My churches beliefs

[Guest Serendipity]

Hi,

I'm Presbyterian and I'm starting to doubt some of their teachings like baby baptism for one. But also some of their doctrines. Anyone know anything about what we teach and see things in different ways ? I was talking to a friend and she said that my churches beliefs on eternal security were false. I've always believed it because that's when we are taught, but what she said made a lot of sense. I don't know what to believe here now. Anyway have any thoughts on this ?

Melody

[AFaceInTheCrowd]

Search for the truth in GOD's Word.I know many of us belong to different denominations but we all have a purpose in the body of CHRIST.I'm not sure what the Presbyterian doctrine is(or how it differs from the Baptist doctrine).Please share with us some of the beliefs so we can get a better understanding.

[larryt]

Hi Melody,

Presbiterians are basically the church that Calvin started in geneva. The doctrine is what is called calvinism. There are several threads here on this topic and I would recomend reading them to find out what the people here think of this doctrine. some people feel threatened by the once saved always saved doctrine but there are many here who believe that. Personally, I am OSAS but I do understand the concern from the loss of salvation side.

God Bless you,

LT

[Budman]

Hi Melody,

Infant baptism is not Biblical.

When a person receives the Lord Jesus as his Savior, he dies to the domination of sin, and this is the truth signified in baptism. By going down into the waters of baptism, we who have placed our trust in Christ testify that through our union with Him we have been buried with Him in His death. Having died to sin, we are no longer under its condemnation or bondage. Then, our emergence from the waters of baptism signifies that through our union with the living Lord we have been raised from death with Him. It is symbolic.

A baby cannot understand these things. Also, baptism does not save you. Accepting Christs sacrifice for our sins is what saves.

I believe eternal security is Biblical.

According to the New Testament, there is only one basis upon which anyone can qualify for eternal refuge from the judgment of God's law. That one hope is summed up in two very simple words: in Christ. When I believe and trust in Christ, God sees me as being "in Him." My life is then "hidden with Christ in God" (Col 3:3). I have a protection that begins and ends with God. Of this wonderful plan the apostle Paul wrote:

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace (Eph. 1:3-7).

In light of this passage, could I be "in Christ" today but lose that protection at some point in the future? Could my faith or lack of faith determine whether I am presently "in" or "out" of Christ?

What if I told you that I knew my future was secure because I have already paid for all of my sins by being executed on a Roman cross? What if I told you I was buried and then raised from the dead to enjoy immunity from the eternal punishment of God? According to Romans 6, I have been:

* co-crucified in Christ (v.3).

* co-buried in Christ (v.4).

* co-resurrected in Christ (vv.4-5).

* freed from sin in Christ (vv.6-7).

This is the Christian's basis for security. In Christ, I have already paid for my crimes against God. That's history. It's past. It's done. Paul said it so clearly. In Christ, I died to sin. In Christ, I am alive forever. My past in Him frees me from the terrible, eternal death penalty of sin!

But how do we know we're not just reading into Paul's words the kind of safety and security we want to believe in? We know because in Romans 6 Paul dealt with an objection that wouldn't make sense if he hadn't been teaching something that some would interpret as a license to sin:

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? . . . Therefore we were buried with Him . . . that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life (Rom. 6:1-2,4).

Knowing this objection would be slow to die, Paul went on to write:

What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin to death, or of obedience to righteousness? But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness (Rom. 6:15-18).

It is only when we realize that our salvation depends on our confidence in what Christ has done rather than on what we will do, that we truly have reason to live a life of grateful praise.

This is the current dimension of a security that doesn't depend on what we do, but on what Christ has done for us. It reminds us that our Savior has not only paid the price for our salvation, but He has also promised to intercede for us in the present on the basis of what He did for us in the past. That's important because no matter how much we despise the idea of looking at security as a license to sin, we don't live up to our new potential and privilege in Christ.

When we are so overcome by our guilt that we seriously wonder if we have lost our position in Christ, then we need to take comfort in the fact that in Christ we have the ultimate Advocate and Intercessor. We need to read over and over the reassuring words of the apostle John, who wrote:

My little children, these things I write to you, that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world (1 Jn. 2:1-2).

This deals with Christ's protection of our salvation in the present. It says that when we find ourselves slugging it out with the consequences and emotions of our foolishness, then we need to realize that being in Christ we have the ultimate defense.

You may not even know that you have a Lawyer. But you do if you are in Christ. He's been retained by God for the very purpose of handling your daily sins. Trust Him. There is no better. He's never lost a case--and He never will.

Some have speculated that this Public Defender has never actually had to argue a case. They believe He merely holds up His hands whenever an accuser mentions the names of anyone He's agreed to defend. There's something about those hands that always wins.

How could you possibly lose your salvation when you are in Jesus Christ. He Himself is your:

* Advocate.

* Intercessor.

* Payment for sin.

* Righteousness before God and man.

We can agree with Paul, who wrote, "If God is for us, who can be against us?" (Rom. 8:31).

God has already announced that He has given authority to His Son to judge the earth (Jn. 5:24-30). It is at the judgment seat of Christ where we who are in Christ must one day appear (Rom. 14:1-12; 2 Cor. 5:10). And it is that same announced Judge who has already assured all who are in Him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life" (Jn. 5:24).

If you have trusted in the Lord Jesus Christ as your personal Savior, count on those words. They are God's promise to you. You don't ever have to worry about losing your salvation, because in Him you have:

* A Savior who died for all your sins.

* The best defense possible.

* A Judge who loves you.

* A preannounced verdict.

In that light, then, can you see that those who are in Christ really do have a security based not on their own record but on His? They are accepted not on the merits of their own name but on His. Can you see how those who are in Him have a permanent file that has been purged? They have an Attorney who has never lost a case, a Judge who loves them, and a preannounced verdict on all charges that might put their eternal salvation in jeopardy--all because they are in Christ!

warm regards

-bud

[Nicks Girl]

I would definitly suggest reading your Bible, and beliving that, over ANYTHING anyone else tries to teach you.

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Serendipity,

I agree that baby baptism is NOT Biblical, although the "dedication of infants" might be considered, because it mainly involves the pledge of the parents to raise up a child in the way he/she should go.

I am not OSAS, but the best way for you to decide is to study the scriptures as has already been said. Only the Holy Spirit will tell you the TRUTH of the matter through God's Word, and He will implant it in your heart.

There needs be more emphasis on what the Holy Spirit does and how He does it. If this is not taught in your church, you should consider finding one God wants you in.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[larryt]

I would definitly suggest reading your Bible, and beliving that, over ANYTHING anyone else tries to teach you.

Most important advise anyone can get.

Ro 14:5  One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day [alike]. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

LT

[lifesharer]

Hello< i want to state that all denominationalism and sectarianism is sin and a division of the body; to its weakening. Much of the traditions and rituals of your denomination are just that : empty acts of form and ritual trying to replace a living personal relationship with God through regeneration and the indwelling Holy Spirit with "pomp and circumstances" as it were.

Infant baptism is a act which negates all the principles of scriptures and shows a lack of any understanding of what baptism is about. It is NOT just a symbolic gesture, nor does it confer "osas" on a infant. If you read the doctrinal question here in the forums, on regeneration, you will see that this (water baptism) is the place and time God Chose to LITERALY regenerate the human spirit, (ro. 2: 28-29 +col. 2: 11-14 + John 3:6 and Ezekiel 11: 19) this is a fullfillment of the ancient type and shadow of Israel passing through the red sea and is the foundation of spiritual maturity, abilities , and participation in the KINGDOM of God (john 3:5) when followed by soulical sanctification (walking in the leading of the Spirit as was taught Israel in the wilderness). It is for a fully cogzinant mature person able to decide fir themselves to be baptised. The early church often made the new ly saved convert wait up to three years to learn and be eductaed inwhat water baptism ( regeneration) was about and to see if they would fully commit to its lifestyle. An Infant does NOT have a " saving faith" in Christ and God will NOT regenerate such. Salvation is NOT dependant on our being regenerated however. Rather regeneration is a "fruit" of having salvation.

Infant baptism was first practiced by certian german sects who thought that this protected them from being kidnapped and used by "satanists" in thier rituals. Which was considered rampant in that day. It was NEVER practiced by the early church. This is not to be confused with dedication as this is as the other poster said: a vow of the parents to raise thier child up in the Lord.

I do believe that God gave "Teachers" ( ephesians 4: 11) to teach us and i recommend you seek them if your not sure, remebering that : "out of the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established . applying this principle: we read what other ( teachers ) share and then compare diligently with the word of God.

I believe that if you read all of Watchman Nees works diligently ( for one) you would find out enough truth to discern the error of infant baptism your self.

IT is clear that NO one can snatch us from Gods hand, but unlike calvanistic doctrines I believe that God never removes our free will. In that Light i say that we always have the freedom to reject God at any time if we so choose to do so. In this light Hebrews 6:4 -8 is clear. nothing less than a final free-will choice on your part to crucify Christ anew (reject Him totaly) is required for your loss of salvation. As long as you run the race and look to Christ with faith, then only is your salvation sure. Heb. 6: 8-? God will not be fooled by those with a insincere faith as well as those who were martyered into a recant. He knows the fullness of truth and nothing is hid from his sight.

We can trust FULLY in his ability to save to the uttermost those who put thier faith in Him. BUT NOT EVER AGAINST OUR WILLS.

I have studied the course of governments , countries and denominations. In all cases it is satans plan and purpose to corrupt and distroy them. The presbyterian is no different in this. It has lead the way in advocacy of homosexuality and that in the ministry. it has shown clear carnality in its totality of practices and doctrines as is standard for all ritualized and traditionalized denominations. It's inate in men who seek to avoid a strong presence of God because of our fleshly nature lest we be made to crucify our flesh in truth. Plus men love the "upper seat".

I encourage you to seek other meetings of christians and get a broader senseof the full manifestation of Gods Spirit and Giofts before you settle down with any particular denom and its particular quirks of doctrine. There are , of course< some cults that portray themselves as christian churches but by simply reading Walter martins book : the KINGDOM of the Cults and learning what are the axiomatic doctrines of a true christian faith, you should be well protected from these psuedo christian cults.

IN reality the " Church" is the PEOPLE alone and NOT the meeting or building. Scripturaly it is the body of believers alone , all true believers every where and every when! Finding fellowship with other true believers is important! partaking in the body ministry is of great help in attaining spiritualy maturity. BUT never are we to turn the responsibility for our personal walk or salvation over to the "leaders"! The two basic evidences for a cult is a works doctrines to get or maintain salvation and/ or a denial of the diety of Christ (scripturaly speaking). To day we see several means to controll new converts like: "they are all lost and in satans power " , OR: just trust us and we will get you into heaven. They attempt to seperate you from your friends and even family, or they prey on fear in you of losing salvation without thier help.

Assembly of God and baptist churches are generaly doctrinaly sound as are many local community churches. BUt it always varies on how Christ minded the pastor or leaders are. Pray always that God leads you to a spirit filled and Spirit led local body to fellowship with. Yet even they are slipping into rituals and deadworks to some degree.

Our faith is a progressive revelation of the deeper things of God by His Spirit. ( 1 Cor. 2: 9-16) If you are not seeking spirituality and the cross that gets you there you will be left behind to walk in the old man nature of flesh and soul with No spiritual life.

I am glad that you have been moved from your previous complacency to seek a better understanding of Gods will and truth, as it shows that you are sensitive to Gods leading.

Sincerely , Lifesharer

[stevehut]

Presbiterians are basically the church that Calvin started in geneva.

[Fr Chuck]

Satan does often make alot of sense, and even against Chrsit, Satan used the scripture to try to decieve Christ.

Infant baptism has been used since the time of Christ. It was the practice of the early church. ( Immersion though, even for infants)

Actually even in the early church, any priest who did a baptism that was not immersion would have been excommunicated.

When the Church divided in @ 1100, The church of the West ( which became the Catholic church) and the Church of the East ( which became the Orthodox Church)

We see that the Orthodox, still carry the tradition of the early church, infants are baptised as there were by the eary church, still in immersion.

Please understand, too many of todays churches, do not wish to look back at the early church and how it did things, because they still hate Catholics that much, they will do things not right, just not to be like Catholics.

But the Catholic church was not the only first church, all of the churches of the east were also there from the very beginning, and they have not had all the customs of man change the teachings.