Women Pastors

[stevehut]

The Greek word used here (for silence) is hesuchia which is refered to a person who leads a life of quietness, someone who doesn't meddle in other people's affairs

Yup.

It has to do with attitude and demeanor, not sound.

Otherwise, shall we forbid the women even to sing?

[Kabowd]

I would just like to say to those who disagree with me that God could and does call women to be ministers.....

This is one of the things I think you're misunderstanding...I don't think anyone here is saying we (women) aren't called to minister. Just that our position in ministry should never be in authority over men.

[stevehut]

So if she has lived a life true to God and has avoided any "thrusts" into positions of authority, yet God leads her to Stand Up and follow his will to lead a congregation, or become a missionary,

Ah, yes, experiential religion. Experience and feelings trump all else. Nah, I don't think so.

I could probably come up with about 1,000 more hypotheticals myself.

But that doesn't change the commands of God.

[stevehut]

I don't think anyone here is saying we (women) aren't called to minister. Just that our position in ministry should never be in authority over men.

Yup.

In my church, we have plenty of women who serve in positions of leadership. And they are incredibly edified by it.

But we don't put them in charge of men.

Very clearly, the Bible in many places tells us that women should submit to their husbands. How is it, then, that they can go from submission at home to being in charge at church?

Doesn't sound kosher to me.

[apothanein kerdos]

I had a long responce written out but i lost it. Here's what it boils down to Shelby:

* You're ignoring the entire context in which I answer questions. You took one answer off of two letters that I explained for KMB and are basing your security off of it. Read the entire topic, what you are preaching is wrong.

* The women your'e speaking of have already been proven in this topic to hold no authority. no one challenged it because no one could. it's biblical fact.

* You're basing your entire belief on what you "beleive" God told you, yet God says women can't hold authority over men, you're saying He told you He can. I'll trust the Bible.

[keslc]

A lot has gone on today, since I've been gone! Anyway, it is almost 1:00 in the morning so please take that into account as you read this post.

Anyway... I am not a really smart person nor do I master Greek, Hebrew, or latin, so I cannot give definitions and the like. I only know what God has spoken to me in my daily study and prayer. BTW, I happen to trust the Bible as well and I trust God to direct me and be the author of my life, not anyone else.

Posted: Oct 8 2004, 03:19 PM 

Veteran Member

Group: Veteran Member

Posts: 993

Member No.: 8533

Joined: 28-July 04

QUOTE (keslc @ Oct 8 2004, 12:03 PM)

QUOTE (KMB @ Oct 8 2004, 10:37 AM)

QUOTE 

1 Timothy 2:11-15

"A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint."

I was following this early on and backed off for a while so forgive me if I ask questions on something that has been addressed already. This is an issue that I really ride the fence on. I have been brought up to believe that women should have no leadership roles in the church but I see women in leadership roles whom I believe are anointed godly women who are drawing people to Christ.

The above verses are obviously always used in discussions such as these. Everyone tends to focus on the parts about being submissive and not exercising authority over a man etc. I wonder if we are overlooking the part that says "but to remain quiet". If we are taking these verses literally, which it seems that we are then why don't we take this part literally. If we do take this at face value as it says, then women shouldn't be singing special music, taking other roles in worship services etc. We should be on the pew in silence. Any thoughts on this or should we continue to choose to leave this part out? 

I was going to post the exact same thing. When I look at all of the scriptures quoted over and over regarding this issue, I can't ignore the way each of these sections are entitled (at least in NIV) either. They are entitled "order in worship" (or something along those lines) not "requirements for pastors" (or something along those lines). WE MUST remember that in that day, women were not formally educated, they could not read, so when Paul is correcting them for "speaking out" in worship, he is speaking to their disruption of the worship, and because men were (at least more than women) educated (at least jewish men were and educated about scriptures, etc) and the women needed to learn submission to their husbands, they were encouraged to save their questions for their husbands at home. Women were also told to respect the authority in the church and be submissive to it, not because it was MALE but because it was AUTHORITY (also to maintain modesty in appearance as well as actions so as not to be proud or boastful). In that day, of course, all of the authority was male...they were educated.

I agree that sometimes people do twist scripture for their own purposes. However, I am confident I am not guilty of this in this case. I assure you this has zero to do with anything "I want" and 100% to do with what I feel convicted of by the Holy Spirit in my sincere study and prayer over this issue. If I am wrong, I pray I will be convicted and not be able to rest until I am corrected by God, as I have prayed whenever this topic has come up. My stance has not yet once been swayed, but confirmed in my spirit. 

Kelsc, I already responded to what you said earlier. Let me get it for you:

QUOTE 

On the surface this always seems like the logical explanation. However it doesn't take long to see that it holds no weight. For one, we have no historical documents that state this. It is all based upon assumption. Secondly, it's impossible to say one part of a letter is for the Corinth church while another part isn't. Context and logic do not support this claim at all. For one, it would be easy to assert that the belief on sexual immorality is soley to the Cornithian church. Under the logic that you have brought forth, this would be a completely justifiable claim. Thus it's false to try and say that this is merely a cultural issue or Corinthian issue. We use these books to dictate how we run the church, thus we cannot leave one part out simply because it contradicts the ideals of today. That is letting todays culture and beliefs interpret the Bible, something we should never let happen.

Likewise you give faulty analysis. The letter to the church of Corinth was written to gentile believers, not Jewish believers, thus the entire point of "jewish education" doesn't apply at all. We know from various Greek manuscripts at the time that Greek women (where this was written) were actually educated.

KMB, as for what you said, I did respond to it but unfortunately there's a lot of stuff to dig through. So basically the summarized version:

When Paul is talking about how he wishes them to be silent, it is simply adressing how a woman should be in the church setting when it pertains to authority. He'd rather a woman be silent than to have authority over a man.

Also, as a side note, whatever the translators title the passage has absolutely no relevance at all to the translation of it.

--------------------

*This message brought to you by the BGPCESJS (Big Governmental Program to Control Everything Super Jew Says)* 

I think you misunderstood my post (which is not a put down at all, I only mean I apparently did not get across what I was meaning very clearly) I understand that Corinthians were gentile. I only was saying that men were more likely to be educated than women and as a side note that jewish men were most likely to be educated in scriptures. I was not meaning that the letter was addressed to jews. I also never said that this was strictly a "corinthian issue". I was saying that I believe those scriptures address demeanor and behavior more than address "requirements" in ministry positions. Please re read my post, right now, I can think of no better way to re word it.

(Tess) I'm also not understanding how a female pastor (which would mean she has authority over men) could do so and still consistently be "under" her husband's authority. To me, this seems like it would be conflicting roles.

My husband is in agreement with the position I hold. He wants me to do what we feel God has led me to do, he too desires that I walk in obedience. When I denied preaching and holding the position I hold within the church, we felt terribly convicted by the Holy Spirit, once I submitted to that leading, we were much more at peace. Again, this has nothing to do with MY FEELINGS or anything I WANTED, I only want to be obedient. How am I not under submission to my husband if he agrees, encourages, and wants this too? (just for clarification, I am not ordained by our church, I did not go to seminary (yet, my husband and I plan on going together and becoming co-pastors as is usual in our church) but I and another man at our church preach on Sundays during our breakfast program (which anyone is welcome to and we get a lot of homeless or transient people) and then he leads a prayer circle for men and I for women. Occasionally, a man will stop me and want to talk about something I spoke on. I will answer his questions to the best of my ability, offer to pray with him and usually direct him to Bill for further mentoring, I also lead many of the childrens' and teens ministries and moderate a discpleship group. I do not "lead" the discipleship group as I am going through the program with everyone else, I just prepare (copy, pass out, etc) the materials and make sure the discussion stays on task etc)

(SuperJew)The Greek word used here (for silence) is hesuchia which is refered to a person who leads a life of quietness, someone who doesn't meddle in other people's affairs, ect.

This is what I was meaning above. So, some common ground......I agree that women need to lead a life in which they (we, lol) practice modesty, discretion, non-dispruptive, etc. I don't see this as meaning they cannot hold positions within the church, only that it should not be about causing a fuss and for purposes of self-glorification and upheavel within the body.

(Shelby) I also am behind Keslc 100%

:hug: I appreciate that, girl! Ditto here! I love ya!

(Shelby) ON A DIFFERENT NOTE:

I would just like to say to those who disagree with me that God could and does call women to be ministers, that I am 100% confident that God spoke to my heart and has set my ENTIRE life on a path that was directed towards becoming an ordained minister. There is not other way it would have come about. This was nothing I sought out. God called, He is God, who am I to question His will for my life. I didn't just have a "feeling" that he called me, it is so much deeper, and to say that I might "feel called but really am not" is disrespectful, and not anyones place to judge my heart, or my motivation, or integrity. People assume that since I believe God can call a woman, that I am some actvist, if anything I am the opposite of a n activist. I am a wife, a submissive one. My husband met me when I was in seminary. He was not in seminary. I was ordained and sent to a church. Later we got married. He will eventually be going to the same seminary. He supports me and encourages me in my calling. UNDERSTAND - My calling is daily confirmed by God to me. He has given me a deep passion for the souls of the lost and for discipling those who know him already.

Ditto here too. If it were all about my "feelings" and what I wanted I would be married to some other man (Shel, you know who and it would not be good) and probably a high school drama teacher in Illinois right now. I believe God would not go back on His promise to guide and direct my path when I trust in Him and seek Him.

(tsth) I'm sorry Shelby that you were offended. I just find it deeply troubling when God's implemented order is dismissed, and then one is expected to consider your teachings on the Scriptures as authoritative. I would find it extremely hard to follow you, when the Scriptures are very clear about God's order otherwise.

I don't think Shelby declared her stance the end all and be all of the scriptures. Nor did she ask you to "follow" her.

(tsth) Dear Shelby,

Would you agree that any lesbian/gay minister would use the same justification that you just did above, as well?

It all comes down to feelings, and a special revelation that just happens to go against the Scriptures.

In His Truth,

Suzanne

This is apples to oranges. Scripture is clear that those in ministry need to be above reproach. A lesbian or gay is living a lifestyle of deliberate sin, not above reproach at all. Being a woman does not automatically mean you are deliberately living in sin.

Ok, I'm exhausted.....Sorry this ended up so long. I hope I have spoken not out of haste, but out of a sincere heart (well, I know I have, but I hope it comes across that way) I know some may never agree, but I still would not want anyone to walk away feeling like we were not brothers and sisters in the Lord. I do not want that and I do not feel that way towards anyone, I just feel differently on this issue. God bless, will see you in the morning!

[Nicks Girl]

Again, Shelby. I apologize for coming across too "non compassionate" I didn't mean to be judgmental or "matter-of-fact" in my posts. I understand other people's points of view, and I shared mine. I feel like with every post I do, that you feel personally attacked by my beliefs. I don't know you, and I'm not judging you personally. My first post was not aimed at you in particular. It was a general summarization.

My age must have something to do with it, since you constantly bring it up. I simply stated my opinion and asked questions. I truly fail to see how this is hostile, etc. And therefore I don't see how it has anything to do with my age. I know that I come across alot of times as being very bold in what I say. I really try VERY hard to make sure I don't, I just don't explain myself very well.

I'm not finding being married hard for me. I'm better off now, than I ever was, I love being married. People around here would probably agree that I'm sometimes very passionate in my posts, and state clearly what I believe. I believe, and hope that I have improved greatly over the years.(I've been here for quite a while, even though I wasn't registed). I was in chat for several years, before going to the boards, and often found myself being too "bold" on my stance on something. Truth is quite often very offensive to people. Fellow believers shouldn't get offended by scripture.

I love truth, and often am not thinking straight about someone's feelings. I'm not trying to force everyone else to believe what I do. I'm simply having a discussion, on a controversial topic. Again, you don't know me, and do not judge my intentions with this post, please. I posted in concern for fellow brothers and sisters. I'm concerned about something like this, because it's the little things that allow false teaching amongst believers.

I do not believe women should be in authority roles in the church, such as Minister, or Pastor, etc. The Bible clearly says this.

I do not just have an opinion. The Bible backs up that belief. I think I do interpret your posts correctly. You believe it's ok, for women to be pastors, ministers, etc. I do not. You aren't the only one here with this belief, Shelby, and I wasn't aiming anything personally at you. I wasn't judging anyone. I was simply saying what the bible says. If you feel "judged" by that, maybe there is a reason. I will not apologize for sharing what the Bible says.

[Shelby]

First I don't care if someone judges me because I know they aren't my judge. So I am not taking any of this personally, because though most of you, in the nicest way, think I am against God's word and a false teacher. SOOO I will bow out. I refuse to defend myself to any of you.

I think we have really lost sight of a Holy Discussion. I am so tired ofd explaining and reexplaining over and over again. I am done. I am just tired of the same old argument, "It goes against God's Word!" Well you have shown me no more than 4 or 5 scriptures pertaining to this, and as I studied them in context, praying for discernment, I am comfortable with my belief. To compare me to a gay person, is just, well I can't find words strong enough.

I am done. Have a wonderful life all of you. And I pray that God will open your mind and soften your heart.

[Nicks Girl]

4 or 5 scriptures isn't enough?

I know the context of those verses as well. Women are NOT to be in authority over men. As it is in the family setting, so is it in the church.

God would not contradict himself.

I would never compare you to a gay person, and neither is anyone else. Someone simple said that it's the same reasoning a person who is gay uses.

Anyone could say that God told them to do something or that it's between them or God, but God would NOT and does NOT contradict himself.

[tsth]

Yes, that would have been me, and I was simply using a comparison in reasoning.

As far as you making your 4 or 5 Scriptures statement, I can only say ONE would be enough, if it was God's Word, so 4 or 5 should seem like an abundance.

In His Love,

Suzanne