Gentile Converts in Tribulation?

[Ephesians__6_24]

Revelation 7

Rev 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

Rev 7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Rev 7:5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.

Rev 7:6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.

Rev 7:7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.

Rev 7:8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Rev 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

Rev 7:11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

Rev 7:12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Rev 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

Rev 7:16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

Rev 7:17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

- Is there any scripture that states that there will be Gentile Converts from within the Tribulation period?

- Could verse 9 be referring to the 144 000 Jews and the Jews and Gentiles of the church who were raptured?

- Verse 14 indicates that "These are they which came out of great tribulation"

- Would this "coming out of the great tribulation" line up with the rapture of the church and the Daniel 12:1 Jews?

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

- How are the Jews "delivered" (Daniel 12:1) ?

Edited February 19, 2012 by Ephesians__6_24

[Guest]

The Royal Children

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. Daniel 12:1-3

Of The KING

And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. John 5:27-29

Will Stand

And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. Revelation 7:13-15

In Him

And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call. Joel 2:32

~

.... How are the Jews "delivered" (Daniel 12:1)....

Jesus Saves

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. Romans 11:25-29

Jesus Really Saves

Behold, I will gather them out of all countries, whither I have driven them in mine anger, and in my fury, and in great wrath; and I will bring them again unto this place, and I will cause them to dwell safely: And they shall be my people, and I will be their God:

And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them, and of their children after them: And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

Yea, I will rejoice over them to do them good, and I will plant them in this land assuredly with my whole heart and with my whole soul. Jeremiah 32:37-41

~

Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27

Love, Your Brother Joe

[Ephesians__6_24]

The 144 000...

Romans 11:1-5

Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,

Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

"at this present time"...

- Is this referring to the total number of all historical and present and future (Lord-willing) saved Jews?

As God is the God of Abraham (living) and all live unto him?

Luke 20:37-38

Luke 20:37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.

Luke 20:38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.

Those who are in the grave... but are "living"... could this be what the 144 000 is referring to? and Romans 11:5 ---> "at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace"

Revelation 7

Rev 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

Rev 7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Rev 7:5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.

Rev 7:6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.

Rev 7:7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.

Rev 7:8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Is verse 9 referring to Gentiles and Jews of the church, and also Gentiles which are saved after the rapture of the church?

- If this is referring to Gentiles which are saved after the rapture of the church... where else in scripture does it speak of this?

- Who specifically is verse 9 referring to?

a) The Church (Jews and Gentiles)

c) The Tribulation Jews and the Gentiles

d) Just strictly Gentiles (and if so)

i) Gentiles of the church, or

ii) Gentiles of the tribulation, or

iii) both?

Rev 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

Rev 7:11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

Rev 7:12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Rev 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

Rev 7:16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

Rev 7:17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

FresnoJoe:

The Royal Children

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. Daniel 12:1-3

Of The KING

And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. John 5:27-29

Will Stand

And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. Revelation 7:13-15

In Him

And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call. Joel 2:32

- Is Revelation 7:9 referring to Jews and not Gentiles?

Hm.. would Joel 2:32 "and in the remnant" be stating that Revelation 7:9 is referring to the Gentiles and Jews? (Which Gentiles though, those of the church? or those of the tribulation? are there Tribulation Gentiles?) (and which Jews? all Jews that children of promise - Romans 9:6-8 - (and would "all Israel" Romans 11:26 be referring to the "children of promise" Romans 9:6-8?)

- What time is Joel 2:32 speaking of?

Edited February 19, 2012 by Ephesians__6_24

[Ephesians__6_24]

Hmm...

Perhaps:

i) There were 7000 Jews reserved at a previous time (Romans 11:1-4),

ii) There are at this present time the remnant of grace (Romans 11:5)

(the 'remnant' being: Jews & Gentiles, the Body of Christ - Ephesians 5:30, Ephesians 2:12-22, Ephesians 3:6),

and

iii) There will be a remnant of the Jews (144 000) in the tribulation period (Revelation 7:3)...

And Revelation 7 is speaking about "shortening those days" "for the elect's [only the Jew's ?] sake" [Mark 13:19-20]

- (I still have the question concerning Gentiles saved in the tribulation).

Mark 13:19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

Mark 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

A question arises out of Revelation 7:3:

- When do the "servants of our God" get "sealed... ...in their foreheads" ?

- What is the "seal... ...in their foreheads" (Revelation 7:3) speaking of?

- If the "seal" (In Revelation 7:3) is speaking about when "the Deliverer" comes and "[turns] away ungodliness from Jacob" (Romans 11:26)

Then;

- Is there a "wrath" for the earth after the tribulation (seeing as Revelation 7:3 states not to Hurt the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees until we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.)?

Edited February 19, 2012 by Ephesians__6_24

[JohnD]

The Bible is clear that all who receive the mark of the beast will not be saved. If all but those who already believe accept the mark how can anyone be saved who isn't already saved? My point is that all converts in the tribulation period will have done so before 666 is issued.

[Ephesians__6_24]

The Bible is clear that all who receive the mark of the beast will not be saved. If all but those who already believe accept the mark how can anyone be saved who isn't already saved? My point is that all converts in the tribulation period will have done so before 666 is issued.

Would the Revelation 7:1-4 "[sealing] the servants of our God in their foreheads" be speaking about something different than the mark in Revelation 20:4 ?

Rev 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

Rev 7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

[OneLight]

The first is the seal of God and the second the mark of the beast. Quite opposite, to be truthful.

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Ephesians__6_24.

Revelation 7

Rev 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

Rev 7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Rev 7:5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.

Rev 7:6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.

Rev 7:7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.

Rev 7:8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Rev 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

Rev 7:11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

Rev 7:12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Rev 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

Rev 7:16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

Rev 7:17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

- Is there any scripture that states that there will be Gentile Converts from within the Tribulation period?

- Could verse 9 be referring to the 144 000 Jews and the Jews and Gentiles of the church who were raptured?

- Verse 14 indicates that "These are they which came out of great tribulation"

- Would this "coming out of the great tribulation" line up with the rapture of the church and the Daniel 12:1 Jews?

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

- How are the Jews "delivered" (Daniel 12:1) ?

It's no mystery to me because I've learned that the tribulation is NOT just a seven-year period! It has been going on since the first century A.D.! Therefore, because we have been added to Yeshua`s Isra'el to become His Kingdom when He returns, then the answer is simply YES, and the books of Acts, Romans, 1&2 Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1&2 Thessalonians, 1&2 Timothy, Titus, Philemon, Hebrews, James, 1&2 Peter, 1&2&3 John and Jude are ALL proof that there will be Gentile converts from within the Tribulation period, just as some of us are today! God has made this a time of "Jacob's Trouble" or "Ya`aqov's PRESSURE (Greek: thlipsis, translated "tribulation")," a time for Yerushalayim (Jerusalem) to be trodden under foot by the Gentiles until the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled! One day the Jews, particularly those of Yerushalayim, Isra'el - the leaders of the Tribe of Y'hudah - will welcome Yeshua` as the Messiah of God and He will return as promised. But, until that time comes, we are still in the "PRESSURE PERIOD", the tribulation period.

[Retrobyter]

P.S., you asked, "How are the Jews 'delivered?'" It depends on what you mean by "delivered."

If you're talking about a person's justification by God, sometimes referred to as "salvation" or being "born again," then they are "delivered" the same way Gentiles are delivered! By grace, through faith, by blood. They are grafted into THEIR OWN OLIVE TREE just as Gentiles are grafted in as "wild olive branches against nature."

If you're talking about real deliverance, rescue or "salvation" as it is portrayed in the prophecies of the Tanakh (the OT), they will be delivered when Yeshua` the Messiah returns and fights for them to liberate them from oppression, captivity, abuse, and an attempt at genocide. When he rounds up the enemies and gathers them in the valley of Yizre'el under the watchtower of Har-Megiddown (Armageddon), He will deliver them from their enemies by putting those enemies to death and feeding their carcases to the birds and wild beasts.

[TrackerJack]

Retrobyter,

Excellent job of illustrating the futility of discussing the tribulation and timing of events around it.

The Bible doesn't define "Great Tribulation". Therefore, it could be the first 3 1/2, the second 3 1/2, 7,or even 2000 years. Or it could be unrelated to any of those time periods.

How can you even discuss a topic, if you can't even agree on its definition?

I would encourage everyone to NOT listen to their Pastors on this issue, because they are usually parroting what they've learned in seminary

Address this topic by prayerfully approaching God's word and relying on the revelation of the Holy Spirit. (Rather on the traditions of man)