Preterism versus Futurism

[rollinTHUNDER]

While I can understand why others would believe otherwise, I also realize that most of them have no idea about the simple, down-to-earth literalism of the authors of the Scriptures, and I therefore believe that they are naively wrong. I never spiritualize anything in Scriptures and believe that the Christian allegorical interpretation of the Bible is an error with ancient roots (in the 200s-400s A.D.), started by people like Clement of Alexandria (150-215), Origen (184/5–253/4), Jerome (c. 347 – 30 September 420), and Augustine of Hippo (November 13, 354 – August 28, 430).

I agree. Those scholars then didn't seem to have a clue that God was going to re-gather His people (Jews) back into the promised land, which we know took place in 1948. So it seems much more excusable for them using an allegorical interpretation. But today, I believe it's down right shameful, after we have witnessed a literal re-gathering of the Jews, to still use an allegorical interpretation. Most believers who still do are anti-Semitic and practice replacement theology garbage. I wouldn't want to be in their shoes when the Lord returns.

Matthew 24 and 25, Mark 13, and Luke 21, in which are recorded the prophecy of Yeshua` known as the "Olivet Discourse," because He spoke the majority of His prophecy from Har haZeitiym (the Mount of Olives), is a prediction of events close (within the lifespans of His listeners) and far away in the future. He spoke about both the abomination of the Temple's and Jerusalem's desolation in 66 to 70 A.D., but He also spoke about the darkening of the sun, the moon being turned blood-red, and the stars (meteorites) falling from the sky, which is an event yet in our future. The "tribulation" (Greek: "thlipsis") covers that entire time period! It was a pressure put upon the Jews and the Jewish believers some 40 years after Yeshua`s rejection, death, resurrection, and ascension. Thus, the "tribulation" also known as the "times of the Goyim (Gentiles)" or the period of "Ya`aqov's trouble" or "Jacob's trouble," began in the first century but continues today and will continue until Yeshua` returns.

Here, though, I see a problem. There is no mention in Matt., Mark or Luke of a blood moon. When the blood moon is seen, God's wrath is about to be poured out before the day of the Lord (glorious millennial reign) begins (Joel 2:31, Acts 2:20, Rev. 6:12). This will be done at the very end.

However, the sun, moon and stars in the Olivet Discourse point to a different sign altogether, which will be done near the end as well, but before the blood moon appears. This sign in the Olivet Discourse, however, is a new moon, which scholars have completely overlooked. This will probably signal the beginning of the feast of trumpets, which is also when the rapture occurs, even though many scholars believe this is referring to the second coming, not the rapture. But there are several clues involved which eliminate the second coming here, but I'm not going to get into all of that here.

Matthew 24:29

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Cheerio

[Retrobyter]

...

Matthew 24 and 25, Mark 13, and Luke 21, in which are recorded the prophecy of Yeshua` known as the "Olivet Discourse," because He spoke the majority of His prophecy from Har haZeitiym (the Mount of Olives), is a prediction of events close (within the lifespans of His listeners) and far away in the future. He spoke about both the abomination of the Temple's and Jerusalem's desolation in 66 to 70 A.D., but He also spoke about the darkening of the sun, the moon being turned blood-red, and the stars (meteorites) falling from the sky, which is an event yet in our future. The "tribulation" (Greek: "thlipsis") covers that entire time period! It was a pressure put upon the Jews and the Jewish believers some 40 years after Yeshua`s rejection, death, resurrection, and ascension. Thus, the "tribulation" also known as the "times of the Goyim (Gentiles)" or the period of "Ya`aqov's trouble" or "Jacob's trouble," began in the first century but continues today and will continue until Yeshua` returns.

Here, though, I see a problem. There is no mention in Matt., Mark or Luke of a blood moon. When the blood moon is seen, God's wrath is about to be poured out before the day of the Lord (glorious millennial reign) begins (Joel 2:31, Acts 2:20, Rev. 6:12). This will be done at the very end.

However, the sun, moon and stars in the Olivet Discourse point to a different sign altogether, which will be done near the end as well, but before the blood moon appears. This sign in the Olivet Discourse, however, is a new moon, which scholars have completely overlooked. This will probably signal the beginning of the feast of trumpets, which is also when the rapture occurs, even though many scholars believe this is referring to the second coming, not the rapture. But there are several clues involved which eliminate the second coming here, but I'm not going to get into all of that here.

Matthew 24:29

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Cheerio

Why not get into it? Aren't we here to learn? Aren't we hear to discuss these matters? PLEASE, get into it!

Actually, you will find that Matthew 24:29 is a quote from Isaiah 13:10 and Isaiah 34:4

Isaiah 13:9-14:1

9 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.

13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the Lord of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

14 And it shall be as the chased roe, and as a sheep that no man taketh up: they shall every man turn to his own people, and flee every one into his own land.

15 Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword.

16 Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished.

17 Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, which shall not regard silver; and as for gold, they shall not delight in it.

18 Their bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eye shall not spare children.

19 And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.

20 It shall never be inhabited, neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation: neither shall the Arabian pitch tent there; neither shall the shepherds make their fold there.

21 But wild beasts of the desert shall lie there; and their houses shall be full of doleful creatures; and owls shall dwell there, and satyrs shall dance there.

22 And the wild beasts of the islands shall cry in their desolate houses, and dragons in their pleasant palaces: and her time is near to come, and her days shall not be prolonged.

14:1 For the Lord will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob.

KJV

This is then repeated in part within Isaiah 34:

Isaiah 34:1-8

1 Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it.

2 For the indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.

3 Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.

4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.

5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.

6 The sword of the Lord is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the Lord hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea.

7 And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness.

8 For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.

KJV

And, these verses are also quoted in Revelation 6:

Revelation 6:12-17

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

KJV

So, show me how these passages are inconsisent. I may not be from Missouri, but I went to a Bible college there for four years! SHOW ME! These are EXACTLY the same events through a chain of contextual clues, such as the "sky departing as a scroll when it is rolled together" and "skies being shaken and the ground being moved out of its place."

Furthermore, as I recall, verses 30 and 31 FOLLOW verse 29:

Matthew 24:29-31

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

KJV

This is not the Rapture, my friend; it's the Second Coming!

[ENOCH2010]

To be totally honest,I think the rapture and the second coming are the same event

[rollinTHUNDER]

Why not get into it? Aren't we here to learn? Aren't we hear to discuss these matters? PLEASE, get into it!

That would be way too much and get too involved for this tiny thread. That's why I wrote the book

Actually, you will find that Matthew 24:29 is a quote from Isaiah 13:10 and Isaiah 34:4

Isaiah 13:9-14:1

9 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.

13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the Lord of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

14 And it shall be as the chased roe, and as a sheep that no man taketh up: they shall every man turn to his own people, and flee every one into his own land.

15 Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword.

16 Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished.

17 Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, which shall not regard silver; and as for gold, they shall not delight in it.

18 Their bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eye shall not spare children.

19 And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.

20 It shall never be inhabited, neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation: neither shall the Arabian pitch tent there; neither shall the shepherds make their fold there.

21 But wild beasts of the desert shall lie there; and their houses shall be full of doleful creatures; and owls shall dwell there, and satyrs shall dance there.

22 And the wild beasts of the islands shall cry in their desolate houses, and dragons in their pleasant palaces: and her time is near to come, and her days shall not be prolonged.

14:1 For the Lord will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob.

KJV

This is then repeated in part within Isaiah 34:

Isaiah 34:1-8

1 Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it.

2 For the indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.

3 Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.

4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.

5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.

6 The sword of the Lord is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the Lord hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea.

7 And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness.

8 For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.

KJV

And, these verses are also quoted in Revelation 6:

Revelation 6:12-17

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

KJV

So, show me how these passages are inconsisent. I may not be from Missouri, but I went to a Bible college there for four years! SHOW ME! These are EXACTLY the same events through a chain of contextual clues, such as the "sky departing as a scroll when it is rolled together" and "skies being shaken and the ground being moved out of its place."

These are different from the sun, moon and stars in Matt. 24:29, and they occur at different times as well.

In Matt. 24:29, the sun does not shine, nor the moon, but the stars are clearly seen.

In Isaiah 13, the stars, sun and moon can not be seen at all, none of them.

In Rev. 6, The sun is blackened or darkened, while the moon will appear as blood red, and the stars will be falling to the earth.

You've got to realize that judgment will begin with the house of the Lord, but it appears that you have eliminated the rapture entirely, not only that, but the wedding supper of the Lamb that will take place in the kingdom of heaven as well.

Furthermore, as I recall, verses 30 and 31 FOLLOW verse 29:

Matthew 24:29-31

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

KJV

This is not the Rapture, my friend; it's the Second Coming!

What is the sign of the Son of man? The rapture won't have any signs as it will occur suddenly and unexpectedly, but once it happens, it will be a sign for the Jews who flee when they see the abomination of desolation. They will look up and know that their redemption draws near. Furthermore, what is this gathering with the great sound of the trumpet? If you believe this is the second coming, then why would we need the angels to gather us again, when we would already be like them after the rapture?

[Guest]

Merry Christmas Beloved

____________

_________

______

___

.... What is the sign of the Son of man? The rapture won't have any signs as it will occur suddenly and unexpectedly, but once it happens, it will be a sign for the Jews who flee when they see the abomination of desolation. They will look up and know that their redemption draws near....

Amen Beloved! Clearly It's Jesus

And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. Zechariah 12:10

Coming Back Down

Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. Acts 1:11

.... Furthermore, what is this gathering with the great sound of the trumpet? If you believe this is the second coming, then why would we need the angels to gather us again, when we would already be like them after the rapture?

Israel

I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. Romans 11:1-5

Is The Remnant

Hear the word of the LORD, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock. Jeremiah 31:10

And So We Pray

Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee. Psalms 122:6

Maranatha~!

[JohnD]

To be totally honest,I think the rapture and the second coming are the same event

1 Thessalonians 4:17 (KJV)

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Zechariah 14:4 (KJV)

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

Even if it's only 5 minutes before his return, Dude, it's not the same thing.

[JohnD]

Back on topic, Preterism is no more correct about the Jews than the Jews were correct about the Gentiles.

God's plan was first for the Jew then the Gentile meaning his plan of salvation was for all Israel then they would evangelize the world. Since they rejected Jesus, God went ahead with his Gentile evangelism to one day return to the Jews in his focus. Preterism says that 70 CE differs from 586 BCE (since Matthew 24:21 said the great tribulation never happened before) in that this destruction of the Temple and Holy City was God parting ways with the Jewish people forever for rejecting Jesus. Which is untrue.

Romans 11:23 (KJV)

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

Romans 11:28 (KJV)

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes.

Jeremiah 31:31-37 (KJV)

31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:

36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

37 Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

So, as I said to our Messianic Jewish friend Retrobyter, Preterism is antisemitic. And I do not believe he is as much a Preterist as he may have thought.

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, rollinTHUNDER.

Why not get into it? Aren't we here to learn? Aren't we hear to discuss these matters? PLEASE, get into it!

That would be way too much and get too involved for this tiny thread. That's why I wrote the book

If you please, what is the name of your book? You can send it to me privately, if you wish. Thanks.

Actually, you will find that Matthew 24:29 is a quote from Isaiah 13:10 and Isaiah 34:4

Isaiah 13:9-14:1

9 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.

13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the Lord of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

14 And it shall be as the chased roe, and as a sheep that no man taketh up: they shall every man turn to his own people, and flee every one into his own land.

15 Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword.

16 Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished.

17 Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, which shall not regard silver; and as for gold, they shall not delight in it.

18 Their bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eye shall not spare children.

19 And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.

20 It shall never be inhabited, neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation: neither shall the Arabian pitch tent there; neither shall the shepherds make their fold there.

21 But wild beasts of the desert shall lie there; and their houses shall be full of doleful creatures; and owls shall dwell there, and satyrs shall dance there.

22 And the wild beasts of the islands shall cry in their desolate houses, and dragons in their pleasant palaces: and her time is near to come, and her days shall not be prolonged.

14:1 For the Lord will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob.

KJV

This is then repeated in part within Isaiah 34:

Isaiah 34:1-8

1 Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it.

2 For the indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.

3 Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.

4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.

5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.

6 The sword of the Lord is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the Lord hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea.

7 And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness.

8 For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.

KJV

And, these verses are also quoted in Revelation 6:

Revelation 6:12-17

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

KJV

So, show me how these passages are inconsisent. I may not be from Missouri, but I went to a Bible college there for four years! SHOW ME! These are EXACTLY the same events through a chain of contextual clues, such as the "sky departing as a scroll when it is rolled together" and "skies being shaken and the ground being moved out of its place."

These are different from the sun, moon and stars in Matt. 24:29, and they occur at different times as well.

In Matt. 24:29, the sun does not shine, nor the moon, but the stars are clearly seen.

In Isaiah 13, the stars, sun and moon can not be seen at all, none of them.

In Rev. 6, The sun is blackened or darkened, while the moon will appear as blood red, and the stars will be falling to the earth.

If you would please look up the Hebrew of Isaiah 13, you will find that the stars and the constellations can still be seen, but not clearly, and that has to do with their COLOR! It's not that they can't be seen. Now, in the prophecies warning against the coming of Asshur (Assyria) and Bavel (Babylon), the wording is different: there, the sun, moon, and stars are darkened by reason of the smoke in the air. Not so in these prophecies.

You've got to realize that judgment will begin with the house of the Lord, but it appears that you have eliminated the rapture entirely, not only that, but the wedding supper of the Lamb that will take place in the kingdom of heaven as well.

Actually, I agree with ENOCH2010; the "Rapture" is part and parcel with the Second Coming. Based on your understanding of "the kingdom of heaven," I take it that you believe that this will occur in some realm called "Heaven," right? Sorry, but there's NO SUCH PLACE! We are NEVER instructed to anticipate "going to Heaven!" We are instructed, rather, to anticipate the RESURRECTION OF OUR BODIES and the RESURRECTION OF OUR LOVED ONES!

There's much involved in understanding the Scriptures on this matter: First, it is a common misunderstanding that we are three-part creatures consisting of "body, soul, and spirit," as though these three parts are three separate things that are then combined. Some believe that, when we die, our spirits and souls go to be with God and our bodies are buried in the ground. That's only partially and vaguely correct. The Greek word "sooma" (some write "soma") is translated "body." The Greek word "psuchee" is translated as "soul," and the Greek word "pneuma" is translated as "spirit." The Hebrew word "geviya`" is translated "body." The Hebrew word "nefesh" (some write "nephesh") is translated as "soul," and the Hebrew word "ruach" is translated as "spirit."

When you look closely at the words "pneuma" and "ruach," you will find that they are also translated as "wind" or "breath" as a "blowing" or "blast of air." When you look closely at the words "psuchee" and "nefesh," you will find that they mean "a breathing creature" or "one that breathes." Looking at the two sets of three words in both languages, one will discover that it is the "psuchee"/"nefesh" that is the LITERAL COMBINATION of the "sooma"/"geviya`" and the "pneuma"/"ruach." Concretely speaking, the only way that one can be a "breathing creature" is to have the "breath" combined with the "body!" If one wants to think of the "pneuma"/"ruach" as an "immaterial part" of a human being, then the "psuchee"/"nefesh" ("soul") must be a combination of the immaterial part ("pneuma"/"ruach"/"spirit") and the material part ("sooma"/"geviya`"/"body") of a human being. Therefore, "soul" = "spirit" + "body." When the "spirit" leaves the "body," it is no longer a "soul." I believe that the primary understanding IS the concrete, literal understanding of these words, and that they are strictly referring to the "breath" in a "body" making man a "living soul" - a "living breather." These Hebrew and Greek words are used for both human beings and for animals. The fact that human beings are "souls" is NOT what separates us from the animals! What separates us from the animals is the "IMAGE of God!"

As proof, if one will look up the Hebrew of Gen. 1:20, 21, 24, 30; and 2:19, one will find that the word "nefesh" is used for the animals. Thus, animals have "souls," too!

If one will look up the Hebrew of Gen. 6:17; 7:15, 22; and Eccl. 3:21, one will find that the word "ruach" is used for the animals. Thus, animals have "spirits," too!

There's no real mystery here. The same God who created human beings also created the animals, and we were BOTH created the same way, with the exception that God took special pains to create the Man and not just speaking him into existence.

A better understanding of this, gives us a clearer understanding of verses that use these words, either in Hebrew or in Greek: For instance, one will have a better understanding of Hebrews 4:12:

Hebrews 4:12

12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

KJV

The author of Hebrews is simply saying that the Word of God is ALIVE and POWERFUL and sharper than any two-edged sword, slicing even down to the dividing apart of the breathing creature from his breath, and of the joints from the marrow, and is someone who can tell the difference between the thoughts one has and the intentions of the core of one's being.

Also, the "kingdom of heaven" simply means the "kingdom from the sky," because the Greek word "ouranos," translated "heaven," means "the sky!" One can see this in the Greek of Matthew 16:1-4. (The same can also be said for the Hebrew.)

As far as the "wedding supper of the Lamb" occurring in "Heaven," or "the kingdom of heaven" as you add, there's a problem. A Jewish wedding is always accompanied with wine, as one can see at Yeshua`s first miracle at the wedding in Cana. HOWEVER, Yeshua` said,

Matthew 26:29

29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

KJV

Mark 14:25

25 Verily I say unto you, I will drink no more of the fruit of the vine, until that day that I drink it new in the kingdom of God.

KJV

Luke 22:18

18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.

KJV

This is not in some mythical, mystical, ethereal place called "Heaven," my friend; this is when HE RETURNS! When He comes back to this earth, THEN He will drink it new (FRESH from a new harvest) with His disciples!

Furthermore, as I recall, verses 30 and 31 FOLLOW verse 29:

Matthew 24:29-31

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

KJV

This is not the Rapture, my friend; it's the Second Coming!

What is the sign of the Son of man? The rapture won't have any signs as it will occur suddenly and unexpectedly, but once it happens, it will be a sign for the Jews who flee when they see the abomination of desolation. They will look up and know that their redemption draws near. Furthermore, what is this gathering with the great sound of the trumpet? If you believe this is the second coming, then why would we need the angels to gather us again, when we would already be like them after the rapture?

You are saying that the rapture won't have any signs and we would already be like them (the messengers) because you are assuming that the rapture happens first! However, if what ENOCH2010 and I are saying is correct, then the rapture is NOT what happens first, although it will be among the first things to happen at the Second Coming. The messengers (aggeloi or "angels") are there to gather us - to conduct us - to where we are going. Furthermore, we are NOT being gathered to be taken to "Heaven"; we are being gathered to be conducted to "ISRA'EL!" The Scriptures NEVER SAY that we go to "Heaven" following the Rapture! Indeed, the "Rapture" (Greek: "harpazo" meaning "to be snatched away," NOT "caught up") is a MASS TRANSIT SYSTEM to get us to where we need to be in the skies over Isra'el!

Yeshua` never says He will come back to take us to "Heaven"; He DOES say, however, that He will come back "with ten thousands of His saints" to fight against the nations who come against Isra'el and will DELIVER them! He will come back to RESCUE ISRA'EL! They are His FAMILY! LITERALLY!!

Finally, I'm not going to say a whole lot about it now, but the "abomination of desolation" is ALREADY STARTED (it started in the first century) and will continue until the "desolate," national Isra'el, are no longer "desolate" when they plead with God and say to His Messiah Yeshua`, "Baruwk haba' b'shem YHVH!" "Welcome, Comer in the authority of ADONAI!"

[Floatingaxe]

John 14:2-4

2In My Father's house there are many dwelling places (homes). If it were not so, I would have told you; for I am going away to prepare a place for you.

3And when (if) I go and make ready a place for you, I will come back again and will take you to Myself, that where I am you may be also.

4And [to the place] where I am going, you know the way.

[JohnD]

John 14:2-4

2In My Father's house there are many dwelling places (homes). If it were not so, I would have told you; for I am going away to prepare a place for you.

3And when (if) I go and make ready a place for you, I will come back again and will take you to Myself, that where I am you may be also.

4And [to the place] where I am going, you know the way.

A very good point. Not to be quarrelsome with brother Roy... but Ephesians 4:8-10 shows the initials pre-resurrected saints (in Avraham's bosom) as the disembodied human residents of heaven. And in Luke 23:43 Yeshua speaking to the first to die in faith going directly to heaven (paradise which is only used three times in scripture and all refer to the place where God is enthroned). 2 Corinthians 5:8 says when believers are absent from the body we are with the Lord whop is the lone resurrected human being / God the Word in heaven (Acts 2:33 / Hebrews 1:3 / 10:12).

What I think is being missed here is when humanity is resurrected, first comes the deliverance of Israel then the judgement of the lost and then old heavens and old earth are done away with replaced by the new heave and new earth (or as some wild eyed kooks like me believe... a new heaven-earth will result). So, brother Roy is correct in that we are not going to be in the present heaven in a resurrected form, but if we die before the end we will be in a disembodied state that is in our spirit.