Isaac (saved) vs. Esau (unsaved)

[apologia828]

Here's the problem's I have with the ideaology that we do not have free will, and everything is done by the will of God. oak touched on these but I would like to elaborate as I see them..........

1 if we have no free will according to salvation that means some were born for life eternal and others to eternal damnation, God is a merciful and just God and sent His Son for the sins of the world, (John 3:16)

2 we are told to preach the gospel to everyone, the gospel means Good News. How can it be the "good news for the world, if many dont even have the option to recieve it? It would be their death sentence.

3 God tells us that Satan is the prince of the powers of the air, and he has governors under him, and that satan has come to kill, steal, and destroy. Now if there is no free will and God does it all according to His sovereign will, it means He kills, steals and destroys, but the Word tells us that all good and perfect gifts come down from above. So is the Word lying? Heaven forbid!

God knows all, He knows the decisions we will make, good or bad, He knows who will accept Him and who wont, He knows the paths we take in this life, giving us free will by know means takes away from His sovereignty.

Blessings stacey c

1. I too believe that God is merciful and just. If you believe it to be unfair for God to sovereignly choose those who would be saved then here is what the apostle Paul has already stated in response to your objection:

Romans 9:14-16

14 What should we say then? Is there injustice with God? Absolutely not! 15 For He tells Moses:

I will show mercy

to whom I will show mercy,

and I will have compassion

on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it does not depend on human will or effort but on God who shows mercy. HCSB

That's Paul not me. Therefore if God decides to save one and not another it's up to Him. Again you may not like it but it's what Scripture teaches.

2. This is not a biblical argument but I'll go along with it. It won't be good news for those who love sin. Remember, the darkness hated the light. They don't want to be with God and especially don't want to submit to Him nor can they (Romans 8:7-8). However, regardless of what sinners think it is good news. What is the good news? That Christ would die for His church paying the penalty for their sins and resurrect from the dead conquering death. Unfortunately, Paul clearly states:

Rom 9:22

22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering vessels of wrath fitted unto destruction: ASV

Notice I am attempting to harmonize Scripture by placing them together to understand the full idea. For example:

Jn 3:16

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life. ASV

And...

Act 13:48

48 And as the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. ASV

Who is the whosoever (actually "those believing" in the Greek) that believe? Those who had been ordained to eternal life.

3. I realize this is complex but I've already provided a number of examples from Scripture that are very clear. Here are two.

Who killed Jesus?

Isaiah 53:10

10 Yet the LORD was pleased to crush Him severely. When You make Him a restitution offering, He will see His seed, He will prolong His days, and by His hand, the Lord’s pleasure will be accomplished. HCSB

Act 4:27-28

27 “For, in fact, in this city both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, assembled together against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, 28 to do whatever Your hand and Your plan had predestined to take place. HCSB

God used Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel as secondary means to carry out His plan. They did evil but God did good.

We also see something interesting in 1 Samuel 16:14-15

14 Now the Spirit of the Lord had left Saul, and an evil spirit sent from the Lord began to torment him, 15 so Saul’s servants said to him, “You see that an evil spirit from God is tormenting you. HCSB

Who sent this evil Spirit that frustrated Saul so much that later on he attempts to kill David? The text clearly say it was sent from the Lord.

As I've often told my students, satan is just a dog on a chain.

This is what Scripture reveals to us regardless of whether we are comfortable with it or not.

Paul tells us that God will have mercy on whom he will.

What else does Paul tell us?

Romans 11

32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Rom. 5:18

Therefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all.

1 Cor 15:21

For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.

1 Tim 2:3,4

This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

Ok, so are you saying that the Scriptures I quoted are contradicting the Scriptures you quoted? Please observe the big difference I have been trying to point out between our two responses. I put forth much effort in providing the context and exegesis for the Scriptures that I quoted and all I get in return is a string of verses that appear to contradict the verses I quoted. If you disagree with my interpretation of the passages cited then you need to demonstrate why that interpretation is invalid because I can demonstrate how those verses are in complete harmony with one another.

My point is that your interpretation is flawed.

Paul said that God can have mercy on who he will. Paul also tells us that God will have mercy on ALL men.

Both of Paul's points are accurate.

Paul also tells us God will have mercy on all men? So all men will be saved? It doesn't sound that way in the rest of the passage. Look at verse 22.

Rom 9:22

22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering vessels of wrath fitted unto destruction: ASV

The text clearly is speaking about mercy in regards to eternal salvation. To deny that is to take the entire chapter out of context.

Edited October 19, 2011 by apologia828

[apologia828]

Sorry, I kinda messed up the last post. I don't know how to use the multi-quote.

[Guest]

Paul said that God can have mercy on who he will. Paul also tells us that God will have mercy on ALL men.

Both of Paul's points are accurate.

Point

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Romans 1:16-18

By Point

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:23

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What~!

For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him. 2 Corinthians 11:4

You Think

And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. 2 Timothy 3:15-17

It Is Just Brother Saul's Musings We Read?

Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;

And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.

But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;

Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.

For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Be not ye therefore partakers with them. Ephesians 5:1-7

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Believe

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

And Be Blessed Beloved

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:17-18

Love, Joe

[apologia828]

Paul said that God can have mercy on who he will. Paul also tells us that God will have mercy on ALL men.

Both of Paul's points are accurate.

Point

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Romans 1:16-18

By Point

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:23

____________

_________

______

___

What~!

For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him. 2 Corinthians 11:4

You Think

And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. 2 Timothy 3:15-17

It Is Just Brother Saul's Musings We Read?

Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;

And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.

But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;

Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.

For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Be not ye therefore partakers with them. Ephesians 5:1-7

____________

_________

______

___

Believe

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

And Be Blessed Beloved

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:17-18

Love, Joe

I'm really not sure what your point is because of strange way of writing. I find it to be more confusing than effective but maybe that's just me. Anyway, I wanted to actually respond to Chesterton once more. I just noticed that you referred to Romans 9:15,18 as saying that God can have mercy on who He will which is actually an alteration of the text.The text shows us that He mercies (a verb in the Greek) whom He will and hardens whom He will not just that He can. He actually does this. He chose to have mercy on Moses and not on Pharaoh. Or are you saying that those He hardened He also mercied?

And please don't get me wrong. I don't believe God directly hardened Pharaoh's heart but since all he could do as a sinner was go against God all God had to do to "harden his heart" is withhold His mercy and grace and Pharaoh would on his own accord play the part God had raised him up for.

[Guest]

I'm really not sure what your point is because of strange way of writing

For

For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged. Romans 3:3-4

Sure

Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever. Psalms 119:160

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Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27

Love, Your Brother Joe