to dishonor. Unless we accept this to be true we cannot say that God is 100% sovereign. So what's it gonna be? Is He a completely sovereign God our not?

Do you believe God is too weak to give mankind free will?

Wow! Is He too weak to give man free will? Is that really an argument? The Bible teaches that man has a will however that will is always subject to God's. The God of the Bible is an all powerful God who, as it says in Ephesians 1:11, "worketh all things after the counsel of his will".

You'll notice however that nowhere in Scripture does it say that man has a free will which can override God's will. A God who is not able to save because the man says no.

Besides, if you saw someone that was planning to jump off a bridge committing suicide would you just say "oh well, I'd love to save him but I can't override his free will to kill himself"??

I asked the question because you brought up God's sovereignty, as if creating mankind with free will would impact God's sovereignty in some way.

So you do think a sovereign God could create mankind with free will. Good!

I didn't say that at all. If God gives man a free will apart from His will then He is no longer sovereign, is He? He would then be only partially sovereign but not completely sovereign as the Bible teaches He is. Again, look at Ephesians 1:11.

11 We have also received an inheritance in Him, predestined according to the purpose of the One who works out everything in agreement with the decision of His will, HCSB

So if God works out everything according to His will then what has man worked out according to his will? Paul says God has done everything. What He is explaining to us is that although we have physically, actually done things it was all prepared or predetermined by God's will.Or do you believe God is not free to exercise total sovereignty over man? Again, I believe man has a will just not one that is free. Remember, the Bible labels us as slaves to sin! We must be freed from our sins just as Israel was freed from captivity to Pharaoh.

[apologia828]

God created man in his own image. The fact that man can choose to disobey God in no way diminishes God's sovereignty.

Do you think Adam disobeyed God, or followed God's will?

Since you are basically presenting the same question here as you are in the Calvinism/Arminianism thread I'm going to answer the question here. The question you posed was, did God want Adam and Eve to sin?

But before I even get into that I would like to point out again the complete lack of interaction with the multitude of texts plus interpretation that I have provided. It demonstrates the fact that one side is providing a biblical response and the other a philosophical one. None of my objections have actually been responded to, neither here or in the Calvinism thread.

Although I believe Ephesians 1:11 answers this question in a general sense, it doesn't give us the full story. The big question is this, was the plan of God to redeem mankind put into action based upon whether Adam and Eve would fall or not? Therefore, had they not sinned God wouldn't have sent His Son to die on the cross as the greatest display of God's love and mercy towards mankind. Does God desire man to sin? No, but has He ordained it as part of His plan, yes. We can't deny this when looking at some of the Scriptures I've already cited such as the case with Joseph and his brothers, the case in which God orders an evil spirit to torment Saul, or in the case of the murder of His One and Only Son!

As further evidence of this look at what Proverbs 16:4 says (shocked me quite a bit the first time I saw it).

4 The Lord has prepared everything for His purpose —

even the wicked for the day of disaster. HCSB

This verse couldn't be more to the point. What has the Lord prepared for His purpose? EVERYTHING. Even the wicked He had created with a specific intention. This passage fits perfectly with what Paul says many years later in Romans 9:21-22.

21 Or has the potter no right over the clay, to make from the same lump one piece of pottery for honor and another for dishonor? 22 And what if God, desiring to display His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience objects of wrath ready for destruction? HCSB

If Adam and Eve did not fall we have a world free from contamination of sin and therefore no objects of wrath for God to demonstrate His wrath upon and make His power known.

I realize these are not easy answers. How can we understand the responsibility of man in relation to the sovereignty of God? I can't really answer that, but do we see both in Scripture? Yes. I am commanded to be holy and although I am a sinner and cannot attain holiness without the grace of God and the work of the Holy Spirit, I will do everything I can to follow God's commands. Although God puts in me the will and the doing (all Him), I have to guard my salvation with fear and trembling. That's why I continue to say we serve an amazing and impressive God, a God who does all things according to His purpose!

[apologia828]

I can't tell what your answer is.

Are you saying that it was God's will for Adam to sin?

Ok, please read over my last couple of posts once more and Ephesians 1:11b since this was the primary text I used. My answer is there. Let me know if you still have trouble understanding. I'm not giving a yes or no answer because I think it's of the utmost importance here to understand this within the context of all of Scripture.

[Guest]

Are you saying that it was God's will for Adam to sin?

It Was Satan's Will That Adam Die

Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. John 8:44

And It Is God's Will

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9

That Whosoever Will, Will Believe

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

_____________

_________

______

___

Won't You Believe

Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? John 11:25-26

And Be Blessed Beloved

Love, Joe

[apologia828]

Are you saying that it was God's will for Adam to sin?

It Was Satan's Will That Adam Die

Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. John 8:44

And It Is God's Will

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all kI should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9

That Whosoever Will, Will Believe

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

_____________

_________

______

___

Won't You Believe

Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? John 11:25-26

And Be Blessed Beloved

Love, Joe

Citing a collection of prooftexts doesn't actually prove your point. I've given extensive reasoning to demonstrate that God uses secondary means such as satan to accomplish His plans and purposes. I agree with every Scripture you quoted for I believe all Scripture to be God-breathed. Therefore, I think it's only fair that someone interacts with my comments and attempts to demonstrate why they believe I am wrongly interpreting these particular passages. If this is not able to be performed then my interpretation still remains accurate. Please brothers, think upon these issues and actually read the arguments presented.

Edited October 7, 2011 by apologia828

[Guest]

Citing a collection of proof texts doesn't actually prove your point. I've given extensive reasoning to demonstrate that God uses secondary means such as satan to accomplish His plans and purposes. I agree with every Scripture you quoted for I believe all Scripture to be God-breathed. Therefore, I think it's only fair that someone interacts with my comments and attempts to demonstrate why they believe I am wrongly interpreting these particular passages. If this is not able to be performed then my interpretation still remains accurate. Please brothers, think upon these issues and actually read the arguments presented.

God's Points

Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever. Psalms 119:160

Stand

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Matthew 5:18

____________

_________

______

___

Be Blessed Beloved

Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity! Psalms 133:1

Love, Joe

[joi]

http://www.omegaletter.com/articles/articles.asp?ArticleID=7110

I found this informative.

[Guest]

http://www.omegalett...?ArticleID=7110

I found this informative.

[apologia828]

I can't tell what your answer is.

Are you saying that it was God's will for Adam to sin?

Ok, please read over my last couple of posts once more and Ephesians 1:11b since this was the primary text I used. My answer is there. Let me know if you still have trouble understanding. I'm not giving a yes or no answer because I think it's of the utmost importance here to understand this within the context of all of Scripture.

In other words, you can't answer this simple question.

Lol. Wow! I had attempted to give you a more in-depth answer than just a yes our no question but since you're just looking for the easy answer. No, God does not want anyone to sin against Him HOWEVER, the fall was predetermined by God according to His will of decree so that He could later demonstrate His love by sending His Son to die.

For example, a parent (a loving parent) does not desire to see their child screaming in pain during a medical operation but they are able to see the beneficial outcome once it's all over. This is what I have been demonstrating through Scripture therefore it's up to you to decide whether you will believe in what the Scriptures say or your own personal philosophy.

Eph 1:11

11 We have also received an inheritance in Him, predestined according to the purpose of the One who works out everything in agreement with the decision of His will, HCSB

I will continue to quote this verse until someone demonstrates how events like the fall are not to be included in the word everything.

[Guest]

I can't tell what your answer is.

Are you saying that it was God's will for Adam to sin?

Ok, please read over my last couple of posts once more and Ephesians 1:11b since this was the primary text I used. My answer is there. Let me know if you still have trouble understanding. I'm not giving a yes or no answer because I think it's of the utmost importance here to understand this within the context of all of Scripture.

In other words, you can't answer this simple question.

Lol. Wow! I had attempted to give you a more in-depth answer than just a yes our no question but since you're just looking for the easy answer. No, God does not want anyone to sin against Him HOWEVER, the fall was predetermined by God according to His will of decree so that He could later demonstrate His love by sending His Son to die.

For example, a parent (a loving parent) does not desire to see their child screaming in pain during a medical operation but they are able to see the beneficial outcome once it's all over. This is what I have been demonstrating through Scripture therefore it's up to you to decide whether you will believe in what the Scriptures say or your own personal philosophy.

Ephesians 1:11

11 We have also received an inheritance in Him, predestined according to the purpose of the One who works out everything in agreement with the decision of His will, HCSB

I will continue to quote this verse until someone demonstrates how events like the fall are not to be included in the word everything.

Ah!

Beloved

God Did Not

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. James 1:13-15

Predetermine Sin

Do not err, my beloved brethren. Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. James 1:16-17

In Fact All Sin Is Against God

Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest. Psalms 51:4

And Yes, Man's Philosophies Will Not Mix

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. Colossians 2:8

With The Word Of God

Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall you diminish aught from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you. Deuteronomy 4:2

____________

_________

______

___

What

I have chosen the way of truth: thy judgments have I laid before me. Psalms 119:30

A Glorious Feast

Teach me thy way, O LORD; I will walk in thy truth: unite my heart to fear thy name. Psalms 86:11

The LORD Has Set Before Us

Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts. Jeremiah 15:16

____________

_________

______

___

Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27

Love, Your Brother Joe