War of the Words

[larryt]

The thing is, numerous studies have been done on this issue and all have proven they hold no effect.

-- YOU CANNOT PROVE THE SPIRITUAL.

When I say this, I'm talking about music that is accused of having "satanic back-masking/embedding". Why would Satan need to decieve in such a way? This comes from a misconception of the way the enemy works. It's absolutely absurd to think that Satan would need to use a back door to get someone to sin.

-- You got a lot to learn sonny. If you believe this dribble I hope and pray you aren't blindsided too bad.

Time and time again in the Bible Satan approaches the front door and is never hidden in any message.

-- LOL You need to read your bible more.

Thus, why would he use this? On top of that, if a person is lost then they are lost, Satan doesn't need to tighten his grip on them.

-- The manifestation of satanic influence on people under oppression is to oppress to the extremewhenever possible. Evil alway looks to tighten its grip. Where have you been your long life.

If a person is saved then I would hope the Holy Spirit would be protecting them from backmasking.

-- I would hope so too but that is not how the Holy Spirit works. We have volition and can choose how we live our lives. If we CHOOSE to sin He does not PREVENT us but INFORMS us of what is right. If you refuse to listen to the Holy Spirit He is grieved and you are let alone to do what you please. John Bunyon wrote "Holy War" in addition to "Pilgrims Progress." An excellent rendition of the work of the Holy Spirit in the believer and the "wiles of the devil."

Ro 6:16  Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

So either way you go, psychological proof or spiritual logic, back-masking/embedding hold no viable or provable impact.

-- "Another one bites the dust"

I never asserted that God needed psychology. If the assumption that if God doesn't need it then neither do we is absolutely absurd. If that is the case, then don't eat or sleep, cause God doesn't need those as well.

-- If we would take a good look at ourselves in the light of the Word we would come to a correct understanding of what people are like - SINNERS. Not suffering from low self esteem or social injustice. The problem is SIN not society. The bible has EVERY remedy needed to help man our of his circumstances.

2Ti 3:16  All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17  That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

As for psychology being a science, of course things are changing. Psychology, like almost all of science, is a fallible science. It's subject to change.

-- Absolutly not true. In true SCIENCES there are hard foundations that everything else is based on that can be trusted to remain relatively unchanged. You cannot name any such thing for psychology. Anything you mention as a premiss can be refuted by some other psychologist. There is NO agreement on any of the so called premisses. Only consensus.

This doesn't negate it's effectiveness or importance, it simply shows that psychology, as a science, is subject to change.

-- And change it does.

I have no idea why you're saying it isn't a science. It's accepted among all that psychology is an established social science.

-- This is a sweeping generalization. It is NOT accepted by ALL. This is nothing but worldly wisdom.

On top of that, you're using a shifting advocacy. Earlier on in this debate you were using psychology and psychological expirements to validate your beliefs. Now you've abandoned this (after shown that your examples have been proven wrong) and saying it's purely a spiritual matter. Why the shifting advocacy?

-- Science proves the existance, I repeat the EXISTANCE of backward masking. It cannot prove the effects because the effects are spiritual.

What does this seek to prove? That some psychologist are humanistic? Your point?

-- This was an example of the absurdity that "CHRISTIAN PSYCHLOGIST" James Dobson goes to to explain why we have problems. Christian pyschologist an oximoron.

And I'm the one making blanket statements? Psychologist also believe it is wrong and harmful if a child is abused. Am I not to believe this because some of them are materialist? Do you not see the absurdity in this paradigm? While some aspects of psychology obviously should be avoided and compared to the Bible, I fail to see how back-masking or embedding words denies the power of God or puts man above God. If anything it glorifies God to show that He gave the human brain enough blocking power to be able to block out back-masking.

-- You got to bait the hook with something.

I have had Satanist pray against me. I am very much aware of the spiritual realm, and this is a subject you do not even want to try to discuss with me.

-- I am truly glad that you have worked with innercity kids. That is commendable. You do not know very much about me, only what you read here. By your testimony I know how long you have been "serving" the Lord. It hasn't been very long. You have some experience but you would do well to not discount the experience of those who have "been there done that." Music has for a LONG TIME been working on the minds of the people of this country. The devil has been working for centuries to try to defeat God in His plan. I rejoyce that we have the victory, we just need to get THROUGH the battles.

You do know what the term "rock and roll" means? If not it means "Having sex in the back seet of a car."(Alan Freed 1951) So how could any christian associate themselves with this filth. Don't let your pride, (statement above) go before a fall.

1Co 10:12  Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

Jas 3:15  This wisdom descendeth not from above, but [is] earthly, sensual, devilish.

16  For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.

17  But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.

I wish I had had someone to warn me before I made a lot of mistakes. Someone who had been down the road before me.

The one thing we learn from history is that we don't learn from history.

LT

[apothanein kerdos]

The thing is, numerous studies have been done on this issue and all have proven they hold no effect.

You've yet to prove that this is a spiritual matter. I have shown through the spiritual and through the physical how embedding cannot work.

You got a lot to learn sonny. If you believe this dribble I hope and pray you aren't blindsided too bad.

I have shown you nothing but respect through out this debate. Do not evern refer to me as "sonny" again. I am very well learned and have been through a lot in my short time on this earth. I have dealt with people in the occult and have endured watching friends suffer at the hands of demons. Most of all, I have treated you with respect in this discourse and I demand respect back. If you can not so much as get over your pride to offer respect, then you can consider this discussion closed.

LOL You need to read your bible more.

How can you substantiate this? You laugh at it and tell me to read my bible yet cannot offer proof to contradict my claim. The reason you can't is because it's not there. You will not find your stance in the Bible. Satan does not need to hide. He knocks on the front door and decieves people that way. That is why back-masking contradicts what we know to be Satan's strategy. Satan didn't leave any hidden messages or guise his evil when tempting Jesus. He laid it all there and laid his deciet outfront, there was no need to hide it.

The manifestation of satanic influence on people under oppression is to oppress to the extremewhenever possible. Evil alway looks to tighten its grip. Where have you been your long life.

This is more from a traditional christian belief than it is from a Biblically based belief. Much of this is transfered from the Puritans (who brought it from medevil Catholic mythology) about Satan. One of the beliefs is that Satan will do everything he can to tighten his grip on the lost. This is obsurd in that:

1) He already owns the lost

2) None of the lost will choose to willingly seek God

Now once convicted by the Holy Spirit, yes, Satan will do his work on them. However, it is more from a lifestyle point of view than "back masking". You completely deny the implications of todays youth and what they have to face and instead act as if though "back masking" or "rock and roll" is somehow the worst temptation/attack they could face. I implore you to show emperical evidence or even logical evidence that this has caused the downfall of the youth instead of vice versa.

I would hope so too but that is not how the Holy Spirit works. We have volition and can choose how we live our lives. If we CHOOSE to sin He does not PREVENT us but INFORMS us of what is right. If you refuse to listen to the Holy Spirit He is grieved and you are let alone to do what you please. John Bunyon wrote "Holy War" in addition to "Pilgrims Progress." An excellent rendition of the work of the Holy Spirit in the believer and the "wiles of the devil."

This denies the entire premise of Back masking. Again, you have a shifting advocacy that destroys your stance on this issue. If back-masking or embedding occurs in a song so that the listener doesn't know about it, how can they willfully be sinning? Thus under your own arguement and conclusion, back masking would still not effect a Christian because they are not willfully listening to it.

So either way you go, psychological proof or spiritual logic, back-masking/embedding hold no viable or provable impact.

-- "Another one bites the dust"

What point are you trying to make?

If we would take a good look at ourselves in the light of the Word we would come to a correct understanding of what people are like - SINNERS. Not suffering from low self esteem or social injustice. The problem is SIN not society. The bible has EVERY remedy needed to help man our of his circumstances.

This doesn't negate Psychology or the fact that the study you listed was proven wrong. All it states is the obvious that sin nature is the problem. Also, the study of societies impact upon people would be Sociology, not Psychology.

Absolutly not true. In true SCIENCES there are hard foundations that everything else is based on that can be trusted to remain relatively unchanged. You cannot name any such thing for psychology. Anything you mention as a premiss can be refuted by some other psychologist. There is NO agreement on any of the so called premisses. Only consensus.

Actually, you can. We know that the chemicals within the brain have a certain impact, that if the brain goes without sleep for too long it begins to act a different way, that certain events can change a persons thought process, ect. There are a lot of foundational facts within psychology.

This is a sweeping generalization. It is NOT accepted by ALL. This is nothing but worldly wisdom.

When the Bible talks about wordly wisdom it is talking about wisdom that attempts to make man superior to God. This was Pauls' responce to the gnostic problem that occured during his time and the centuries to come. The gnostics believed we had to have a special wisdom, a head knowledge of God, in order to be saved. Paul was stating that they support wordly wisdom and not the true wisdom of God. Now, you are left with the task of proving that Psychology being a science equates to being wordly wisdom. Good luck.

Science proves the existance, I repeat the EXISTANCE of backward masking. It cannot prove the effects because the effects are spiritual.

No they aren't. I already proved this. Here, take a look:

The thing is, numerous studies have been done on this issue and all have proven they hold no effect. When I say this, I'm talking about music that is accused of having "satanic back-masking/embedding". Why would Satan need to decieve in such a way? This comes from a misconception of the way the enemy works. It's absolutely absurd to think that Satan would need to use a back door to get someone to sin. Time and time again in the Bible Satan approaches the front door and is never hidden in any message. Thus, why would he use this? On top of that, if a person is lost then they are lost, Satan doesn't need to tighten his grip on them. If a person is saved then I would hope the Holy Spirit would be protecting them from backmasking. So either way you go, psychological proof or spiritual logic, back-masking/embedding hold no viable or provable impact.

This was an example of the absurdity that "CHRISTIAN PSYCHLOGIST" James Dobson goes to to explain why we have problems. Christian pyschologist an oximoron.

The bible tells us to love God with all of our heart, mind, and soul. A Christian psychologist simply studies the mind and how it works. THe mind isn't a mystery, it's a machine designed by God that we are allowed to study.

You got to bait the hook with something.

And you're asserting that back masking is this bait? Again, music reflects the life of the individual, not the other way around. Thus if they're listening to satanic music already, it's because other events lead them to that. They didn't just pick up a Twisted Sister album one day as Johhny Christian and the next day become a Satanist. The transformation begins over time and usually with their choice in friends, not in music.

I am truly glad that you have worked with innercity kids. That is commendable. You do not know very much about me, only what you read here. By your testimony I know how long you have been "serving" the Lord. It hasn't been very long. You have some experience but you would do well to not discount the experience of those who have "been there done that." Music has for a LONG TIME been working on the minds of the people of this country. The devil has been working for centuries to try to defeat God in His plan. I rejoyce that we have the victory, we just need to get THROUGH the battles.

I dont care how long you've served God (notice I was polite enough not to put serve in quotations as you did with me). The fact is you're wrong on this issue. Just because we have years under us doesn't make us any more right than the next person. Timothy at the believed age of 20 was put in charge of a church that had some major problems with some of the elders in the church. Age has absolutely nothing to do with understanding. I will not let you look down on my simply because I am younger than you. I am confident that I have studied this issue as much if not more than you (and I believe that's been proven throughout this discussion) and that I am standing on the right grounds here.

You do know what the term "rock and roll" means? If not it means "Having sex in the back seet of a car."(Alan Freed 1951) So how could any christian associate themselves with this filth. Don't let your pride, (statement above) go before a fall

You also realize that stained glass windows were originally used by the Romans to aid in worship to Romans gods and goddesses. Likewise the cross was a symbol of death and considered evil to place in public. Just because something has bad intentions doesn't mean God can't turn it around. "Rock and roll" (which no one uses that term anymore unless they're refering to Elvis) can and has been turned around and used for God's glory. You know, He has a tendency to do that. Take impure things and make them pure.

I wish I had had someone to warn me before I made a lot of mistakes. Someone who had been down the road before me.

I've made my mistakes and I still listen to secular music. If I ever become a Satanist I'll let you know. Until then, I'm walking proof that you're wrong

Now, I want to show you something. You were saying psychology was evil and can't prove that backmasking works. So, let me show you some comments you made and ask you why you changed your mind:

Joel who told you that subliminal messaging is bunk. Subliminal messages work REALLLLLLY well. They started by showing one frame in a movie every 2-3 minutes of a coke or popcorn and lo and behold people drank and ate more popcorn. before I was a believer I studied psychhology at Columbia Univ. NYC. We (me included) did experiments with subliminal messages. On my own I checked back-masking. They are there. Clear as day when played in reverse you can hear "My sweet satan" on Highway to Heaven.

Now here, you're using psychology to validate that backmasking is true....yet you later go on to say:

Science proves the existance, I repeat the EXISTANCE of backward masking. It cannot prove the effects because the effects are spiritual.

So, why the sudden change?

Lastly, you better start showing some respect Larry, I've earned it. Anyone who puts up with what you throw at them, regardless of age, has earned the right to be respected.

[other one]

No matter what, at some point we're all going to back-mask. If I were to say, "safe car" in a sentence and you played it backwards, it'll say, "Race fast". Does that mean I'm sending out a subliminal message to get people to race fast? Not at all. It's simply how the English language lines up.

I am not denying back-masking, I'm simply denying that it's effective.

SuperJew, it doesn't work that way. The backwards spoken words are actually harmonically blended into the forward speech and you can not understand that it is words when you hear it going forward. The sound picks up a slight harmonic twang to it, but your mind puts the reverse spoken words directly into your subconscious mind. You may well not know what the exact words are, but it will effect your attitude and mood in ways that are at times comical other times can be totally infuriating. Really highly charismatic people backspeak a lot. Some Satanists do it at will both front and back by itself.

It's OK if you don't believe it, it just won't bother you much if I record our conversations should we meet in the future.

Physiologists can print what they wish, but I have done this myself and need no fancy person to tell me whether or not it works.

[apothanein kerdos]

No matter what, at some point we're all going to back-mask. If I were to say, "safe car" in a sentence and you played it backwards, it'll say, "Race fast". Does that mean I'm sending out a subliminal message to get people to race fast? Not at all. It's simply how the English language lines up.

I am not denying back-masking, I'm simply denying that it's effective.

SuperJew, it doesn't work that way. The backwards spoken words are actually harmonically blended into the forward speech and you can not understand that it is words when you hear it going forward. The sound picks up a slight harmonic twang to it, but your mind puts the reverse spoken words directly into your subconscious mind. You may well not know what the exact words are, but it will effect your attitude and mood in ways that are at times comical other times can be totally infuriating. Really highly charismatic people backspeak a lot. Some Satanists do it at will both front and back by itself.

It's OK if you don't believe it, it just won't bother you much if I record our conversations should we meet in the future.

Physiologists can print what they wish, but I have done this myself and need no fancy person to tell me whether or not it works.

I'm not denying that it exsist. The fact is, some back masking is accidental, some is done with a purpose. HOwever, like I said, it is a proven fact that it doesn't work. There hasn't been a study or observation to date that shows the effectiviness of this.

[larryt]

Dear SJ,

Please forgive me for looking down on you. I don't really look down on you and I think you have zeal that many don't have. When I was 21 I wasn't even a christian. It may be that I have already seen things that you have not even considered yet though. As for Timothy he was young but most probably had been under Paul's tutalage for many years before being given the responsibility of pastoring a church. Paul did say

1Ti 3:6  Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.

Novice has nothing to do with age, but experience. And if Timothy was a novice the Paul is contradicting his own advise.

LOL You need to read your bible more.

How can you substantiate this? You laugh at it and tell me to read my bible yet cannot offer proof to contradict my claim. The reason you can't is because it's not there. You will not find your stance in the Bible. Satan does not need to hide. He knocks on the front door and decieves people that way. That is why back-masking contradicts what we know to be Satan's strategy. Satan didn't leave any hidden messages or guise his evil when tempting Jesus. He laid it all there and laid his deciet outfront, there was no need to hide it.

Matt. 16:22  Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

23  But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

John 13:25  He then lying on Jesus

[O'Dannyboy]

This is by no means subliminal. Look at the good the group is trying to do, then look at some of the lyrics. Seems like a mixed message to me.

http://www.lyricsfreak.com/s/system-of-a-down/

http://www.systemofadown.com/newsFrame.html

:x:

[larryt]

This is by no means subliminal. Look at the good the group is trying to do, then look at some of the lyrics. Seems like a mixed message to me.

http://www.lyricsfreak.com/s/system-of-a-down/

http://www.systemofadown.com/newsFrame.html

:x:

O'Dannyboy,

I'm not familiar with this group. Are they a christian group?

LT

[O'Dannyboy]

I dunno if they are or if they claim to be. If you check some of the playlists of those who listen to them it rings of Christian rock.

This has been pretty obvious for some time but check this out.

http://www.killology.com/art_beh_conditioning.htm

I am still trying to find that website that does the "embedding" again.

[apothanein kerdos]

First off, with Peter, this is a matter of misunderstanding among many Christians. The word "satan" in the Greek is santanas which means "adversary". In fact, the Greek is merely a transliteration of the Hebrew, which as well is Satan. What Jesus is calling Peter here is adversary, not literally satan. Also, if we are to believe that Jesus is literally calling Peter satan, it still doesn't substantiate that Satan uses subliminal messages to get to people. It's very upfront and dishonest, yet never subliminal.

None of the other verses you provide substantiate the claim that Satan uses subliminal messages to get to people. He is dishonest and tells lies, yet not once do we see him using a subliminal message.

As for system of a down, they are far from being a Christian band.

And the site offered does not prove anything and it hotly contested. Some say TV has lead to violence among kids, however it's just a natural instinct withing them. The ancient Romans watched men kill each other for fun and they had no video games to influence them. Young boys growing up have grown up with violent tendencies, acting out cowboys and indians, shooting their play guns at other kids. Thus, it's nature that makes man so violent, not nurture.

[O'Dannyboy]

You may be right. I am still looking around for that web site. But kinda hard to find them sneaking around when they are right in front of ya.

http://www.lyricattack.com/h/hiddeninplainviewlyrics/