Predestination

[OneLight]

I addressed this in the most recent post I replied in.

OneLight,

I gave it a shot, but the responses below cause me still to think our approaches to Scripture are much too different to reach common ground.

So I will be withdrawing from this discussion with you.

Thanks,

Eleanor

Can we try to condense our replies to a couple of the strongest facts and not run on and on and on trying to give more weight to our points?

And let me add, I take the Bible at its word. I do not disallow anything it plainly, clearly and specifically states.

No need to set up walls of disagreement before you start.

If that is going to be a wall of disagreement, then it's best we find it out now, before spilling a lota' ink based on different principles.

I couldn't get you to address the meaning of the verse of Scripture which you yourself provided:

your purpose "determined before to be done."

You addressed it as referring to a prayer request, rather than referring to what was done by those who gathered against Jesus.

I addressed this in the most recent post I replied in.

Your response was not in accordance with the grammatical construction of the verse nor the context of the verse.

It looks like we won't be able to proceed, OneLight.

We have different bases for understanding.

I do not use such reasons as God loving us enough to include us in his plans, or personal relationship as the governor of God's plans, or God would not fail to consider his creation, etc. as the governor of understanding God in the Scriptures.

And you are not interested in researching the Scriptures regarding God, which are the only source and governor of my understanding of him.

So, I don't think we have any basis on which to proceed.

It saddens me to see you withdraw from our conversations for reasons you do not explain well enough for me to garner an understanding. Can you be more specific so I may find correction if I am in error?

[Reformed-cross]

means just that. God, being Omnipresence, looked down through time and knew who would accept salvation through the free will He gave all, and knowing, He predestined them to conform to His Son before He even created the foundations of this earth. To me, it is that simple.

Would you care to discuss our differences of understanding foreknowledge?

Onelight: God didnt look into the future to find out who's going to believe. Why? Because its completely unnecessary.

1. God's chosing causes the person to chose....Joh 6:37 Whatever the Father gives to me will come to me;

This means that God is the one who creates the 'chosing' or better, causes the belief. So, to look into the future to find out if someone will believe...well they wont...Why?

Rom 3:10 as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one;

Rom 3:11 no one understands; no one seeks for God.

Rom 3:12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one."

2. God is not 'waiting perse' to see if someone will chose him. Election is not "Christians are elect because they "really really" elect themselves and then God elects them.

That is pure eisogesis and though its taught in many a church is as unbiblical as the mass.

3. The foreknowing of God is not a 'search for those who beleive'. God's foreknowing is the basis for the persons belief. Jesus is the author of faith, if thats true which it is, then its not necessary for God to 'search for belief' in the future. Unless God himself did what was necessary to bring about conversion, no one would be saved, they would all die in their sins.

4. The idea that God needs foreknowledge to call some one Elect is to say God is waiting for the sinners approval before God can then make his decisions.

Is that really the picture that the scripture presents of God? I say its not even close.

5. What the real rub is about is that those who believe in free-will+fairness+universal opportunity needed to concoct a line of reasoning that can be smuggled into 'foreknowledge'. What makes that text and others like it an easy pick is because it sound plausible to a newbie Christian asking hard questions of leaders they cannot answer.

So, what may be simple to you is not even biblical is just a stop-gap reasoning to inject free-will where its too scary to believe God has not 'foreknown' everyone.

A God that makes choices that has eternal ramifications is a God that some folks just cannot stomach. No matter how much they mouth their submission to him, they are telling another story when confronted with the truth that God has not chosen everyone. When thats on the table, all of a sudden a "chosing God" is unfair, a tyrant, mean, unloving and really to their carnal minds unworthy of love and devotion. Ive had many many a conversation with people that express these very things and I am amazed that they cannot see the box they must keep God in so that they can feel safe with God.

R.E.

[saved34]

Onelight: God didnt look into the future to find out who's going to believe. Why? Because its completely unnecessary.

Reformed, I can't really speak for Onelight, but I do not think that is exactly how that particular branch of belief works. It is not never said God looked into the future to find out anything, God knows all, period. I'm hoping that is thought Onelight is trying to convey.

1. God's chosing causes the person to chose....Joh 6:37 Whatever the Father gives to me will come to me;

This means that God is the one who creates the 'chosing' or better, causes the belief.

The passage you quoted in John 6:37 is decidedly a jewish passage. Meaning, our Lord had a specific people in mind when he said this. Please consider, this is the Christ before his death, this is the rejected Messiah of the jews speaking here. Scripture says God blinded the Jewish people for the express purpose that they would reject and Crucify Christ, and that the Gentiles can be brought in.

Rom 11:25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery--so that you will not be wise in your own estimation--that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;

Rom 11:7 What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;

Rom 11:8 just as it is written, "GOD GAVE THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR, EYES TO SEE NOT AND EARS TO HEAR NOT, DOWN TO THIS VERY DAY."

In other words, the blinding of Israel was a fulfillment of Bible prophecy. Scripture calls this a "partial hardening" because their were select Jews chosen of God, to have ears to hear, who would be heralds of this Gospel message to the world. This is not an edict for all time, because our Lord said, Once he is lifted up on the Cross, he will draw ALL MEN to himself. Before the cross, only a small strain of individuals could receive the message our Lord brought, these were select Jews (Apostles, and then a number of disciples) This is not talking about salvation for all time. The Holy Spirit is in the world today convicting it of sin. God is revealing his truth to all men, but many will turn away.

2. God is not 'waiting perse' to see if someone will chose him. Election is not "Christians are elect because they "really really" elect themselves and then God elects them.

That is pure eisogesis and though its taught in many a church is as unbiblical as the mass.

This is another completely unfair statement against those who hold differing views from your own. No Christian worth his salt will think that he 'elects himself". There is a beautiful harmony of God's wise selection of us in eternity past, and our own receiving of his Gospel. It is unexplainable, but we as finite creatures still try and fail miserably. God deals with us delicately. His power is beyond our comprehension, so at times he "puts the cookies on the bottom shelf" as the late Dr. Ironside used to say. If you could understand Election and Predestination completely, you would be equal to God in knowledge. You and I are not.

3. The foreknowing of God is not a 'search for those who beleive'. God's foreknowing is the basis for the persons belief. Jesus is the author of faith, if thats true which it is, then its not necessary for God to 'search for belief' in the future. Unless God himself did what was necessary to bring about conversion, no one would be saved, they would all die in their sins.

Again, making statements like this is akin to us lumping all Calvinist in with Hyper Calvinist. God does not have to search anything, God is God, and it is he who decreed that he loved the world, and it is he who says believe on the Lord and you shall be saved. It is all of God, and from God, and for God's glory.

4. The idea that God needs foreknowledge to call some one Elect is to say God is waiting for the sinners approval before God can then make his decisions.

Is that really the picture that the scripture presents of God? I say its not even close.

You are defining Foreknowledge by your own denominational viewpoint. Scripture clearly says we are Elect according to the Foreknowledge of God. That is clear scripture.

1Pe 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen

1Pe 1:2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

5. What the real rub is about is that those who believe in free-will+fairness+universal opportunity needed to concoct a line of reasoning that can be smuggled into 'foreknowledge'. What makes that text and others like it an easy pick is because it sound plausible to a newbie Christian asking hard questions of leaders they cannot answer.

No brother, the "real rub" is that there are many of us who do not agree with the Calvinist presentation of Election and limited atonement. It is not about fairness or universal opportunity, it is about God being consistent with what he has revealed to us in scripture. Nowhere ever, in the Bible is a man said to be Predetermined to hell. Whatever decisions God makes, we know they are the right decisions, because he is a righteous and just God. He could have easily said, "forget man, I'm gonna destroy them all and start off with something new." He didn't, he has revealed to us that he cares for us, that he desires fellowship with us, he loved us enough to take on our nature and come to this hell hole for the express purpose to redeem us. That is the God that I love, and serve.

A God that makes choices that has eternal ramifications is a God that some folks just cannot stomach. No matter how much they mouth their submission to him, they are telling another story when confronted with the truth that God has not chosen everyone. When thats on the table, all of a sudden a "chosing God" is unfair, a tyrant, mean, unloving and really to their carnal minds unworthy of love and devotion. Ive had many many a conversation with people that express these very things and I am amazed that they cannot see the box they must keep God in so that they can feel safe with God.

God is never unfair in any of his decisions, what is unfair, in the minds of many, is the misrepresentation of God by Calvinist in trying to be God, and reason in things that they really cannot comprehend. What you call folks not stomaching God, could be folks not stomaching a doctrine that they consider flawed and in error.

I think you have seen that I agree with you on a ton of things, Reformed, but in this I feel you are in great error. That does not mean we are not brothers, because we can both agree on the Lord Jesus Christ being our Life.

[childeye]

So God had Gideon destroy an army that covered the land like locusts with three hundred men.

God delivered Israel from the armies of Pharoah destroying Egypts armies without one Israelite lifting a sword.

God had little David send an army of Phillistines running with a sling.

But God does not intervene in the free wills of men?????

God moves men to comply with His will---willfully---and He moves mightily.

Yes the Midianites who willingly slew one another in the darkness is a great metaphor that does not allow sovereignty of men to be the lesson.

[Floatingaxe]

So God had Gideon destroy an army that covered the land like locusts with three hundred men.

God delivered Israel from the armies of Pharoah destroying Egypts armies without one Israelite lifting a sword.

God had little David send an army of Phillistines running with a sling.

But God does not intervene in the free wills of men?????

God moves men to comply with His will---willfully---and He moves mightily.

Yes the Midianites who willingly slew one another in the darkness is a great metaphor that does not allow sovereignty of men to be the lesson.

This makes no sense.

[childeye]

Gen 3:22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"--

I have always felt that this scripture shows men did not have the choice between good and evil until after eating of the tree. So a moral choice did not exist apart from this knowledge that God had rightfully said was forbidden.

God told Cain, "if you bring the right offering, I'll accept it. If you do not, sin lies at the door."

Gen 4:6 Then the LORD said to Cain, "Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen?

Gen 4:7 "If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it."

Some people see a choice here. Others see an ultimatum. Regardless this is not proof of free will since sin lieth at the door. This is reminiscent of Pauls warning that Satan waits like a crouching lion ready to devour. God says to Cain he must master this or be mastered by it. The only free will is found in mastering his angst not in choosing to follow sin. Mastering sin is not so simple as deciding to however. The prospect of being lifted up over his brother through competing offerings is not what God meant. For had Cain thought to say, I am happy for my brother that his offering was acceptable, there would be no Jealousy, no fallen countenance, and sin would not be lying at the door.

[childeye]

So God had Gideon destroy an army that covered the land like locusts with three hundred men.

God delivered Israel from the armies of Pharoah destroying Egypts armies without one Israelite lifting a sword.

God had little David send an army of Phillistines running with a sling.

But God does not intervene in the free wills of men?????

God moves men to comply with His will---willfully---and He moves mightily.

Yes the Midianites who willingly slew one another in the darkness is a great metaphor that does not allow sovereignty of men to be the lesson.

This makes no sense.

So why does it make no sense?

[Floatingaxe]

So God had Gideon destroy an army that covered the land like locusts with three hundred men.

God delivered Israel from the armies of Pharoah destroying Egypts armies without one Israelite lifting a sword.

God had little David send an army of Phillistines running with a sling.

But God does not intervene in the free wills of men?????

God moves men to comply with His will---willfully---and He moves mightily.

Yes the Midianites who willingly slew one another in the darkness is a great metaphor that does not allow sovereignty of men to be the lesson.

This makes no sense.

So why does it make no sense?

It just doesn't. God created men in His image---and part of that image is a sovereignty of will. You appear to be manipulating the word to fit in with your notion of what our God-given will is.

[childeye]

So God had Gideon destroy an army that covered the land like locusts with three hundred men.

God delivered Israel from the armies of Pharoah destroying Egypts armies without one Israelite lifting a sword.

God had little David send an army of Phillistines running with a sling.

But God does not intervene in the free wills of men?????

God moves men to comply with His will---willfully---and He moves mightily.

Yes the Midianites who willingly slew one another in the darkness is a great metaphor that does not allow sovereignty of men to be the lesson.

This makes no sense.

So why does it make no sense?

It just doesn't God created men in His image---and part of that image is a sovereignty of will. You appear to be manipulating the word to fit in with your notion of what our God-given will is.

The Image of God is not sovereignty of will. That would be a Satanic proposition wherein he says, I shall ascend my throne above the stars of heaven even unto the throne of God. Only in thinking his will is soveriegn would he entertain such a thought. The Image of God is about His immutable and perfect Character wherein Paul says in Romans 1:23, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man.

[Guest]

Confess

But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. Romans 10:8-11

Stand

But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. Galatians 1:6-9

Fast

For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. 2 Corinthians 5:21

~

.... A God that makes choices that has eternal ramifications is a God that some folks just cannot stomach. No matter how much they mouth their submission to him, they are telling another story when confronted with the truth that God has not chosen everyone. When thats on the table, all of a sudden a "choosing God" is unfair, a tyrant, mean, unloving and really to their carnal minds unworthy of love and devotion. Ive had many many a conversation with people that express these very things and I am amazed that they cannot see the box they must keep God in so that they can feel safe with God.....

Don't

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. James 1:13-15

Blame God

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9

He Loved The Ungodly

For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. Romans 5:6-9

And Still He Calls And Calls

I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. Revelation 22:16-17

Come Sinner

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

Come

~

Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27

Love, Your Brother Joe

~

Now also when I am old and grayheaded, O God, forsake me not; until I have shewed thy strength unto this generation, and thy power to every one that is to come. Psalms 71:18