Gentile Converts in Tribulation?

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, FresnoJoe.

ALWAYS look for the pronouns in the Olivet Discourse! If "ye" and "you" and "your" are being used, Yeshua` is talking DIRECTLY to those men sitting in front of Him! If not, THEN AND THEN ONLY may it refer to a future group of people, even those in OUR future, which can include US!....

From The Age Of Four And Five I Always Took It Personal, Even Sampson And The Chick

And she said unto him, How canst thou say, I love thee, when thine heart is not with me? thou hast mocked me these three times, and hast not told me wherein thy great strength lieth.

And it came to pass, when she pressed him daily with her words, and urged him, so that his soul was vexed unto death;

That he told her all his heart, and said unto her. There hath not come a rasor upon mine head; for I have been a Nazarite unto God from my mother's womb: if I be shaven, then my strength will go from me, and I shall become weak, and be like any other man.

And when Delilah saw that he had told her all his heart, she sent and called for the lords of the Philistines, saying, Come up this once, for he hath shewed me all his heart. Then the lords of the Philistines came up unto her, and brought money in their hand.

And she made him sleep upon her knees; and she called for a man, and she caused him to shave off the seven locks of his head; and she began to afflict him, and his strength went from him.

And she said, The Philistines be upon thee, Samson. And he awoke out of his sleep, and said, I will go out as at other times before, and shake myself. And he wist not that the LORD was departed from him.

But the Philistines took him, and put out his eyes, and brought him down to Gaza, and bound him with fetters of brass; and he did grind in the prison house. Judges 16:15-21

Or Nabad And Abihu

And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not.

And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD. Leviticus 10:1-2

These Fellows Sure Paid A Great Price To Teach A Kid A Thing Or Two

You can ALWAYS take God's Word - ANY part of God's Word - and learn something from it; however, we're talking about prophecy here! This particular prophecy has parts that are already fulfilled and parts that have yet to be fulfilled. The parts that were already fulfilled in the first century are still portions that can be a great tool for us historically, but only the parts that are left are to be expected in our future! That's all I'm saying.

[Larry 2]

Shalom, OneLight, and you too, TrackerJack.

Retrobyter,

Excellent job of illustrating the futility of discussing the tribulation and timing of events around it.

The Bible doesn't define "Great Tribulation". Therefore, it could be the first 3 1/2, the second 3 1/2, 7,or even 2000 years. Or it could be unrelated to any of those time periods.

How can you even discuss a topic, if you can't even agree on its definition?

I would encourage everyone to NOT listen to their Pastors on this issue, because they are usually parroting what they've learned in seminary

Address this topic by prayerfully approaching God's word and relying on the revelation of the Holy Spirit. (Rather on the traditions of man)

You are correct that it does not define what will happen, but it does give an indication as to when.

Matthew 24:15-22

Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

It has to be pretty bad if it is something that has never happened and so bad that nothing will be like it again.

Look, guys, the phrase, "for then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be," falls into the same category of impossible exaggeration as does the statement "if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out" (Luke 19:40). It's like saying "there's not a ghost of a chance!" The stones MAY have been able to "cry out," but we'll never know because it was IMPOSSIBLE for His disciples and the children to "hold their peace!"

Matthew 24:21 should NEVER be quoted without Matthew 24:20! The two are parts of a single thought! Just as partial truth is a lie, so quoting half of one of Yeshua`s statements is a misrepresentation of what He said!

This is what He said:

Matthew 24:20-21

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

KJV

They are LINKED TOGETHER! The instructions were to His disciples - those who were sitting on Har HaZeitiym (the Mount of Olives) right in front of Him - to pray to God that THEIR escape not have to be in the rainy season ("winter") or on the Shabbat (sabbath day), and if THEY NEGLECTED TO PRAY, "THEN shall be great tribulation (thlipsis = pressure; distress), such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no nor ever shall be"! It never happened then because they did NOT neglect to pray! This was the escape that some of Yeshua`s disciples IN THE FIRST CENTURY had to make about 66 A.D. before the destruction in 70 A.D.

ALWAYS look for the pronouns in the Olivet Discourse! If "ye" and "you" and "your" are being used, Yeshua` is talking DIRECTLY to those men sitting in front of Him! If not, THEN AND THEN ONLY may it refer to a future group of people, even those in OUR future, which can include US!

All that you say might be applicable if not for the three questions below.

Matthew 24:3 And as He sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of Thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. What generation? The one that includes all of Matthrew Chapter twenty-four.

With your thinking, has Jesus already come as Josephus testified of, and even he said his testimony would sound like a fable; I agree. Ever heard of Preterism? Thanks.

[Guest]

You can ALWAYS take God's Word - ANY part of God's Word - and learn something from it; however, we're talking about prophecy here! This particular prophecy has parts that are already fulfilled and parts that have yet to be fulfilled. The parts that were already fulfilled in the first century are still portions that can be a great tool for us historically, but only the parts that are left are to be expected in our future! That's all I'm saying....

Amen~!

It's Still Personal To Me

For All The Bible Is Alive To Me

And Prophecy Is Near And Dear To My Heart

Partly Because Most Of What Is Left Points To The Total Restoration Of The Jew To His Land And To His LORD

I've Wept For Israel For Over Twenty-Five Years As I've Watched The Killing Machines Forming Up Again Around The World

And The Word Greatly Reassures My Soul And Comforts My Spirit

For It Shows The LORD Wining And Israel Standing

And I Will See It One Way Or The Other

Maybe Sooner Than Later

Maranatha~!

~

Perhaps This Will Help Perhaps Not

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Larry 2.

Shalom, OneLight, and you too, TrackerJack.

Retrobyter,

Excellent job of illustrating the futility of discussing the tribulation and timing of events around it.

The Bible doesn't define "Great Tribulation". Therefore, it could be the first 3 1/2, the second 3 1/2, 7,or even 2000 years. Or it could be unrelated to any of those time periods.

How can you even discuss a topic, if you can't even agree on its definition?

I would encourage everyone to NOT listen to their Pastors on this issue, because they are usually parroting what they've learned in seminary

Address this topic by prayerfully approaching God's word and relying on the revelation of the Holy Spirit. (Rather on the traditions of man)

You are correct that it does not define what will happen, but it does give an indication as to when.

Matthew 24:15-22

Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

It has to be pretty bad if it is something that has never happened and so bad that nothing will be like it again.

Look, guys, the phrase, "for then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be," falls into the same category of impossible exaggeration as does the statement "if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out" (Luke 19:40). It's like saying "there's not a ghost of a chance!" The stones MAY have been able to "cry out," but we'll never know because it was IMPOSSIBLE for His disciples and the children to "hold their peace!"

Matthew 24:21 should NEVER be quoted without Matthew 24:20! The two are parts of a single thought! Just as partial truth is a lie, so quoting half of one of Yeshua`s statements is a misrepresentation of what He said!

This is what He said:

Matthew 24:20-21

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

KJV

They are LINKED TOGETHER! The instructions were to His disciples - those who were sitting on Har HaZeitiym (the Mount of Olives) right in front of Him - to pray to God that THEIR escape not have to be in the rainy season ("winter") or on the Shabbat (sabbath day), and if THEY NEGLECTED TO PRAY, "THEN shall be great tribulation (thlipsis = pressure; distress), such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no nor ever shall be"! It never happened then because they did NOT neglect to pray! This was the escape that some of Yeshua`s disciples IN THE FIRST CENTURY had to make about 66 A.D. before the destruction in 70 A.D.

ALWAYS look for the pronouns in the Olivet Discourse! If "ye" and "you" and "your" are being used, Yeshua` is talking DIRECTLY to those men sitting in front of Him! If not, THEN AND THEN ONLY may it refer to a future group of people, even those in OUR future, which can include US!

All that you say might be applicable if not for the three questions below.

Matthew 24:3 And as He sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of Thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. What generation? The one that includes all of Matthrew Chapter twenty-four.

With your thinking, has Jesus already come as Josephus testified of, and even he said his testimony would sound like a fable; I agree. Ever heard of Preterism? Thanks.

Sure, I've heard of Preterism, but I'm not a Preterist. At best (or worst?), one might call me a "partial preterist," although I don't subscribe to any particular view called "Partial Preterism." I believe that SOME of Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 were fulfilled in the first century A.D., but I also believe that SOME of the chapters won't be fulfilled until the Messiah returns. Yeshua` has NOT already come, despite Josephus' fable, and both the "generation" of unbelieving Jews and the time of Ya`aqov's Trouble (Jacob's Trouble) started in the first century but have continued up to the present and will continue until the Messiah's return.

As I said, one can distinguish between events that occurred in the past and those that will yet occur in the future by simply checking the pronouns used. If the pronouns are "ye," "you," "your," or "yours" (the plurals of the second person) referring directly to His immediate disciples, then those portions were fulfilled IN THEIR LIFETIME! If the pronouns are not used, then He was talking more nebulously about the events of the future.

And, just as a side note, the "end of the world" is "sunteleias tou aioonos" in transliterated Greek, meaning "with-[the]-end of-the age." It does NOT refer to the end of all things, but merely the ending of this present age.

(I'll just HAVE to finish my book!)

Edited February 23, 2012 by Retrobyter