Bold Believer Posted September 19, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 121 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,931 Content Per Day: 0.35 Reputation: 126 Days Won: 8 Joined: 01/22/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/13/1955 Share Posted September 19, 2011 Where is the evidence that Satan fell before the Creation? It appears from even a cursory reading of the Scriptures that he was doing exactly what he was meant to do: Be God's adversary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthitjah Posted September 19, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 1,285 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 17,917 Content Per Day: 2.27 Reputation: 355 Days Won: 19 Joined: 10/01/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted September 19, 2011 Grace to you, He obviously fell sometime after the creation since he is a part of the creation. God created satan. We can postulate that he fell sometime before the man was created or shortly thereafter as we see him in the garden tempting the woman who was created when the man was and subsequently taken from his side. Ge 3:1 ¶ Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, has God said, you shall not eat of every tree of the garden? Scripture does not define the serpent. However, it alludes to the fact that satan is a great serpent, and a tempter, and a twister of scripture. It is inferred. The serpent lent itself to the spirit of the anti-christ. God did not create evil. That is a heretical viewpoint and to state that God created him as an adversary is to equate God with evil since the actions of the adversary are opposed to God whom is Good. Peace, Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterH Posted September 19, 2011 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 9 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 196 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 11 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/22/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted September 19, 2011 You can not "fall" before being created. Lucifer was not a self made being God created him. God did not create evil ( there is already a thread for that discussion here.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColeTurner Posted September 20, 2011 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 12 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/19/2011 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/17/1987 Share Posted September 20, 2011 (edited) If by creation you mean the heavens and the Earth, I guess one could say that Satan fell before those were created. However, since Satan was a creation of God, one could assume that he is a part of creation. So; if one were to look at it that way, he did not fall before creation. Oh, apparently PeterH said something similar to this.But, hey I agree with him. Edited September 20, 2011 by ColeTurner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
other one Posted September 20, 2011 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 29 Topic Count: 599 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 56,254 Content Per Day: 7.56 Reputation: 27,984 Days Won: 271 Joined: 12/29/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted September 20, 2011 Job 38:4-7 4 "Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding, 5 Who set its measurements, since you know? Or who stretched the line on it? 6 "On what were its bases sunk? Or who laid its cornerstone, 7 When the morning stars sang together, And all the sons of God shouted for joy? NASB Angels were already here when the earth was created. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 Where is the evidence that Satan fell before the Creation? It appears from even a cursory reading of the Scriptures that he was doing exactly what he was meant to do: Be God's adversary. If your argument is that satan was created by God to be His enemy, you run into some serious theological problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
other one Posted September 20, 2011 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 29 Topic Count: 599 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 56,254 Content Per Day: 7.56 Reputation: 27,984 Days Won: 271 Joined: 12/29/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted September 20, 2011 Where is the evidence that Satan fell before the Creation? It appears from even a cursory reading of the Scriptures that he was doing exactly what he was meant to do: Be God's adversary. Your god infact created evil......he would have to create evil otherwise he would not be the creator of ALL things..and not a god 1. Created KNOWINGLY what satan would do, and still created satan 2. Your god "created" the tree, KNOWING satan was in garden, as satan was the guardian angel of eden 3. Your god created the snake/satan crafty. Thus created sin 4. We know god is evil as he says he does evil.....Job 42:11 all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him [job].........2 Kings 6:33 Behold, this evil is of the Lord.........and also has evil thoughts of course ..... Jonah 3:10 .....of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them. ......he even repents for the evil he does.... .Jeremaih 42:10 For I [God] repent me of the evil that I have done unto you. ..even though your god says he never repents ....Numbers 3:19 neither the son of a man that he should repent. 5. We know heaven is corrupt with sin, as thats where the real fall happened [see 6] 6. Your god created sin...created satan knowing he would fall..to then sending him to earth in the garden ..to then creating the tree ........to then creating man with satan in the garden....then says its all mans fault LOL LOL both heaven is corrupt as that is where sin originated...then your god sends sin [satan] to earth and thus corrupts earth.....then creates man so sin can continue and thus corrupts man LMAO what a mess lol lol I think you need to know my God a little better... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bold Believer Posted September 20, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 121 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,931 Content Per Day: 0.35 Reputation: 126 Days Won: 8 Joined: 01/22/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/13/1955 Author Share Posted September 20, 2011 Where is the evidence that Satan fell before the Creation? It appears from even a cursory reading of the Scriptures that he was doing exactly what he was meant to do: Be God's adversary. If your argument is that satan was created by God to be His enemy, you run into some serious theological problems. I would say the exact opposite. If God didn't create Satan to be the adversary, (hence his name), we run into some serious theological problems. The Lake of Fire was created for the devil and his angels. If Satan wasn't created to be the adversary, then why create the Lake of Fire? All creation took place within the first 6 days, I think we'd agree on. So then, why have a Lake of Fire created for a specific reason? As for when Satan fell from heaven (a totally different 'animal' so to speak) Revelation 12 indicates that event occurred right around the time Jesus was born. Rev 12:1-9 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; and she was with child; and she cried out, being in labor and in pain to give birth. Then another sign appeared in heaven: and behold, a great red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads were seven diadems. And his tail [!] swept away a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she gave birth he might devour her child. And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to [fn]rule all the [fn]nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne. Then the woman fled into the wilderness where she [!] had a place prepared by God, so that there [fn]she would be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days. And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. The dragon and his angels waged war, and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven. And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. Israel is the woman, Messiah is the child. The very next sign John sees is the Devil (as a dragon) still in heaven. Messiah comes, Satan tries to incite Herod to kill the Messiah, it doesn't work. God leads Yusef, Miriam and Yeshua into the wilderness (Egypt, the place prepared by God). At this point, war in heaven ensues. Michael and the righteous angels throw the Devil and his angels out of heaven to the earth. Remember that Jesus said He beheld Satan fall from heaven like lightning (Lk 10:18). So then, the casting out of Satan from heaven didn't occur until the birth of Messiah. Satan was called into heavenly council in Job. If he was not permitted to be there, why was he there? Scripture specifically states that Satan was thrown out of heaven once, not more than once. Of course, this begs the question, "If Satan was evil before being thrown out of heaven, why was he allowed access to heaven in the first place?" Could it be that he was doing his job? Being what he was created to be? This is the only explanation I can offer. I am not convinced that Satan was permitted into the third heaven at any time, only the atmospheric heavens. I also find it significant that God sent evil spirits as He pleased (as in Saul's case), which to me shows control and sovereignty over them. There is no evidence for a 'fall of Satan' prior to the birth of Christ, therefore I must submit that Satan was created for a specific purpose: to be God's adversary, and to a specific destruction: The Lake of Fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bold Believer Posted September 20, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 121 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,931 Content Per Day: 0.35 Reputation: 126 Days Won: 8 Joined: 01/22/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/13/1955 Author Share Posted September 20, 2011 Where is the evidence that Satan fell before the Creation? It appears from even a cursory reading of the Scriptures that he was doing exactly what he was meant to do: Be God's adversary. Your god in fact created evil......he would have to create evil otherwise he would not be the creator of ALL things..and not a god 1. Created KNOWINGLY what satan would do, and still created satan 2. Your god "created" the tree, KNOWING satan was in garden, as satan was the guardian angel of eden 3. Your god created the snake/satan crafty. Thus created sin 4. We know god is evil as he says he does evil.....Job 42:11 all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him [job].........2 Kings 6:33 Behold, this evil is of the Lord.........and also has evil thoughts of course ..... Jonah 3:10 .....of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them. ......he even repents for the evil he does.... .Jeremaih 42:10 For I [God] repent me of the evil that I have done unto you. ..even though your god says he never repents ....Numbers 3:19 neither the son of a man that he should repent. 5. We know heaven is corrupt with sin, as thats where the real fall happened [see 6] 6. Your god created sin...created satan knowing he would fall..to then sending him to earth in the garden ..to then creating the tree ........to then creating man with satan in the garden....then says its all mans fault LOL LOL both heaven is corrupt as that is where sin originated...then your god sends sin [satan] to earth and thus corrupts earth.....then creates man so sin can continue and thus corrupts man LMAO what a mess lol lol Obviously you have no grip (not even a little) on the Hebrew language. Ra does mean evil, however, it also means calamity. When God says that He repents of the evil he has brought, the word is calamity, not moral evil. The word repent means to have compassion in the Jeremiah example. The usage differs from Isaiah 45:7's usage, when the context is referring to creation and ra is used in conjunction with bara (to create from nothing). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trax Posted September 23, 2011 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 9 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/22/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted September 23, 2011 Where is the evidence that Satan fell before the Creation? It appears from even a cursory reading of the Scriptures that he was doing exactly what he was meant to do: Be God's adversary. Gen 1:2 The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters. Two things to consider with this verse: 1. Does God create a world that needs work? The earth was formless and void?? 2. Why is there darkness over the surface of the deep? Darkness is a sign of judgement in the Bible. The judgements God did to the Egyptians, one was darkness. When Jesus died on the cross, there was darkness. At the end times, there will be darkness. So, you got darkness at the very beginning. What is being judged? Is it satan and the host of fallen angels? An opinion may be as follows; After God created the heavens and the earth, satan wanted to be like God and rule over the creation. So he rebelled and after a time, God dished out the judgement. Maybe, opinion wise, was what happened to the dinosaurs. Whatever the case, what God created, is described as formless and void, with darkness over the deep. It just doesn't seem to be God's way of creating things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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