Suffering....What Is The Truth?

[AnotherSinner]

This is something I have seen in various perspectives, taught so many ways in church today. What is the truth though?

Do the wicked suffer along with the righteous? This was something I have always believed as we see Job, who was a righteous man, brought to undergo much suffering in the OT. All this to test his faith and perhaps help him grow in faith.

Does God bring suffering? This is something I have alwasy believed not to be so. As Satan himself tends to delight in our shortcomings as well as our struggles especially if it puts us at a struggling point in our faith. Also the book of Job refers to Satan imploring God to let him torment Job so that Job might curse God and die.

Does God bring suffering into our lives when we do wrong? Does because something bad happens or some misfortune of some great or small degree strikes in our lives...does it mean that there is or has to be a sin that needs to be addressed?

I have really wanted to do some serious scriptural and doctrinal research on this. So any passages or the like that can be provided would be of great help. This issue really weighs heavily on my heart right now.

[Guest]

Trust

Rejoice evermore.

Pray without ceasing.

In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you. 1 Thessalonians 5:16-18

~

This is something I have seen in various perspectives, taught so many ways in church today. What is the truth though?

Do the wicked suffer along with the righteous? This was something I have always believed as we see Job, who was a righteous man, brought to undergo much suffering in the OT. All this to test his faith and perhaps help him grow in faith.

Does God bring suffering? This is something I have alwasy believed not to be so. As Satan himself tends to delight in our shortcomings as well as our struggles especially if it puts us at a struggling point in our faith. Also the book of Job refers to Satan imploring God to let him torment Job so that Job might curse God and die.

Does God bring suffering into our lives when we do wrong? Does because something bad happens or some misfortune of some great or small degree strikes in our lives...does it mean that there is or has to be a sin that needs to be addressed?

I have really wanted to do some serious scriptural and doctrinal research on this. So any passages or the like that can be provided would be of great help. This issue really weighs heavily on my heart right now....

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8

Start

Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. 2 Timothy 3:12

With

Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you. Matthew 5:10-12

Jesus

Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.

For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully.

For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.

For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:

Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:

Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:

Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. 1 Peter 2:18-24

[nChrist]

The following Scripture has helped me many times in my life and helped me to understand this subject. I hope they do the same for you.

2 Corinthians 1:1-11 KJV 1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia: 2 Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort; 4 Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God. 5 For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also aboundeth by Christ. 6 And whether we be afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation, which is effectual in the enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer: or whether we be comforted, it is for your consolation and salvation. 7 And our hope of you is stedfast, knowing, that as ye are partakers of the sufferings, so shall ye be also of the consolation. 8 For we would not, brethren, have you ignorant of our trouble which came to us in Asia, that we were pressed out of measure, above strength, insomuch that we despaired even of life: 9 But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead: 10 Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver us; 11 Ye also helping together by prayer for us, that for the gift bestowed upon us by the means of many persons thanks may be given by many on our behalf.

Romans 8:16-28 KJV The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. 18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. 20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. 24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? 25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it. 26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

2 Corinthians 5:1-21 KJV 1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. 5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. 6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences. 12 For we commend not ourselves again unto you, but give you occasion to glory on our behalf, that ye may have somewhat to answer them which glory in appearance, and not in heart. 13 For whether we be beside ourselves, it is to God: or whether we be sober, it is for your cause. 14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. 16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. 17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. 21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

[AnotherSinner]

The following Scripture has helped me many times in my life and helped me to understand this subject. I hope they do the same for you.

2 Corinthians 1:1-11 KJV 1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia: 2 Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort; 4 Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God. 5 For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also aboundeth by Christ. 6 And whether we be afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation, which is effectual in the enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer: or whether we be comforted, it is for your consolation and salvation. 7 And our hope of you is stedfast, knowing, that as ye are partakers of the sufferings, so shall ye be also of the consolation. 8 For we would not, brethren, have you ignorant of our trouble which came to us in Asia, that we were pressed out of measure, above strength, insomuch that we despaired even of life: 9 But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead: 10 Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver us; 11 Ye also helping together by prayer for us, that for the gift bestowed upon us by the means of many persons thanks may be given by many on our behalf.

Romans 8:16-28 KJV The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. 18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. 20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. 24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? 25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it. 26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

2 Corinthians 5:1-21 KJV 1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. 5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. 6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences. 12 For we commend not ourselves again unto you, but give you occasion to glory on our behalf, that ye may have somewhat to answer them which glory in appearance, and not in heart. 13 For whether we be beside ourselves, it is to God: or whether we be sober, it is for your cause. 14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. 16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. 17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. 21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Thank you for sharing the many passages you have with me. Just find there is so much confusion within the church any more. For I see so many churches or people who believe with all their hearts that when things go wrong that God must be angry with them. It just breaks my heart to see it. A lot of other questions that often follow these that I have seen are ones like these:

If God is such a loving God, why does so much evil happen?

How can such a merciful God allow such aweful things to happen?

Why is there so much pain? Death? Destruction today?

Why is this happening to me?

What did I do to deserve this?

Sometimes I feel the questions that should be asked though are:

Why not me?

What can I learn from this?

What blessings can be found?

What can I do about this?

How can I help those who are currently facing this or that?

What does God want me to do?

Suffering naturally is not something any of us really delight in. I know I do not....but think so many today are being taught false doctrines of condemnation...if they are anything less than perfect. The only perfect soul I know of...is Jesus Christ, who died for us, why is it then that so many are being led astray with this doctrine of fear? Where did it come from?

[AnotherSinner]

I am just a babe in my faith. There is much still I do not know. Just cannot help but wonder how if this doctrine is false....it is so widely believed and where it originated. How can scripture be used to support the truth that argues against so many negative beliefs? Is there a way that this deception can be countered with truth?

Edited March 14, 2012 by AnotherSinner

[OldShep]

The following Scripture has helped me many times in my life and helped me to understand this subject. I hope they do the same for you.

2 Corinthians 1:1-11 KJV 1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia: 2 Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort; 4 Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God. 5 For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also aboundeth by Christ. 6 And whether we be afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation, which is effectual in the enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer: or whether we be comforted, it is for your consolation and salvation. 7 And our hope of you is stedfast, knowing, that as ye are partakers of the sufferings, so shall ye be also of the consolation. 8 For we would not, brethren, have you ignorant of our trouble which came to us in Asia, that we were pressed out of measure, above strength, insomuch that we despaired even of life: 9 But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead: 10 Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver us; 11 Ye also helping together by prayer for us, that for the gift bestowed upon us by the means of many persons thanks may be given by many on our behalf.

Romans 8:16-28 KJV The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. 18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. 20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. 24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? 25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it. 26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

2 Corinthians 5:1-21 KJV 1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. 5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. 6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences. 12 For we commend not ourselves again unto you, but give you occasion to glory on our behalf, that ye may have somewhat to answer them which glory in appearance, and not in heart. 13 For whether we be beside ourselves, it is to God: or whether we be sober, it is for your cause. 14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. 16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. 17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. 21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Thank you for sharing the many passages you have with me. Just find there is so much confusion within the church any more. For I see so many churches or people who believe with all their hearts that when things go wrong that God must be angry with them. It just breaks my heart to see it. A lot of other questions that often follow these that I have seen are ones like these:

If God is such a loving God, why does so much evil happen?

How can such a merciful God allow such aweful things to happen?

Why is there so much pain? Death? Destruction today?

Why is this happening to me?

What did I do to deserve this?

Sometimes I feel the questions that should be asked though are:

Why not me?

What can I learn from this?

What blessings can be found?

What can I do about this?

How can I help those who are currently facing this or that?

What does God want me to do?

Suffering naturally is not something any of us really delight in. I know I do not....but think so many today are being taught false doctrines of condemnation...if they are anything less than perfect. The only perfect soul I know of...is Jesus Christ, who died for us, why is it then that so many are being led astray with this doctrine of fear? Where did it come from?

Well now from one sinner to AnotherSinner.

For I see so many churches or people who believe with all their hearts that when things go wrong that God must be angry with them.

I have observed this to, I think that people on a whole need answers as to why bad thing happen to them and seek to blame God for those bad things, when in fact, those bad events can be just life or the actions of other people's Free Will. I personally can not see God, reaching out His hand in some kind of judgement against man for something that He, sent his son to die on the cross for. Bad stuff some times just happens, floods happen, big winds just happen, people choose to kill other people, God is not the blame.

My past is filled with death and dieing, filled with pain, anger and hate, God did not do it, people did it, and some of those bad things happened because I choose to do bad things, God was not the blame, "I was". Yet, with all the death and with all the horrors that I have seen in my life, God has turned those events into something that can be used for good. I know what it feels like to lose a loved one, I know what it feels like to lose a child, I know what it feels like to have a loved one addicted to drugs, I know what it feels like to have the police come a knocking at your door. I know what it feel like to witness the horrors of what man can do to man for I have lived through it. Yea, I asked the question "why me Lord" yet I continued on and did what needed to be done while trying to do the right thing for all.When I returned home from serving my country I was called a baby killer, yet no babies were ever killed by me, I saved a few, yet not all. False guilt follows me for those that I cold not save, false guilt follows me for those people I could not help because they chose not to be helped. God was not the blame, we the people who chose to twist and turn their backs to God are accountable for most of the actions that befall us. Build a house on a sandy beach and one day it will be washed away, God is not doing the washing, the Ocean is.

Mat_5:44 But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,

Luk_6:28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you.

Luk_8:14 The seed that fell among thorns stands for those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by life's worries, riches and pleasures, and they do not mature.

Joh_17:20 "My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message,

Act_1:16 and said, "Brothers, the Scripture had to be fulfilled which the Holy Spirit spoke long ago through the mouth of David

But for the Grace of God go I......

Fear, does not come from Him that Died for us, it comes form with-in us or from Satan.

2Ti 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

2Ti 1:8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;

2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

2Ti 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

ICL~~~Dennis

[Guest]

You might want to have a look at Psalm 73.

The psalmist didn't understand why the wicked seem to prosper like crazy while the righteous suffer, either. Until he went to the temple to worship, that is. Then he understood something of the "big picture."

Psalm 73 (NASB)

You might find this booklet helpful also:

Why is Life So Unfair?

[AnotherSinner]

The following Scripture has helped me many times in my life and helped me to understand this subject. I hope they do the same for you.

2 Corinthians 1:1-11 KJV 1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia: 2 Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort; 4 Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God. 5 For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also aboundeth by Christ. 6 And whether we be afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation, which is effectual in the enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer: or whether we be comforted, it is for your consolation and salvation. 7 And our hope of you is stedfast, knowing, that as ye are partakers of the sufferings, so shall ye be also of the consolation. 8 For we would not, brethren, have you ignorant of our trouble which came to us in Asia, that we were pressed out of measure, above strength, insomuch that we despaired even of life: 9 But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead: 10 Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver us; 11 Ye also helping together by prayer for us, that for the gift bestowed upon us by the means of many persons thanks may be given by many on our behalf.

Romans 8:16-28 KJV The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. 18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. 20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. 24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? 25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it. 26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

2 Corinthians 5:1-21 KJV 1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. 5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. 6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences. 12 For we commend not ourselves again unto you, but give you occasion to glory on our behalf, that ye may have somewhat to answer them which glory in appearance, and not in heart. 13 For whether we be beside ourselves, it is to God: or whether we be sober, it is for your cause. 14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. 16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. 17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. 21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Thank you for sharing the many passages you have with me. Just find there is so much confusion within the church any more. For I see so many churches or people who believe with all their hearts that when things go wrong that God must be angry with them. It just breaks my heart to see it. A lot of other questions that often follow these that I have seen are ones like these:

If God is such a loving God, why does so much evil happen?

How can such a merciful God allow such aweful things to happen?

Why is there so much pain? Death? Destruction today?

Why is this happening to me?

What did I do to deserve this?

Sometimes I feel the questions that should be asked though are:

Why not me?

What can I learn from this?

What blessings can be found?

What can I do about this?

How can I help those who are currently facing this or that?

What does God want me to do?

Suffering naturally is not something any of us really delight in. I know I do not....but think so many today are being taught false doctrines of condemnation...if they are anything less than perfect. The only perfect soul I know of...is Jesus Christ, who died for us, why is it then that so many are being led astray with this doctrine of fear? Where did it come from?

Well now from one sinner to AnotherSinner.

For I see so many churches or people who believe with all their hearts that when things go wrong that God must be angry with them.

I have observed this to, I think that people on a whole need answers as to why bad thing happen to them and seek to blame God for those bad things, when in fact, those bad events can be just life or the actions of other people's Free Will. I personally can not see God, reaching out His hand in some kind of judgement against man for something that He, sent his son to die on the cross for. Bad stuff some times just happens, floods happen, big winds just happen, people choose to kill other people, God is not the blame.

My past is filled with death and dieing, filled with pain, anger and hate, God did not do it, people did it, and some of those bad things happened because I choose to do bad things, God was not the blame, "I was". Yet, with all the death and with all the horrors that I have seen in my life, God has turned those events into something that can be used for good. I know what it feels like to lose a loved one, I know what it feels like to lose a child, I know what it feels like to have a loved one addicted to drugs, I know what it feels like to have the police come a knocking at your door. I know what it feel like to witness the horrors of what man can do to man for I have lived through it. Yea, I asked the question "why me Lord" yet I continued on and did what needed to be done while trying to do the right thing for all.When I returned home from serving my country I was called a baby killer, yet no babies were ever killed by me, I saved a few, yet not all. False guilt follows me for those that I cold not save, false guilt follows me for those people I could not help because they chose not to be helped. God was not the blame, we the people who chose to twist and turn their backs to God are accountable for most of the actions that befall us. Build a house on a sandy beach and one day it will be washed away, God is not doing the washing, the Ocean is.

Mat_5:44 But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,

Luk_6:28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you.

Luk_8:14 The seed that fell among thorns stands for those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by life's worries, riches and pleasures, and they do not mature.

Joh_17:20 "My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message,

Act_1:16 and said, "Brothers, the Scripture had to be fulfilled which the Holy Spirit spoke long ago through the mouth of David

But for the Grace of God go I......

Fear, does not come from Him that Died for us, it comes form with-in us or from Satan.

2Ti 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

2Ti 1:8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;

2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

2Ti 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

ICL~~~Dennis

Thank you Dennis for the welcome. Some people call me Renee. Others call me Danielle. A select few call me Dani.

Although perhaps I am rather young, I too have known various degrees of suffering. I have lost loved ones to cancer, suicide, as well as the negligent driving of others. I have had family addicted to drugs as well as alcohol. Others who have been the cause of or subject to physical violence. I....myself...have been prey to molestation as a child. There has been times in the past my heart was hardened against God because of such events. The first time I faced this question:

If God is such a loving God, why do so many bad things happen?

I was stumped. I had no answer. As a young college student fresh out of high school on fire for God, I discovered my fire quickly extinquished by doubt.

In time though....God led me to the book of Job and some of the answers to some of those questions I asked above have been found. Just do not understand where the idea of suffering in another's life means that there is sin that is unaddressed or God must be angry with them came from. How did this lie start? Has there been verses that have been used in your experience that have eased the hearts and minds of some who once felt that God resented them due to the struggles they experienced in their lives? How might I reach out to a soul, such as a dear friend who feels this way?

[nebula]

Hey there, Renee Danielle -

The question of suffering is one theologians have struggled with for centuries. If you search the theology section of a bookstore, you may find several books on the topic.

One thing you need to understand is that we live in a broken fallen world, and as such we have to live in brokenness and falleness. I'm not saying that makes it any easier, just a fact that you need to keep in mind in the struggle.

But when you get down to it, even if we could have all the answers on "why", it wouldn't sooth the pain any. Just consider how the above sentence made you feel - not any better, huh?

All I know is that when I'm hurting, I turn to songs such as "Find Me in the River" by Delirious, "You Are Still Holy" by Kim Hill, "Carry On" by Harvest - you can YouTube search any of these if you'd like to hear them. In the end, all you can do is run to the arms of Father God and cry on His shoulder and find peace an healing in His arms.

[OneLight]

For I see so many churches or people who believe with all their hearts that when things go wrong that God must be angry with them. It just breaks my heart to see it.

That is the result of false doctrine where people are told that if they have enough faith, they can have whatever they want. There are many names for this; Name it and Claim it, Prosperity Gospel, Word of Faith, to name a few. what they fail to teach is that God will not give you what He knows will hurt you, no mater how much faith you have.

A lot of other questions that often follow these that I have seen are ones like these:

If God is such a loving God, why does so much evil happen?

How can such a merciful God allow such aweful things to happen?

Why is there so much pain? Death? Destruction today?

All the above is the result of sin. God does not do this to us, we do this to ourselves or others do it to us.

Why is this happening to me?

What did I do to deserve this?

There will always be lessons in life that are painful. There are a few sayings that make sense here; "God never promised us a rose garden" and "Every rose has a thorn". When we accepted Jesus, we agreed to become a new creation in Him, to be like Christ. This means change of heart, actions and thoughts. We are to have the mind of Christ. Problems to us arise when our will and desires do not line up with His. Then the battle begins. We have to decide to either give up our "self" and allow Him to change us, or we harden our hearts toward Him and suffer the consequences.

Sometimes I feel the questions that should be asked though are:

Why not me?

What can I learn from this?

What blessings can be found?

What can I do about this?

How can I help those who are currently facing this or that?

What does God want me to do?

Suffering naturally is not something any of us really delight in. I know I do not....but think so many today are being taught false doctrines of condemnation...if they are anything less than perfect. The only perfect soul I know of...is Jesus Christ, who died for us, why is it then that so many are being led astray with this doctrine of fear? Where did it come from?

Exactly!