Predestination

[godrulz]

God foreknows everything, but He allows man to choose salvation or reject it. In spite of His will, and His love for individuals, and His desire that no one perish, most will. (Matthew 7:14)

2 Peter 3:9

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Exhaustive definite foreknowledge is not compatible with free will. This can be shown with very technical arguments (modal logic, etc.) or common sense.

[Floatingaxe]

God foreknows everything, but He allows man to choose salvation or reject it. In spite of His will, and His love for individuals, and His desire that no one perish, most will. (Matthew 7:14)

2 Peter 3:9

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Exhaustive definite foreknowledge is not compatible with free will. This can be shown with very technical arguments (modal logic, etc.) or common sense.

Yes it is compatible. God knows who will be His by their own free will. Simple, simple, simple.

[OneLight]

I keep it as simple as possible. God, being Omnipresence, looks down through time and knows who will accept salvation through the free will He gave all, and knowing who will, He predestines them to conform to His Son before He even created the foundations of this earth. To me, it is that simple.

All these titles just confuse me ...

This is more a simple foreknowledge, Arminian view. It assumes something without proving it (begs the question). It also confuses time and space. The future is not yet, does not exist. It is not a thing, place, space that God can look at like a film and see it. In your view, free will creatures have settled the future and lived their lives before they are even born?! This is absurd, nonsensical, even for an omniscient God (you also confuse omniscience and omnipresence). Predestination, free will, exhaustive foreknowledge are simply not compatible. Calvinistic appeals to mystery, antimony, paradox, etc. don't cut it when there is a more biblical, coherent view available.

I make one statement and you discovered all this in it! I am amazed at how far off from what I said you have taken this.

No, it does not:

• assume something without proving it
• confuse time and space
• settle the future
• lived their lives before being born

You could not be further from what I said even if you tried.

It seems by your words that you do not believe God is Omnipresence. Oh, and I used the term correctly. He is able to be in the past and future at the same time, for He lives outside of our time constraints. By doing so, He knows all, of is Omnipresence.

[OneLight]

It looks like we won't be able to proceed, OneLight.

We have different bases for understanding.

I do not use such reasons as God loving us enough to include us in his plans, or personal relationship as the governor of God's plans, or God would not fail to consider his creation, etc. as the governor of understanding God in the Scriptures.

And you are not interested in researching the Scriptures regarding God, which are the only source and governor of my understanding of him.

So, I don't think we have any basis on which to proceed.

A civil discussion would have been nice.

Thanks anyway.

Ah, you are so wrong. All of scripture points to God and Who He is. Scripture itself tells the story. To exclude what has been shown about God through scripture is to deny all of scripture because the mind is already made up.

You can't turn this around by claiming I am not interested in researching scripture. I ask you for respect by providing me the scripture you want me to read. That is what I have asked for. If I want to bring scripture into a conversation, I bring it. I don't give a list of references and then tell you to go look it up. That would be disrespectful, especially when the list is extensive, which is more disrespectful. You want to discuss scripture, provide it. Then, if I believe there is more to the picture then what you give, it is up to me to research it out.

Honestly, I respect you enough to not become your "schoolteacher", sending you on endless searches. I will provide you what I am referring to. I only ask the same. Is this something you are unwilling to do?

[gdemoss]

I am truly amazed whenever I consider God and his ability to do that which he wants when he wants regardless of what his creation wants or does. One thing that I have been meditating on lately is that there is a difference between God setting a precedent through a commandment or God causing something by commanding it to happen.

God sets a precedent by giving commandments and leaves the free will choice up to the creature:

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

God commands things to happen and there is no choice for the object commanded:

Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou [art], and unto dust shalt thou return.

Nobody can resist the direct command of Gods voice:

Jhn 11:43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.

Even when his words are spoken by a believer:

Act 13:11 And now, behold, the hand of the Lord [is] upon thee, and thou shalt be blind, not seeing the sun for a season. And immediately there fell on him a mist and a darkness; and he went about seeking some to lead him by the hand.

And ultimately when it is all said and done, there will be many who must obey his voice one last time:

Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

God has the ability to choose whether he will grant repentance to one or not as Jesus declared that he knew Sodom would have repented had they had seen the right works but God chose to destroy them instead:

Mat 11:23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.

Exactly how much of an extent God controls the things that we do in this life cannot be determined but I personally believe that when the scripture says he works all things to the counsel of his own will, it means just that. I believe he is intimately involved with every aspect of my life, everyday. I have followed a bread crumb trail for the last 10 years that has brought me to where I am. Absolutely nothing happens in Gods world by mistake. He doesn't have to cause evil to happen to someone but merely remove his restraining hand and allow that which is evil to come upon them. Only to restrain that evil once again at his own whim. To think that God hasn't predetermined what will happen with his creation, what he will or will not allow at any given time is to weaken him. He is not merely some mastermind chess player, but rather the only one playing as all of his would be opponents cannot go against his direct commands. The difference must be seen in his ability to choose to set a standard and demand that his creation choose to follow it or suffer consequences versus his ability to directly command something to be done and it have to happen as he has said.

In the end the only thing that matters is what he will command to be.

Gary

[saved34]

The question is not is God sovereign, we all know he is the almighty and can do anything he pleases at anytime, that is not in question. The question is, what is Predestination. It is very clear that nowhere is scripture is predestination ever connected with unbelievers. Predestination is a specific blessing for those of us who believe. God has predetermined certain blessings upon us that will come about. He has clearly revealed this to us in his word, anything else is just a finite creature speculating and trying to be equal in knowledge with God almighty. Scripture is as clear as crystal glass, men will perish not because God predestined them to perish. Scripture says that Christ is not only our propitiation, but he is the propitiation for the whole world:

1Jn 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;

1Jn 2:2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

Christ has reconciled the World unto God, he has now committed to his saints the ministry of reconciliation. The sin that sends a person to hell is not, adultery, fornication, stealing, lying, and the like, these sins will be accounted for if the individual never comes to Christ. God is not holding the corrupt tree accountable for not bringing forth good fruit, it can only produce wickedness apart from God. He is holding mankind responsible for belief on His beloved Son. Unbelief is the sin that damns the individual to hell.

2Co 5:18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,

2Co 5:19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

2Co 5:20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

Joh 16:8 "And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;

Joh 16:9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me;

A man will go to hell inspite of God. There has never been a time where God has not given man some kind of light, some kind of warning. He has never just passed over a man and left him to his own doom. He warns, then he executes judgement. Scripture even speaks of false prophets who are doomed to the Lake of fire, it says the Blood of Christ even purchased them, but they denied it.

2Pe 2:1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.

It is difficult to deal with this subject without it crossing into a Calvinism debate.

[Floatingaxe]

The question is not is God sovereign, we all know he is the almighty and can do anything he pleases at anytime, that is not in question. The question is, what is Predestination. It is very clear that nowhere is scripture is predestination ever connected with unbelievers. Predestination is a specific blessing for those of us who believe. God has predetermined certain blessings upon us that will come about. He has clearly revealed this to us in his word, anything else is just a finite creature speculating and trying to be equal in knowledge with God almighty. Scripture is as clear as crystal glass, men will perish not because God predestined them to perish. Scripture says that Christ is not only our propitiation, but he is the propitiation for the whole world:

1Jn 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;

1Jn 2:2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

Christ has reconciled the World unto God, he has now committed to his saints the ministry of reconciliation. The sin that sends a person to hell is not, adultery, fornication, stealing, lying, and the like, these sins will be accounted for if the individual never comes to Christ. God is not holding the corrupt tree accountable for not bringing forth good fruit, it can only produce wickedness apart from God. He is holding mankind responsible for belief on His beloved Son. Unbelief is the sin that damns the individual to hell.

2Co 5:18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,

2Co 5:19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

2Co 5:20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

Joh 16:8 "And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;

Joh 16:9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me;

A man will go to hell inspite of God. There has never been a time where God has not given man some kind of light, some kind of warning. He has never just passed over a man and left him to his own doom. He warns, then he executes judgement. Scripture even speaks of false prophets who are doomed to the Lake of fire, it says the Blood of Christ even purchased them, but they denied it.

2Pe 2:1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.

It is difficult to deal with this subject without it crossing into a Calvinism debate.

[saved34]

I believe the Bible does not teach the "free will" of man. And here's why.

Free will is a philosophical notion (Aristotle, Cicero) asserted by Pelagius, a British monk around 400 A.D., on the assumption that the responsibility of man requires that man have a free will. Biblicalically, this is not so

Eleanor, I guess I can only speak for myself and from my understanding of freewill. Scripture is abundantly clear that man is a slave to sin, but sin was introduced to mankind through free-or self will. It started with Satan's "I WILL be like the Most High" and then it infected us through our former head, Adam. He fell because he made a clear choice to disobey God's revealed will, thus I guess it would be more biblical to say man is self willed. Not that God cannot override his will at anytime he see's fit, but that God has given man this ability, or parameter to do so. I think that most people say man has free will in the respects that he has a choice in receiving Life (which is only in Jesus) or rejecting life. Man can "harden his own heart to the truth".

Heb 3:15 while it is said, "TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE, DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS, AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME

Scripture speaks of men who will come to the very edge of saving faith, and yet they will turn back. They know that Christ is the only way, but they turn and seek other means of worship or salvation.(exemplified by the some jews turning back to the old ways of Judaism in the face of persecution)The scripture calls this "WILLFUL sin". Not confusing the fact that man's fallen nature is naturally attuned to evil, and alienated from God. The free will comes in once the Holy Spirit opens the understanding of an individual, and he either hardens his heart, or receives the truth.

Heb 10:26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

Heb 10:27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.

Heb 10:28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.

Heb 10:29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

[OneLight]

It looks like we won't be able to proceed, OneLight.

We have different bases for understanding.

I do not use such reasons as God loving us enough to include us in his plans, or personal relationship as the governor of God's plans, or God would not fail to consider his creation, etc. as the governor of understanding God in the Scriptures.

And you are not interested in researching the Scriptures regarding God, which are the only source and governor of my understanding of him.

So, I don't think we have any basis on which to proceed.

A civil discussion would have been nice.

Thanks anyway.

Ah, you are so wrong. All of scripture points to God and Who He is. Scripture itself tells the story. To exclude what has been shown about God through scripture is to deny all of scripture because the mind is already made up.

You can't turn this around by claiming I am not interested in researching scripture. I ask you for respect by providing me the scripture you want me to read. That is what I have asked for. If I want to bring scripture into a conversation, I bring it. I don't give a list of references and then tell you to go look it up. That would be disrespectful, especially when the list is extensive, which is more disrespectful. You want to discuss scripture, provide it. Then, if I believe there is more to the picture then what you give, it is up to me to research it out.

Honestly, I respect you enough to not become your "schoolteacher", sending you on endless searches. I will provide you what I am referring to. I only ask the same. Is this something you are unwilling to do.

I couldn't get you to address the meaning of the verse of Scripture which you yourself provided:

your purpose "determined before to be done."

You addressed it as referring to a prayer request, rather than referring to what was done by those who gathered against Jesus.

And you refused to pursue it further with me on its own terms, without first introducing another topic into the discussion.

So if we couldn't deal with so simple a statement of Scripture presented by you, I don't think we can deal with anything else.

I think our approaches to Scripture are much too different to reach any common ground regarding it.

I think our different approaches can result only in going in circles.

So thanks anyway.

Eleanor, it is not our task to get anyone to jump through our hoops, but to discuss scripture, which we should provide if we are to discuss it. This is respecting the people we are discussing scripture with. It takes just as much effort to cut and paste a series of scripture as it does scripture itself. If you typed in the references, then it would take less effort to cut and paste scripture then it does to type in the references. All I asked for is that scripture be provided instead of references. I am not retired, nor unemployed, and have little time to spend chasing down references. Please that that into consideration.

It also is not anyone's task to direct the way someone discusses any issue. I say this because you claim that you could not get me to do this or that, meaning that you seem to require control, and without such control, you can't continue. There seems to be a problem with communication here. Communication is a two way street, where each is treated with respect.

You also claim that I did not answer before I introduced another topic. I would highly disagree, since you yourself stated that we are discussing foreknowledge, which is exactly the questions I asked you, so the topic remained intact. Why is it that you feel I have to agree with you in order to continue a conversation?

It does not matter how one approaches scripture. What matters is the understanding we gain from what we read, so your last two statements about how we approach scripture makes no difference to the conversation. If that were the case, you would have nobody to talk with for everyone approaches scripture differently.

If you wish to not continue because I refuse to follow an outline you desire, then say so. Don't try to point your desire not to continue back on me. I am fine with discussing scripture with you if we can respect each other in the process.

[saved34]

"Predestination is corporate."

What does that mean?

Israel and the Church were predestined/elected to be the people of God. Those who freely receive His grace are added to the group individually. The individual is not arbitrarily decreed to be in the group from eternity past, no choice of their own. Calvinists proof text these corporate verses and try to apply them to individuals (decretal) to support TULIP. The biblical mindset was highly corporate, while modern North Americans are very individualistic.

Regarding your statement, "There is no theodicy without free will,"

are you ever going to address my question: Mankind is morally responsible for the sin of Adam (Ro 5:12-21). Where's the free will in that?

Not quite, mankind is a recipient of the sin of Adam, but his responsibility is to the Gospel and belief on the Son of God. Adam is the root of humanity, so the only possible outcome for humanity is to be just like it's source. The freewill comes in rejecting or believing the revealed truth of God.

Act 17:24 "The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands;

Act 17:25 nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things;

Act 17:26 and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation,

Act 17:27 that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;

Act 17:28 for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we also are His children.'

Act 17:29 "Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man.

Act 17:30 "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent,