To obey or not to obey?

[gdemoss]

To open, I would like to say that I diligently work to obey every single thing that God has shown me in scripture. I have not attained unto full maturity as a follower of Christ as of yet but my hope is that this will be something that is realized in this life.

Mark 4

23If any man have ears to hear, let him hear. 24And he said unto them, Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given. 25For he that hath, to him shall be given: and he that hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he hath.

James 1

22But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. 23For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: 24For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. 25But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

I enjoy engaging with others about God. My hope is that either I, they or both will be edified from our encounter. Unfortunately more times than none this is not the case. I asked God to help me 'remove the beam from my eye' so that I could see why it was so hard to help others see their error when the scripture is clear on a particular subject. He took me to these passages among others and explained to me that if I did not obey that which he has taught me then he would not only stop teaching me anything else, he would take away the understanding that I already had. I would be left to my own carnal understanding of a spiritual book and guided by devils rather than his Holy Spirit.

Today I had a nice chat with a fellow believer about different doctrinal things and we came to an impasse at a particular point. I began to go through the normal channels of seeking out where the disconnect was in misinterpretation of scripture when the spirit within me suggested asking him about his obedience. So I did. He was honest and said that there were some things that he was not being obedient to. I shared with him these scriptures and asked if they concerned him at all. They did.

So I thought I would come here and ask my brothers and sisters the same question as God told me to ask myself before thinking I have everything figured out. The very real possibility that I could deceive myself through disobedience and end up not being able to receive truth that others share with me as truth because God will not allow it is a very scary prospect.

Heb5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

In Jesus Name,

Gary

[OneLight]

Hi Gary - may I remind you that not everyone is at the same place of maturity and this needs to be taken into consideration. Some are still like babes in Christ, surviving on the milk of the word. These are still in the first stages of being changed to be more like Him, learning to trust God in their lives.

The message you stated "He took me to these passages among others and explained to me that if I did not obey that which he has taught me then he would not only stop teaching me anything else, he would take away the understanding that I already had. I would be left to my own carnal understanding of a spiritual book and guided by devils rather than his Holy Spirit." does not follow scripture.

When we read about His love for us, we read that "Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails." We also read "Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said, “I will never leave you nor forsake you.”"

To claim that God said He would abandon you could not of come from God.

[gdemoss]

Hi Gary - may I remind you that not everyone is at the same place of maturity and this needs to be taken into consideration. Some are still like babes in Christ, surviving on the milk of the word. These are still in the first stages of being changed to be more like Him, learning to trust God in their lives.

The message you stated "He took me to these passages among others and explained to me that if I did not obey that which he has taught me then he would not only stop teaching me anything else, he would take away the understanding that I already had. I would be left to my own carnal understanding of a spiritual book and guided by devils rather than his Holy Spirit." does not follow scripture.

When we read about His love for us, we read that "Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails." We also read "Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said, “I will never leave you nor forsake you.”"

To claim that God said He would abandon you could not of come from God.

Interesting reply Onelight. If what I have said has come from God then are you blaspheming the Holy Spirit?

Gary

[OneLight]

Hi Gary - may I remind you that not everyone is at the same place of maturity and this needs to be taken into consideration. Some are still like babes in Christ, surviving on the milk of the word. These are still in the first stages of being changed to be more like Him, learning to trust God in their lives.

The message you stated "He took me to these passages among others and explained to me that if I did not obey that which he has taught me then he would not only stop teaching me anything else, he would take away the understanding that I already had. I would be left to my own carnal understanding of a spiritual book and guided by devils rather than his Holy Spirit." does not follow scripture.

When we read about His love for us, we read that "Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails." We also read "Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said, “I will never leave you nor forsake you.”"

To claim that God said He would abandon you could not of come from God.

Interesting reply Onelight. If what I have said has come from God then are you blaspheming the Holy Spirit?

Gary

Like the Berean, I took what you said and placed it against scripture, and it did not hold up to His word. God does not go against His own words. Yet, Satan does work fear into people, even by quoting scripture to them or pointing to God while doing so. What I say is not to be taken as we can just disobey God, but that God, who sent His Son to die for us, would never turn His back on us. Can you see the difference?

[oldzimm]

Interesting question, since we all fall short of deserving God's glory, our best day is nothing but a filthy rag in God's eyes. I'm going to have to say that we are all disobedient to God's word. So the question would be, is it willful disobedient or just disobedient?

It is my opinion that when we (Christians) lose focus on the straight an narrow road and fall into the ditch. Through the grace of God, we can get out of the ditch, get back on the road and continue on in the race. So as Christians, I'm going to vote that it is not willful disobedient.

[saved34]

Hi Gary - may I remind you that not everyone is at the same place of maturity and this needs to be taken into consideration. Some are still like babes in Christ, surviving on the milk of the word. These are still in the first stages of being changed to be more like Him, learning to trust God in their lives.

The message you stated "He took me to these passages among others and explained to me that if I did not obey that which he has taught me then he would not only stop teaching me anything else, he would take away the understanding that I already had. I would be left to my own carnal understanding of a spiritual book and guided by devils rather than his Holy Spirit." does not follow scripture.

When we read about His love for us, we read that "Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails." We also read "Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said, “I will never leave you nor forsake you.”"

To claim that God said He would abandon you could not of come from God.

Interesting reply Onelight. If what I have said has come from God then are you blaspheming the Holy Spirit?

Gary

No he is not blaspheming, Gary. What Onelight says is 100% scriptural. You seem to view God as some type of taskmaster, rather than your Father who has charged himself with your complete and total care. Everything in his thoughts towards you is for your best interest. He gave Christ for you which is the ultimate demonstration that he will give you all things that benefit you, freely. Even when he disciplines you it is because he loves you. He is on your side, not against you.

Rom 8:31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us?

Rom 8:32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things?

[gdemoss]

Hi Gary - may I remind you that not everyone is at the same place of maturity and this needs to be taken into consideration. Some are still like babes in Christ, surviving on the milk of the word. These are still in the first stages of being changed to be more like Him, learning to trust God in their lives.

The message you stated "He took me to these passages among others and explained to me that if I did not obey that which he has taught me then he would not only stop teaching me anything else, he would take away the understanding that I already had. I would be left to my own carnal understanding of a spiritual book and guided by devils rather than his Holy Spirit." does not follow scripture.

When we read about His love for us, we read that "Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails." We also read "Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said, “I will never leave you nor forsake you.”"

To claim that God said He would abandon you could not of come from God.

Interesting reply Onelight. If what I have said has come from God then are you blaspheming the Holy Spirit?

Gary

Like the Berean, I took what you said and placed it against scripture, and it did not hold up to His word. God does not go against His own words. Yet, Satan does work fear into people, even by quoting scripture to them or pointing to God while doing so. What I say is not to be taken as we can just disobey God, but that God, who sent His Son to die for us, would never turn His back on us. Can you see the difference?

OneLight, I understand what you are trying to say. You took what I said and misplaced it upon scripture and it didn't hold up to what you think those scriptures intend to say or have read more into what I have said than I did. The book of Hebrews is all about what I am speaking of yet you cannot see it. I would like to thank you though for offering the scriptures you did as it has provoked me to look back in the old testament at what is being quoted by the writer of Hebrews concerning the Lord not leaving nor forsaking those who are truly his. You may not believe that obedience has anything to do with salvation. I believe that this has been a reoccurring theme in some of your posts I have read. When I read the scriptures though, I see it as a reoccurring theme from cover to cover. Faith equals obedience. Not to confuse the issue with thinking that faith equals sinless perfection as that is not what I am saying (yet I do not completely count out the possibility that a man can live completely without sin for the rest of his life, I just don't know as of yet). This deals more with willful disobedience which equates to thumbing your nose up at God and saying I know that it is wrong but I am going to go ahead and do it anyway and is seen by God as treading Jesus underfoot and counting the blood of the covenant an unholy thing. But I cannot express enough for the sake of those who are either new to Christianity or those who have trod the path without very good direction and have found themselves to be ignorantly in sin or failing due to spiritual weakness due to immaturity in Christ, that we can still sin and it is quite expected to happen regularly for a new convert who is without understanding.

If you think that you can be willfully disobedient to God and that he will not do as he has said he will do then we disagree on this point. If you think that I am saying that one who has trouble figuring out how to have victory over the sin he hates that seems to keep happening will be forsaken by God, then you misunderstand me. For the one whose heart is set upon God there is always hope.

I would be interested in hearing your exegesis on the scriptures that I provided originally with an explanation on how you understand them in light of salvation.

Gary

[gdemoss]

Interesting question, since we all fall short of deserving God's glory, our best day is nothing but a filthy rag in God's eyes. I'm going to have to say that we are all disobedient to God's word. So the question would be, is it willful disobedient or just disobedient?

Amen. We know that without knowledge of Gods righteousness in Christ a mans own righteousness from his own intellect is filthy rags in Gods eyes. But the righteousness of God has been revealed being manifest in the flesh for us in the person of Christ and we are told that he that does that which is righteous just as he is righteous and are commanded to 'put on' Christ. Willful disobedience would be intentionally not putting on Christ. Trying to follow the dictates of scripture and put on Christ but having one of our ugly appendages of our old man fall out in the form of sin therefore falling short, yet again, of the glory of God is not what I polled about.

It is my opinion that when we (Christians) lose focus on the straight an narrow road and fall into the ditch. Through the grace of God, we can get out of the ditch, get back on the road and continue on in the race. So as Christians, I'm going to vote that it is not willful disobedient.

Agreed. Even Peter, who had some time of walking in the spirit under his belt dropped the ball in Antioch and caved to the fear of the Jews who had come up from Jerusalem. God made sure Paul was there to help Peter get out of the ditch, dust himself off and get back in the race. I truly believe that this event in his life helped him to write those beautiful words explaining to us what we must add to our faith if we are to keep from falling. He is also the one who said "He who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin", which gives me hope that I can actually do such a thing, though I am not fond of the suffering part.

Thanks for your reply to my post, I found it very useful.

Gary

[coheir]

2nd Corin 10: 5

Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

one of our tasks

Rom 14

22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.

23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

I believe if a person honestly trys every day to obey the new testament God (Jesus ) will not let that soul be lost.

[gdemoss]

Hi Gary - may I remind you that not everyone is at the same place of maturity and this needs to be taken into consideration. Some are still like babes in Christ, surviving on the milk of the word. These are still in the first stages of being changed to be more like Him, learning to trust God in their lives.

The message you stated "He took me to these passages among others and explained to me that if I did not obey that which he has taught me then he would not only stop teaching me anything else, he would take away the understanding that I already had. I would be left to my own carnal understanding of a spiritual book and guided by devils rather than his Holy Spirit." does not follow scripture.

When we read about His love for us, we read that "Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails." We also read "Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said, “I will never leave you nor forsake you.”"

To claim that God said He would abandon you could not of come from God.

Interesting reply Onelight. If what I have said has come from God then are you blaspheming the Holy Spirit?

Gary

No he is not blaspheming, Gary. What Onelight says is 100% scriptural. You seem to view God as some type of taskmaster, rather than your Father who has charged himself with your complete and total care. Everything in his thoughts towards you is for your best interest. He gave Christ for you which is the ultimate demonstration that he will give you all things that benefit you, freely. Even when he disciplines you it is because he loves you. He is on your side, not against you.

Rom 8:31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us?

Rom 8:32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things?

Saved, you misunderstand me at best. I do not see God as a taskmaster at all. I see him as a Holy God who is my Father that loves me enough to be honest and straight forward with me about how he must deal with me because of who and what he is. If I place my hand upon a candle the flame cannot choose not to burn me. If I choose to disregard what my Father has said and continue on my path of destruction banking that he will be merciful and gracious anyway, I will be sadly mistaken in the day of judgment.

Rom 8:31 is a text that is built upon the first 7 chapters of Romans. If you can get through the first 7 chapters and find that all of what they say applies to you as a believer then you can claim victory as one who 8:31 applies too, but there is a lot of text to get through before we can even think about applying these gems to our own selves.

Gary