To obey or not to obey?

[OneLight]

Gary, you have been studying for 4 years now, which is great. You may be at a turning point in your walk with Christ and may feel like this is what He is implying, but Jesus will never leave nor forsake you. There is a difference between having trouble letting go of something and turning your back on Him. I know this first hand myself. I accepted Jesus in the early 70's, but turned back to drugs for many years, 30+ to be truthful. During that time, He never once let me go too far from Him, always convicting me of my sins, calling me back to Him. During that time, I ODed more then once, but He had a different plan for my life and would not let me go. Little by little, His words grew to have solid meaning in me and I came back. You see, He never took away anything He taught me, never sent me to learn from devils, never abandoned me, leaving me to my sins. He very lovingly worked in my heart and drew me back. This is why I say that what you are hearing, if these are the words, could not come from Christ. Men may let you walk the path you choose, but Christ will never turn you away when He knows your true heart.

Perhaps you can show me where you find backing in the scriptures for what you said. Here is was I am referring to.

"then he would not only stop teaching me anything else, he would take away the understanding that I already had. I would be left to my own carnal understanding of a spiritual book and guided by devils rather than his Holy Spirit"

Can you break this down and back it with scripture?

Thanks for taking time to reply OneLight. I understand your testimony and share something a bit similar in my own history. The truth of my personal journey is that I never actually came to a knowledge of the truth and that is why I went back out into the world and lived as the world does. I was never really a follower of Jesus nor his ways. I had a golden calf I called Jesus but not one that can truly save. I never put on Christ and walked in him for a moment. I was deceived into believing a lie and my works bare witness of that.

You asked if I can back up my statement with scripture. I suggest we discuss then the ones that I originally brought up. You have not explained what the scriptures that i have brought to light teach in your estimation. We should begin with these. Why don't you give some basic exegesis on them that I may understand you better?

Mark 4

23If any man have ears to hear, let him hear. 24And he said unto them, Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given. 25For he that hath, to him shall be given: and he that hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he hath.

Let's start by looking at the whole passage.

Light Under a Basket

21 Also He said to them, “Is a lamp brought to be put under a basket or under a bed? Is it not to be set on a lampstand? 22 For there is nothing hidden which will not be revealed, nor has anything been kept secret but that it should come to light. 23 If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”

24 Then He said to them, “Take heed what you hear. With the same measure you use, it will be measured to you; and to you who hear, more will be given. 25 For whoever has, to him more will be given; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him.”

Since we are discussing your words that Jesus will remove your understanding, I will address this in that light.

"For whoever has, to him more will be given" ... you have Christ and His understanding, do you not? Because you do, more will be given onto you, not taken away from you.

"but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him." ... this speaks of those who just claim Christ and not live in a relationship with Him. They have not the Christ, so whatever they think they have, evidence if you may, will be taken away from them so they will see their nakedness.

James 1

22But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. 23For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: 24For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. 25But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

Again, lets look at the full passage.

Doers—Not Hearers Only

21 Therefore lay aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness, and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls.

22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. 23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man observing his natural face in a mirror; 24 for he observes himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was. 25 But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does.

26 If anyone among you thinks he is religious, and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this one’s religion is useless. 27 Pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their trouble, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world.

This goes along with James 2:14-26

Faith Without Works Is Dead

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

We must live our faith, not just speak our faith. If we just tell people that we have faith, and do nothing He wills for us to do, where is our faith in Him? If we do His will in our life, it is proof of our faith in Him.

If I have not address this well enough for you, please ask more specific questions.

In Him,

Alan

OneLight, it is weird reading what you have written here as it is not contrary to what I have said of the passages.

Gary

What you say about the passages is not what we were discussing. You made a claim that "he would not only stop teaching me anything else, he would take away the understanding that I already had. I would be left to my own carnal understanding of a spiritual book and guided by devils rather than his Holy Spirit". This is where I completely disagree.

Nothing like that is in any of these scriptures.

[gdemoss]

Nothing like that is in any of these scriptures.

OK, lets look at the first one again.

21 Also He said to them, “Is a lamp brought to be put under a basket or under a bed? Is it not to be set on a lampstand? 22 For there is nothing hidden which will not be revealed, nor has anything been kept secret but that it should come to light. 23 If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.” 24 Then He said to them, “Take heed what you hear. With the same measure you use, it will be measured to you; and to you who hear, more will be given. 25 For whoever has, to him more will be given; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him.”

Yes a lamp is bought to give light unto a room. It has a purpose. It sheds light upon that which is around it. Take heed how you hear. Evidence of hearing is found in the doing as one who hears and does becomes a light unto others and is therefore rewarded with more. But of great importance is the follow up statement about those who don't take heed to what they hear. Even that which he hs will be taken away from him. So one can start out well and take heed to what he hears such as King Saul did but then begin to not take heed to new things given unto him and end up even having that which he had taken away from him. In his case God even took the Holy Spirit away from him and gave to him an evil spirit to torment him from time to time. But you deny that this is even possible though it be in scripture as an example.

So yes it does say that if you do not take heed to what God is teaching you then he will take that from you what you already have and at least this one example provided was of significant consequence. Something tells me that you won't agree in the least though.

Gary

[OneLight]

Nothing like that is in any of these scriptures.

OK, lets look at the first one again.

21 Also He said to them, “Is a lamp brought to be put under a basket or under a bed? Is it not to be set on a lampstand? 22 For there is nothing hidden which will not be revealed, nor has anything been kept secret but that it should come to light. 23 If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.” 24 Then He said to them, “Take heed what you hear. With the same measure you use, it will be measured to you; and to you who hear, more will be given. 25 For whoever has, to him more will be given; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him.”

Yes a lamp is bought to give light unto a room. It has a purpose. It sheds light upon that which is around it. Take heed how you hear. Evidence of hearing is found in the doing as one who hears and does becomes a light unto others and is therefore rewarded with more. But of great importance is the follow up statement about those who don't take heed to what they hear. Even that which he hs will be taken away from him. So one can start out well and take heed to what he hears such as King Saul did but then begin to not take heed to new things given unto him and end up even having that which he had taken away from him. In his case God even took the Holy Spirit away from him and gave to him an evil spirit to torment him from time to time. But you deny that this is even possible though it be in scripture as an example.

So yes it does say that if you do not take heed to what God is teaching you then he will take that from you what you already have and at least this one example provided was of significant consequence. Something tells me that you won't agree in the least though.

Gary

I don't read it that way. I beleive you are reading something into this that is not there. Here is what I believe this passage is speaking of.

Is a lamp brought to be put under a basket or under a bed? Is it not to be set on a lampstand? For there is nothing hidden which will not be revealed, nor has anything been kept secret but that it should come to light.

• What is the light He speaks of? His Spirit in us and our faith in Him. We are to live our faith so others can see Christ in us. Those who are ashamed to show others their faith in their lives hide the lampstand. Jesus speaks of this shame:
  • For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, of him the Son of Man will be ashamed when He comes in His own glory, and in His Father’s, and of the holy angels.
  • He warns us that if we are ashamed to show we are true Christians, then there will be a price to pay. "Take Heed!" to what you hear in this message
    If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”
    • What happens to those who are ashamed of Christ? Jesus tells us "For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, of him the Son of Man will be ashamed when He comes in His own glory, and in His Father’s, and of the holy angels." This verse is telling us to beware of how we live our lives, telling us to hear Him.
      Then He said to them, “Take heed what you hear. With the same measure you use, it will be measured to you; and to you who hear, more will be given.
      • What are you hearing and what measure is He speaking of? To me, Jesus is speaking of our faith to in Him to live our His will in our life to others. He is encouraging us to allow Him to live through us, and the more we do this, the easier it will become.

    For whoever has, to him more will be given; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him.

    [*]This can be divided into two, the one who has and the one who has not.

    [*]Who has are those who have allow His Spirit to change them so Christ can freely live in and through them. These will continue to receive more of Him.[*]Those who have not are those who only know of Christ and His salvation, maybe said a prayer they really didn't take to heart, or go to church to show dace, but do not allow His Spirit to create in them a new person, to be like Christ. These cannot receive more of what they do not have. These would be those who claim to be a Christian but never live like a Christian. They have a false side of them, knowing the word but do not live the word. They will be exposed when their falseness is removed.

    I do not equate any of this to mean that He will turn away and leave you in any trying time of your life. If you still love Him, though you may be having a hard trial in your life, where temptation is biting at your heals, He will never leave nor forsake you, even if you are dis-obedient.

[grandma dolittle]

To open, I would like to say that I diligently work to obey every single thing that God has shown me in scripture. I have not attained unto full maturity as a follower of Christ as of yet but my hope is that this will be something that is realized in this life.

Mark 4

23If any man have ears to hear, let him hear. 24And he said unto them, Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given. 25For he that hath, to him shall be given: and he that hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he hath.

James 1

22But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. 23For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: 24For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. 25But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

I enjoy engaging with others about God. My hope is that either I, they or both will be edified from our encounter. Unfortunately more times than none this is not the case. I asked God to help me 'remove the beam from my eye' so that I could see why it was so hard to help others see their error when the scripture is clear on a particular subject. He took me to these passages among others and explained to me that if I did not obey that which he has taught me then he would not only stop teaching me anything else, he would take away the understanding that I already had. I would be left to my own carnal understanding of a spiritual book and guided by devils rather than his Holy Spirit.

Today I had a nice chat with a fellow believer about different doctrinal things and we came to an impasse at a particular point. I began to go through the normal channels of seeking out where the disconnect was in misinterpretation of scripture when the spirit within me suggested asking him about his obedience. So I did. He was honest and said that there were some things that he was not being obedient to. I shared with him these scriptures and asked if they concerned him at all. They did.

So I thought I would come here and ask my brothers and sisters the same question as God told me to ask myself before thinking I have everything figured out. The very real possibility that I could deceive myself through disobedience and end up not being able to receive truth that others share with me as truth because God will not allow it is a very scary prospect.

Heb5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

In Jesus Name,

Gary

Gary,

What a post! this sure made me feel humble as I wondered about the things in my life that may not be in obedience to God. I am sure that I have some... some that come to mind... I do need to spend some time in prayer and seeking help getting rid of myself, my independence, and my will and give God complete control.

[gdemoss]

Nothing like that is in any of these scriptures.

OK, lets look at the first one again.

21 Also He said to them, “Is a lamp brought to be put under a basket or under a bed? Is it not to be set on a lampstand? 22 For there is nothing hidden which will not be revealed, nor has anything been kept secret but that it should come to light. 23 If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.” 24 Then He said to them, “Take heed what you hear. With the same measure you use, it will be measured to you; and to you who hear, more will be given. 25 For whoever has, to him more will be given; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him.”

Yes a lamp is bought to give light unto a room. It has a purpose. It sheds light upon that which is around it. Take heed how you hear. Evidence of hearing is found in the doing as one who hears and does becomes a light unto others and is therefore rewarded with more. But of great importance is the follow up statement about those who don't take heed to what they hear. Even that which he hs will be taken away from him. So one can start out well and take heed to what he hears such as King Saul did but then begin to not take heed to new things given unto him and end up even having that which he had taken away from him. In his case God even took the Holy Spirit away from him and gave to him an evil spirit to torment him from time to time. But you deny that this is even possible though it be in scripture as an example.

So yes it does say that if you do not take heed to what God is teaching you then he will take that from you what you already have and at least this one example provided was of significant consequence. Something tells me that you won't agree in the least though.

Gary

I don't read it that way. I beleive you are reading something into this that is not there. Here is what I believe this passage is speaking of.

Is a lamp brought to be put under a basket or under a bed? Is it not to be set on a lampstand? For there is nothing hidden which will not be revealed, nor has anything been kept secret but that it should come to light.

• What is the light He speaks of? His Spirit in us and our faith in Him. We are to live our faith so others can see Christ in us. Those who are ashamed to show others their faith in their lives hide the lampstand. Jesus speaks of this shame:
  • For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, of him the Son of Man will be ashamed when He comes in His own glory, and in His Father’s, and of the holy angels.
  • He warns us that if we are ashamed to show we are true Christians, then there will be a price to pay. "Take Heed!" to what you hear in this message
    If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”
    • What happens to those who are ashamed of Christ? Jesus tells us "For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, of him the Son of Man will be ashamed when He comes in His own glory, and in His Father’s, and of the holy angels." This verse is telling us to beware of how we live our lives, telling us to hear Him.
      Then He said to them, “Take heed what you hear. With the same measure you use, it will be measured to you; and to you who hear, more will be given.
      • What are you hearing and what measure is He speaking of? To me, Jesus is speaking of our faith to in Him to live our His will in our life to others. He is encouraging us to allow Him to live through us, and the more we do this, the easier it will become.

    For whoever has, to him more will be given; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him.

    [*]This can be divided into two, the one who has and the one who has not.

    [*]Who has are those who have allow His Spirit to change them so Christ can freely live in and through them. These will continue to receive more of Him.[*]Those who have not are those who only know of Christ and His salvation, maybe said a prayer they really didn't take to heart, or go to church to show dace, but do not allow His Spirit to create in them a new person, to be like Christ. These cannot receive more of what they do not have. These would be those who claim to be a Christian but never live like a Christian. They have a false side of them, knowing the word but do not live the word. They will be exposed when their falseness is removed.

    I do not equate any of this to mean that He will turn away and leave you in any trying time of your life. If you still love Him, though you may be having a hard trial in your life, where temptation is biting at your heals, He will never leave nor forsake you, even if you are dis-obedient.

    Very problematic exegesis of the text, OneLight. You have taken the context of the verses and completely destroyed them by making them fit into your post resurrection thesis for the Christian. Jesus was talking to plain old ordinary people who did not have access to the holy spirit outside of listening to Christ when he spoke. None of what you say is applicable. Jesus isn't foreshadowing future events here, he is giving practical teaching to a people who were fully capable of both receiving and doing without the aid of the indwelling Holy Spirit. The message must be understood as those who were hearing it would have understood it.

    Gary

[gdemoss]

Gary,

What a post! this sure made me feel humble as I wondered about the things in my life that may not be in obedience to God. I am sure that I have some... some that come to mind... I do need to spend some time in prayer and seeking help getting rid of myself, my independence, and my will and give God complete control.

Grandma, sounds like you felt much as I did when I first came to an understanding of the message behind the text. I love him so much for showing me the necessity of sanctification in our lives.

Gary

[OneLight]

Nothing like that is in any of these scriptures.

OK, lets look at the first one again.

21 Also He said to them, “Is a lamp brought to be put under a basket or under a bed? Is it not to be set on a lampstand? 22 For there is nothing hidden which will not be revealed, nor has anything been kept secret but that it should come to light. 23 If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.” 24 Then He said to them, “Take heed what you hear. With the same measure you use, it will be measured to you; and to you who hear, more will be given. 25 For whoever has, to him more will be given; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him.”

Yes a lamp is bought to give light unto a room. It has a purpose. It sheds light upon that which is around it. Take heed how you hear. Evidence of hearing is found in the doing as one who hears and does becomes a light unto others and is therefore rewarded with more. But of great importance is the follow up statement about those who don't take heed to what they hear. Even that which he hs will be taken away from him. So one can start out well and take heed to what he hears such as King Saul did but then begin to not take heed to new things given unto him and end up even having that which he had taken away from him. In his case God even took the Holy Spirit away from him and gave to him an evil spirit to torment him from time to time. But you deny that this is even possible though it be in scripture as an example.

So yes it does say that if you do not take heed to what God is teaching you then he will take that from you what you already have and at least this one example provided was of significant consequence. Something tells me that you won't agree in the least though.

Gary

I don't read it that way. I beleive you are reading something into this that is not there. Here is what I believe this passage is speaking of.

Is a lamp brought to be put under a basket or under a bed? Is it not to be set on a lampstand? For there is nothing hidden which will not be revealed, nor has anything been kept secret but that it should come to light.

• What is the light He speaks of? His Spirit in us and our faith in Him. We are to live our faith so others can see Christ in us. Those who are ashamed to show others their faith in their lives hide the lampstand. Jesus speaks of this shame:
  • For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, of him the Son of Man will be ashamed when He comes in His own glory, and in His Father’s, and of the holy angels.
  • He warns us that if we are ashamed to show we are true Christians, then there will be a price to pay. "Take Heed!" to what you hear in this message
    If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”
    • What happens to those who are ashamed of Christ? Jesus tells us "For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, of him the Son of Man will be ashamed when He comes in His own glory, and in His Father’s, and of the holy angels." This verse is telling us to beware of how we live our lives, telling us to hear Him.
      Then He said to them, “Take heed what you hear. With the same measure you use, it will be measured to you; and to you who hear, more will be given.
      • What are you hearing and what measure is He speaking of? To me, Jesus is speaking of our faith to in Him to live our His will in our life to others. He is encouraging us to allow Him to live through us, and the more we do this, the easier it will become.

    For whoever has, to him more will be given; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him.

    [*]This can be divided into two, the one who has and the one who has not.

    [*]Who has are those who have allow His Spirit to change them so Christ can freely live in and through them. These will continue to receive more of Him.[*]Those who have not are those who only know of Christ and His salvation, maybe said a prayer they really didn't take to heart, or go to church to show dace, but do not allow His Spirit to create in them a new person, to be like Christ. These cannot receive more of what they do not have. These would be those who claim to be a Christian but never live like a Christian. They have a false side of them, knowing the word but do not live the word. They will be exposed when their falseness is removed.

    I do not equate any of this to mean that He will turn away and leave you in any trying time of your life. If you still love Him, though you may be having a hard trial in your life, where temptation is biting at your heals, He will never leave nor forsake you, even if you are dis-obedient.

    Very problematic exegesis of the text, OneLight. You have taken the context of the verses and completely destroyed them by making them fit into your post resurrection thesis for the Christian. Jesus was talking to plain old ordinary people who did not have access to the holy spirit outside of listening to Christ when he spoke. None of what you say is applicable. Jesus isn't foreshadowing future events here, he is giving practical teaching to a people who were fully capable of both receiving and doing without the aid of the indwelling Holy Spirit. The message must be understood as those who were hearing it would have understood it.

    Gary

    No so my friend. I am afraid that you do not give these people enough credit., The Jewish were brought up studying the scriptures, which they called the Torah for the Five books of Moses, or the Tanakh, which we call the Old Testament. One of the basic duties of Jewish parents is to teach their children, which did not end at a certain age, but continued into adulthood.

    Deuteronomy 6:6-9

    And these words which I command you today shall be in your heart. You shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, when you walk by the way, when you lie down, and when you rise up. You shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes. You shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates.

    They were not just ordinary everyday people as we know the term today. One first must understand the culture in order to understand how much they did know. Your claim "The message must be understood as those who were hearing it would have understood it." is true. Study the culture of the Jewish people to have a better understanding of how much more they knew.

    Today we have the bible and very few kids know anything about it. This was not so for the Jewish culture. The father taught the family all about God every chance he could every day. The problems that I see is you seem to be viewing their culture as you view the culture today. You can't do that.

    When Jesus first spoke this in Matthew 5, which is known as the Sermon on the Mount, He took what they knew and explained the lessons in a different light, giving them a different meaning. What Jesus taught was the scriptures they learned all their life. They were not unlearned people.

[gdemoss]

Nothing like that is in any of these scriptures.

OK, lets look at the first one again.

21 Also He said to them, “Is a lamp brought to be put under a basket or under a bed? Is it not to be set on a lampstand? 22 For there is nothing hidden which will not be revealed, nor has anything been kept secret but that it should come to light. 23 If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.” 24 Then He said to them, “Take heed what you hear. With the same measure you use, it will be measured to you; and to you who hear, more will be given. 25 For whoever has, to him more will be given; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him.”

Yes a lamp is bought to give light unto a room. It has a purpose. It sheds light upon that which is around it. Take heed how you hear. Evidence of hearing is found in the doing as one who hears and does becomes a light unto others and is therefore rewarded with more. But of great importance is the follow up statement about those who don't take heed to what they hear. Even that which he hs will be taken away from him. So one can start out well and take heed to what he hears such as King Saul did but then begin to not take heed to new things given unto him and end up even having that which he had taken away from him. In his case God even took the Holy Spirit away from him and gave to him an evil spirit to torment him from time to time. But you deny that this is even possible though it be in scripture as an example.

So yes it does say that if you do not take heed to what God is teaching you then he will take that from you what you already have and at least this one example provided was of significant consequence. Something tells me that you won't agree in the least though.

Gary

I don't read it that way. I beleive you are reading something into this that is not there. Here is what I believe this passage is speaking of.

Is a lamp brought to be put under a basket or under a bed? Is it not to be set on a lampstand? For there is nothing hidden which will not be revealed, nor has anything been kept secret but that it should come to light.

• What is the light He speaks of? His Spirit in us and our faith in Him. We are to live our faith so others can see Christ in us. Those who are ashamed to show others their faith in their lives hide the lampstand. Jesus speaks of this shame:
  • For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, of him the Son of Man will be ashamed when He comes in His own glory, and in His Father’s, and of the holy angels.
  • He warns us that if we are ashamed to show we are true Christians, then there will be a price to pay. "Take Heed!" to what you hear in this message
    If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”
    • What happens to those who are ashamed of Christ? Jesus tells us "For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, of him the Son of Man will be ashamed when He comes in His own glory, and in His Father’s, and of the holy angels." This verse is telling us to beware of how we live our lives, telling us to hear Him.
      Then He said to them, “Take heed what you hear. With the same measure you use, it will be measured to you; and to you who hear, more will be given.
      • What are you hearing and what measure is He speaking of? To me, Jesus is speaking of our faith to in Him to live our His will in our life to others. He is encouraging us to allow Him to live through us, and the more we do this, the easier it will become.

    For whoever has, to him more will be given; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him.

    [*]This can be divided into two, the one who has and the one who has not.

    [*]Who has are those who have allow His Spirit to change them so Christ can freely live in and through them. These will continue to receive more of Him.[*]Those who have not are those who only know of Christ and His salvation, maybe said a prayer they really didn't take to heart, or go to church to show dace, but do not allow His Spirit to create in them a new person, to be like Christ. These cannot receive more of what they do not have. These would be those who claim to be a Christian but never live like a Christian. They have a false side of them, knowing the word but do not live the word. They will be exposed when their falseness is removed.

    I do not equate any of this to mean that He will turn away and leave you in any trying time of your life. If you still love Him, though you may be having a hard trial in your life, where temptation is biting at your heals, He will never leave nor forsake you, even if you are dis-obedient.

    Very problematic exegesis of the text, OneLight. You have taken the context of the verses and completely destroyed them by making them fit into your post resurrection thesis for the Christian. Jesus was talking to plain old ordinary people who did not have access to the holy spirit outside of listening to Christ when he spoke. None of what you say is applicable. Jesus isn't foreshadowing future events here, he is giving practical teaching to a people who were fully capable of both receiving and doing without the aid of the indwelling Holy Spirit. The message must be understood as those who were hearing it would have understood it.

    Gary

    No so my friend. I am afraid that you do not give these people enough credit., The Jewish were brought up studying the scriptures, which they called the Torah for the Five books of Moses, or the Tanakh, which we call the Old Testament. One of the basic duties of Jewish parents is to teach their children, which did not end at a certain age, but continued into adulthood.

    Deuteronomy 6:6-9

    And these words which I command you today shall be in your heart. You shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, when you walk by the way, when you lie down, and when you rise up. You shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes. You shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates.

    They were not just ordinary everyday people as we know the term today. One first must understand the culture in order to understand how much they did know. Your claim "The message must be understood as those who were hearing it would have understood it." is true. Study the culture of the Jewish people to have a better understanding of how much more they knew.

    Today we have the bible and very few kids know anything about it. This was not so for the Jewish culture. The father taught the family all about God every chance he could every day. The problems that I see is you seem to be viewing their culture as you view the culture today. You can't do that.

    When Jesus first spoke this in Matthew 5, which is known as the Sermon on the Mount, He took what they knew and explained the lessons in a different light, giving them a different meaning. What Jesus taught was the scriptures they learned all their life. They were not unlearned people.

    Exactly. He was teaching Jewish people the truth about the law. He wasn't teaching them about Christ in them but how to truly live according to the spirit of the law. So what I said previously about your exegesis stands.

    Gary