Does THIS Doctrine line up with God's Words?

[Isaiah 6:8]

You deny half of the bible. I accept all of it.

Then why do you not quote whole chapters where the very chapter contradicts what your position is? You have done this multiple times. Please do not call Kettles black, if you are indeed a Pot.

[Guest shiloh357]

The bible says both that we must have faith and that we must strive for holiness.

The problem is that you interpret "strive for" to mean, "work for." The holiness we need to see God cannot come from human effort. Our lives are to be a reflection of the Holiness God provides.

The bible says that we are justified by works and not by faith alone.

No, it doesn't. In fact, everywhere works are mentioned in connection to salvation, they are ALWAYS, without exception presented the fruit of salvation, not the means of attaining it. In fact, is that very notion that sparked Paul's rebuke of the Galatian congregation. They believed that works were needed in addition to faith and Paul called those teach such false gospel "accursed."

The bible says that all men will be judged for their actions on earth.

That is not exactly accurate.

First of all Believers will stand before the judgment seat of Christ (II Cor. 5:10). It is there that their works will be judged to decide their reward

Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

(1Co 3:12-15)

Notice it is their works being judged, not the person. This not a judgment that is meant to determine whether or not they go to heaven. It is simply to determine their reward for service. Christians (the real ones) have already been judged. They have been declared "righteous" by the Eternal Judge and it has been imputed to them on the basis of faith.

Sinners will appear at the Great White Throne and they will be judged for their works, because they are under the law and the law offers nothing but condemnation and demands the death penalty for those who chose continued separation from God. Even those who thought they could depend on their works for salvation will find that they are also under same condemnation as those who outright rejected Christ. If you want to saved by your works, you will be judged by those very works.

You deny half of the bible. I accept all of it.

We are saved by grace through faith and works.

You don't believe the Bible and you don't believe the Gospel. The Bible clearly says:

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

(Eph 2:8-9)

You don't believe the above and thus you don't believe the Bible. There is no room for works in how a man gets saved. If you say otherwise, you are NOT an authentic follower of Christ.

[Eccl12v13]

I ask again, for the third time:

Exactly what "action" has to be taken, in your theology, to earn salvation?

Tell me yourself, personally. If you cannot relay it simply, in your own words, then how are you going to explain it to someone else and help them achieve it? If we are all missing something that is going to keep us out of heaven, as you are implying, you'd better be able to tell us, succinctly and directly what it is and how to achieve it. You have not done so yet. You haven't even attempted to answer my simple question.

As God's word tells us, to answer your question;

Rev.22

[14] Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

I cannot tell you in my own words. I can only tell you what God tells us will allow entrance into His kingdom. God, not me, tells us that keeping His commandments is what is needed for salvation? Because there are only TWO choices; life in God's kingdom, which is salvation from the second choice. Or life in the lake of fire!

Do you not agree?

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[Guest shiloh357]

Tell me this, Ecclv.... At what point do you ever know if you have done enough? At the end of your life, how will you know if you have done enough to please God? See, works-based salvation is measured in two ways: Quality and quantity.

So how will know if you have done enough and how do you know if the good works you do are "good enough" to please God in the first place?

Wouldn't it be a shame to do all those good deeds only to find out that they were not good enough to save you? So, against what standard do you measure the quanity and quality of your works?

How do you know what you have done up to this point was accepted by God?

[Eccl12v13]

I do know this: It is clear from these passages that no one at the Great White Throne Judgment is saved.

How can you claim what you said above when NOWHERE in God's word tells us that ALL of those that are being judged here WILL go into the lake of fire. Let's read....

Rev. 20

[10] And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

[11] And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

So we have ONLY (3) beings thus far in the lake of fire; Satan, the beast and the false prophet.

[12] And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

And now we have books that were opened and the dead was judged based upon what was in those books....according to their works.

[13] And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Again we have the sea and the earth giving up the dead and again the dead were judged according to their works.

Now at this point the ONLY judgement that can take place is whether there will be some that will dwell in God's kingdom, or if there will be some that dwell in the lake of fire! These are the ONLY two choices. Either you are IN God's kingdom or you are NOT! There is nothing inbetween! There is no stages in God's lake of fire! There in no chance of parole!

[14] And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

[15] And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

God's word does NOT say ALL were found not written in the book of life! God tells us that WHOSOEVER was not found written in His books were cast into the lake of fire.

Now you claim that God's word says ALL were cast into His lake of fire? Where does it say that in God's word?

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[Eccl12v13]

Tell me this, Ecclv.... At what point do you ever know if you have done enough? At the end of your life, how will you know if you have done enough to please God?

How do you know what you have done up to this point was accepted by God?

We all will find out at one of two times; In the first resurrection, which is when Jesus returns to gather the saints and will rule with Him for 1000yrs.

Rev.20

[6] Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

God's word does not say ALL that are not in the first resurrection WILL go into the lake of fire. It says you are blessed because if you are in the first resurrection you have nothing to worry about; for these do not have to worry about the second death, which is the lake of fire. All others have to be judged and that judgement will determine if you will be allowed entrance into God's kingdom.

Or at the second resurrection when the names will, or will not, be read from God's books;

Rev.20

[15] And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

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[Guest shiloh357]

Tell me this, Ecclv.... At what point do you ever know if you have done enough? At the end of your life, how will you know if you have done enough to please God?

How do you know what you have done up to this point was accepted by God?

We all will find out at one of two times; In the first resurrection, which is when Jesus returns to gather the saints and will rule with Him for 1000yrs.

But that doesn't answer the question, Ecclv. I want to know how you know NOW if what you are doing is good enough? I mean, isn't pointless do the works that are not good enough even if the are "good" works? How do you know today that you are on the right track and that you are pleasing God today? How do you know what you need to improve on or change in your life so that you are not wasting your time on what is not really good enough to get you saved?

To what do you anchor your life? Where does your assurance of salvation come from right now?

[Isaiah 6:8]

I ask again, for the third time:

Exactly what "action" has to be taken, in your theology, to earn salvation?

Tell me yourself, personally. If you cannot relay it simply, in your own words, then how are you going to explain it to someone else and help them achieve it? If we are all missing something that is going to keep us out of heaven, as you are implying, you'd better be able to tell us, succinctly and directly what it is and how to achieve it. You have not done so yet. You haven't even attempted to answer my simple question.

As God's word tells us, to answer your question;

Rev.22

[14] Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

I cannot tell you in my own words. I can only tell you what God tells us will allow entrance into His kingdom. God, not me, tells us that keeping His commandments is what is needed for salvation? Because there are only TWO choices; life in God's kingdom, which is salvation from the second choice. Or life in the lake of fire!

Do you not agree?

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Have you read what I wrote? or have you ever read Romans? What you are teaching is not Christianity, it is Islam.

[Eccl12v13]

But that doesn't answer the question, Ecclv. I want to know how you know NOW if what you are doing is good enough?

To what do you anchor your life? Where does your assurance of salvation come from right now?

I know when I am doing what is needed when I get that same warring within that Paul got whenever his mind was on the delight of the law of the Lord.

"But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members."

I know if that war between the laws of God and the laws of sin were to ever stop, then I have fallen off course. Satan comes after those that are DOING God's will!

My anchor is trusting in God's word! I trust that God will be a fair judge. I trust that God knows my intentions! I trust that God will be merciful! I trust God's word that tells me if I keep His commandments that doing so will give me eternal life!

Deut.7

[9] Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;

1 Kings 8

[61] Let your heart therefore be perfect with the LORD our God, to walk in his statutes, and to keep his commandments, as at this day.

Neh.1

[5] And said, I beseech thee, O LORD God of heaven, the great and terrible God, that keepeth covenant and mercy for them that love him and observe his commandments:

1 John 2

[3] And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

[4] He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Rom.7

[10] And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

[12] Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Rev.22

[14] Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

"Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man."

From Gen. to Rev. God has asked man only ONE thing; TO OBEY AND KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS!!

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[Eccl12v13]

Have you read what I wrote? or have you ever read Romans? What you are teaching is not Christianity, it is Islam.

Romans 7

[7] What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

So is Paul saying here that God’s laws are bad? No he is not. As a matter of fact it is by God’s laws he knows what sin is. He knows to obey and keep God’s law of NOT to covet. So could ‘Do not covet’ have been one of God’s laws that were nailed to the cross? Are we no longer required to try to keep this law? Of course not. Let’s read more;

[8] But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

But sin, reasoned by the law, stirred up all sorts of feelings and desires. Again, had I not known that the law said what was sin, sin did not exist. It was dead to me.

[9] For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

I did what I wanted without the knowledge of the law, I was alive. But when I found the law, it let me know what sin is; and sin revived. I could no longer do what I wanted, that old man and old lifestyle died.

[10] And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

And the law that gives life eternal, caused death to that sinful man and lifestyle.

[11] For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

But sin, reasoned by the law, fooled me, and it (sin) would have me die, spiritually.

[12] Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

So I now know that God’s law is HOLY, JUST AND GOOD!

How can Paul mean that the very thing that can save him if he obeys (And the commandment, which was ordained to life…) has been done away with and nailed to the cross? Then he goes to tell others we are not bound to it? In verse 10 above he tells us what the law does; it, “…was ordained to life…" If anything NOT keeping God's laws is what does not make any sense!

[13] Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

Was that which was ordained to life, the law that is holy and just and good, cause me to die spiritually? God forbid. But sin, now that it is known as sin, IT causes me to die spiritually, by that which is good; (“…the commandment, which was ordained to life…” and “…the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.”), and now because of the knowledge of God’s laws sin is exceeding sinful.

Paul ask the question…”Are the laws that give life, the thing that will cause me to die spiritually?” To which he answers, “No!”. He then tells us now that he knows sin, by the knowledge of God’s laws, is THAT which will cause him to die spiritually. And now that he knows God’s laws, sin is even MORE sinful to him.

Romans 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

Do you know what he is saying here? Let's break it down.

For that which I do (The things I do), I allow not (I don't want to do them): for what I would (the things I want to do), that I do not (I don't do them); but what I hate (the things I don't want to do), that I do (are the things I do).

The above scripture is NOT easy reading! Even for those learned it can be a challenge. Can you imagine babes in the word trying to understand Paul‘s writings? Let’s continue;

[16] If then I do that which I would not, (If I do those things I know I should not do), I consent unto the law that it is good. (I agree with the law that it is good).

Paul is letting us know that just knowing that he should not do those things that he does not want to do, lets him know that God’s laws are the right thing to do and they are good.

[17] Now it is no more I that do it,(But it’s not me that do those things, nor do I even what to do them), but sin that dwelleth in me. (But it is the pressure of sin. It is the temptation of sin.)

Paul tells us he does not want to do that which is wrong…but it is sin and the temptation of sin that makes him give in.

[18] For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: (I know my flesh is weak), for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. (I have the will, but I cannot find the way to do good).

[19] For the good that I would I do not: (I want to do good but I don’t do it): but the evil which I would not, that I do. (But the bad things I don’t want to do are the things I do.)

Paul is telling us that he wants to do that which is good, but it seems to be those things that are bad is what he does.

[20] Now if I do that I would not, (Again, if I do those things I don’t want to do.) it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.(It is not me, but the sin within me, it is the temptation within.)

Now let’s read what it is that keeps Paul in check and causes him to beat himself up, sort to speak.

[21] I find a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.(I now have a law, that when I want to do good, right away the law of sin is present.)

Paul tells us that whenever he tries to keep God’s laws, the laws of sin is right there tempting him to do that which is evil. Paul is telling us that this is the struggle that happens with. Let’s confirm…

[22] For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

Paul tell us he delights in God’s law, which is in his mind…when he is thinking about it. And which laws is it that is in Paul’s inward man? Let’s read it…

Heb.10

[16] This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

The laws that God said would be in the new covenant are those that Paul delights in. And these are the same laws that were in the old covenant; do not steal, do not murder, do not lie, do not covet. These are the laws that come to mind whenever Paul tries to do that which is good. But is there another law that comes to Paul’s mind when he delights in the laws of God? Let’s read….

[23] But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Paul tells us that the moment he delights in the laws of God…there enters ‘ANOTHER’ law that he struggles with. And this law wars against the law of God that he delights in. And what is this law that wars with the laws of God? They are the sin laws that tell Paul TO Sin, TO Murder, TO Lie, TO Steal and TO Covet! And it is this law of sin that wars with the laws of God that brings him to the captivity of sin within his body.

[25] I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

So which law is it that Paul is trying to keep? The laws of God!

And WHAT did Paul tell us these laws would do? “…And the commandment, which was ordained to life…” Paul tells us that God’s laws were ordained to LIFE!

Paul tells us that God’s laws are, “Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.”

And with all of what we have just read above, you have Paul TELLING OTHERS to keep God’s laws!

As I have said before…..Paul speaks of TWO sets of laws in his writings: There is the one set of laws that we just read about above. The above set of laws are those that Paul keeps, tells others to keep and he calls them, holy, just, good and are ordained to life.

Then there is the other set of laws that Paul speaks of that God never liked, that could not make the comers there unto perfect, thus were against us, that required deeds and works, and was only to be around until, “…the seed should come…”! It is THIS set of laws we are no longer under!

At NO point does God EVER say that just because we cannot keep His laws perfectly, we are NOT supposed to try to keep them at all.

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