are you sure?

[ozell]

Jesus said we are saved in the end.

I think "saved" has more than one meaning in the NT.

It means saved from the just wrath of God on one's sin by faith, through the atoning death of Jesus Christ, for all those who believe in him (Ac 2:47).

It means the experience of God's power to deliver us from bondage to sin (Ro 5:10).

It also means the redemption of our bodies at the resurrection (Ro 5:9), and many more.

in all your example the person or people are delivered

when is the end?

That could be several things: the end of the trial of suffering, the end of one's life, the end of time at the resurrection.

But I think the meaning is the same in all three; i.e., perserverance is evidence of saving faith.

I agree with your end examples

but perserverance is evidence of saving faith is this written in the bible?.

or is this the same as endureth or holding fast?

James 1:12

Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

1 Corinthians 13:7

Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things

or

Revelation 3:3

Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Revelation 2:25

But that which ye have already hold fast till I come

what should we do with the word shall?

Well, "shall" denotes certainty, necessity, compulsion.

So those of saving faith are necessarily saved from God's just wrath on sin.

Is that helpful?Cordially,Eleanor

Definition of SHALL

verbal auxiliary1archaic a : will have to : must b : will be able to : can 2a —used to express a command or exhortation <you shall go> b —used in laws, regulations, or directives to express what is mandatory <it shall be unlawful to carry firearms> 3a —used to express what is inevitable or seems likely to happen in the future <we shall have to be ready> <we shall see> b —used to express simple futurity <when shall we expect you> 4—used to express determination <they shall not pass>

[ozell]

are you sure Jesus blood covers the sin we commit now or do it covers the sins of the past after we had accepted his as Lord and sviour?

Paul speaks of the sins that are past
Romans 3

24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.



Jesus died for the sin of mankind past present and future. But, it does not mean that as soon as we realize that we have sinned we do not ask for forgiveness. We sin daily - though we may not even recall that we have sinned - and therefore should ask God to forgive us daily - just as Jesus taught us to pray - daily - the Lord's Prayer - and forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors. The debt for sin that we could not pay has been paid on the cross for us.



Please read it again

Romans 3

24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

how do we know it is our past sins?

all over the NT after Jesus death and resurrection we read verse like

1 John 2:1
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

you know I am gonna ask why is Jesus our advocate to the Father when we sin if sin is nailed to the cross?

how about this one from Paul

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
why is sin death is Jesus nailed sin to the cross?one more example to spice up our discussionagain Paul said we can sin wilfully, Hebrews 1026For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of

notice all these verse are after Jesus death and resurrection.

[Guest]

Please tell me how do I love Jesus ?

How do I love my fellow neighbour?

the verses you use is not telling me how to love?

Love Is The Fruit Of Abiding In Jesus

And One Will

Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee. Psalms 119:11

Either

Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. John 15:3-4

Grow

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Galatians 5:22-25

As

Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. John 3:3

A Child

And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. Galatians 4:6

Or One Will Stay

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

As They Were

The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 3:35-36

See?

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:16-18

[ozell]

My understanding on this one is that the Biblical warrant for believing you are saved is the evidence of your faith in obedience to the commands of Christ.

amen

are you sure?

that you are saved now, we have a doctrine that teaches OSAS is this sure

Jesus says it is.

Jn 6:37 - "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away."

Jn 10:28 - "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand."

this same Jesus said

Isaiah 59

¹Behold, the LORD's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:

²But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear. ³For your hands are defiled with blood, and your fingers with iniquity; your lips have spoken lies, your tongue hath muttered perverseness.

take note:

1 Peter 4:17-19 (King James Version)

¹⁷For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

¹⁸And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? ¹⁹Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

why is the righteous scarcley saved?]

In the context of 1Pe 4:12-19 regarding the persecutions they were suffering, I understand this to mean

the way of salvation is hard; i.e., thorny and difficult, making it hard for the righteous to be saved from the difficulties of the present life.

And if God sends such judgment in this life on his own people to purify them, what then will be the judgment in the future life on the ungodly and the sinner

is it hard

Deuteronomy 13:4

Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.

Matthew 4:4

But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Proverbs .30:5

Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him

who are the righteous?

Wouldn't it be the believing people of God who are being purified through suffering.

accordin gto the bible it says

Deuteronomy 6

¹Now these are the commandments, the statutes, and the judgments, which the LORD your God commanded to teach you, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go to possess it: ²That thou mightest fear the LORD thy God, to keep all his statutes and his commandments, which I command thee, thou, and thy son, and thy son's son, all the days of thy life; and that thy days may be prolonged.

²⁴And the LORD commanded us to do all these statutes, to fear the LORD our God, for our good always, that he might preserve us alive, as it is at this day.

²⁵And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.

[ozell]

Please tell me how do I love Jesus ?

How do I love my fellow neighbour?

the verses you use is not telling me how to love?

Love Is The Fruit Of Abiding In Jesus

And One Will

Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee. Psalms 119:11

Either

Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. John 15:3-4

Grow

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Galatians 5:22-25

As

Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. John 3:3

A Child

And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. Galatians 4:6

Or One Will Stay

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

As They Were

The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 3:35-36

See?

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:16-18

according to Jesus own words this is the definition of Love

John 14

⁹Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

¹⁰Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

¹¹Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

¹²Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

¹³And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

¹⁴If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. ¹⁵If ye love me, keep my commandments.

what commandments?

the first 4 is how we love Jesus

Exodus 20

¹And God spake all these words, saying,

²I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

³Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

⁴Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

⁵Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

⁶And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

⁷Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

⁸Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

⁹Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

¹⁰But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: ¹¹For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

the last 6 is how we love our neighbour

¹²Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

¹³Thou shalt not kill.

¹⁴Thou shalt not commit adultery.

¹⁵Thou shalt not steal.

¹⁶Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. ¹⁷Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

[ozell]

lets confirm Jesus words concerning how we are to Love God and man

Paul said love is the commandments as Jesus said

Roman 13

⁸Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

⁹For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. ¹⁰Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

again Jesus said

1 John 5:3

For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

[Guest]

again Jesus said

1 John 5:3

For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Amen~!

A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another. John 13:34-35

The Law

Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. Romans 3:20

And The Righteous

To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Romans 3:26-28

By Grace

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. Ephesians 2:8-9

By Faith

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:16-18

[enoob57]

To Ozell,

We are to understand that works are the litmus test of the reality of Christ in us 'The Person of The Holy Spirit'...

The foundation of this is found in the thief on the cross at the Cross of Christ combined with the Heart of God

as no respect of persons-

Deut 1:17

17 Ye shall not respect persons in judgment; but ye shall hear the small as well as the great; ye shall not be

afraid of the face of man; for the judgment is God's: and the cause that is too hard for you, bring it unto me,

and I will hear it.

KJV

Rom 2:11

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

KJV

The two thieves started out mocking Christ but one of them began to observer the reaction and Words of Christ

as the events unfolded... He saw the truth of God "But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you,

do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,NKJV" According

to Isaiah (not our Isaiah but he would agree) Christ was beaten so that He did not even look like a man hanging

there and then to hear Christ's Words of Love and concern for them that had done this to Him melted the heart

of stone and the man saw God there and repented of himself and called out to Christ and was saved by the

admission of Christ Himself! Our Father put this here so that we might understand that salvation is apart from

works that men may do in obedience to His Word! Thus we have heard it said and seen it done by God Himself -

Salvation is not of works...

John 1:12-13

12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His

name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

NKJV

Works are then the living reality of Christ in us thus 'faith without works is dead' ...

So if the purpose of your posts are to encourage through the fear of God the self examination of outworkings of our

hearts by the Light of Scripture as those wraught by God in us.... I agree as the pressings of Paul also Phil 2:12-13, 1Cor 9:27

Sooooooooooooooooooo is this what you are getting at?

Love, Steven

[ozell]

again Jesus said

1 John 5:3

For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Amen~!

A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another. John 13:34-35

The Law

Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. Romans 3:20

And The Righteous

To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Romans 3:26-28

By Grace

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. Ephesians 2:8-9

By Faith

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:16-18

im still watiing on how we are to love one another?

what are the commandments?

exodus 20

the definition of faith is

hebrews 11:1

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

the definition of righteousness is

deut 6

²⁴And the LORD commanded us to do all these statutes, to fear the LORD our God, for our good always, that he might preserve us alive, as it is at this day. ²⁵And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded

what is grace

Rom 5

¹⁵But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

¹⁶And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

¹⁷For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) ¹⁸Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

[Guest]

im still watiing on how we are to love one another?

what are the commandments?

I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. John 15:5