All Israel / The Israel of God / Spirit Israel / Spirit Jew = all beli

[Guest]

The problem here is that you ared ignoring actual promises themselves and character of those promises.  

 

For example;  God makes promises based on an eternal covenant (Gen. 17:8-9) with Abraham.  Eternal means perpetual and unending.   God's land promises to Abraham and His physcial descendents is rooted in an eternal covenant.   That means that it cannot taken from them and transferred to someone else without God breaking His promise to Abraham.

 

 

Paul teaches that there are two covenants. The two women are an allegory for them.

The covenant that promises the land in Genesis 15, is not the eternal covenant IMO.

The covenant in Genesis 15, speaks concerning the fourth Generation. It gives the land to his seed, which is the 4th genration. This is a covenant which is to begin to be in effect 400 years in the future.

13  And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;

14  And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.

16  But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.

 

Gen 15:18  In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:

 

Abraham is told he will die in this covenant.

15  And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.

 

This is IMO what is spoken about here.....

 

Act 7:2  And he said, Men, brethren, and fathers, hearken; The God of glory appeared unto our father Abraham, when he was in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Charran,

3  And said unto him, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and come into the land which I shall shew thee.

4  Then came he out of the land of the Chaldaeans, and dwelt in Charran: and from thence, when his father was dead, he removed him into this land, wherein ye now dwell.

5  And he gave him none inheritance in it, no, not so much as to set his foot on: yet he promised that he would give it to him for a possession, and to his seed after him, when as yet he had no child.

6  And God spake on this wise, That his seed should sojourn in a strange land; and that they should bring them into bondage, and entreat them evil four hundred years.

7  And the nation to whom they shall be in bondage will I judge, said God: and after that shall they come forth, and serve me in this place.

The covenant promise to Abraham, Issac, and Jacob and the generation which died in Egypt, is the covenant made in circumcision. It is esablished in Isaac ( the first generation of his seed) Therefore, This covenant was established 3 generations before, the covenant made in the blood of animals.

 

The everlasting covenant established in Isaac, was a covenant based solely on faith IMO. For Hebrews tells us this.....

 

Heb 11:8  By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

9  By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

10  For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

11  Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.

12  Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.

13  These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

 

Again Hebrews is saying the very same as acts says...

Acts 7:4  Then came he out of the land of the Chaldaeans, and dwelt in Charran: and from thence, when his father was dead, he removed him into this land, wherein ye now dwell.

5  And he gave him none inheritance in it, no, not so much as to set his foot on: yet he promised that he would give it to him for a possession, and to his seed after him, when as yet he had no child.

 

God told Abraham in Genesis 15, he would die. Abraham was given no inheritance. His inheritance as well as Isaac, and Jacob and the generation which went down ointo Egypt would have faith in the resurrection for their inheritance. It concerned the next world, the next life.

 

Continuing with Hebrews we see this IMO.

13  These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. {in faith: Gr. according to faith}

14  For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.

15  And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.

16  But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

17  By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

18  Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:

19  Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

20  By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.

21  By faith Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff.

22  By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones.

 

As for the allegory, I believe if you read the difference between the sons of the women you will find

A covenant for kings.......

Gen 17:13  He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

14  And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

15  And God said unto Abraham, As for Sarai thy wife, thou shalt not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall her name

16  And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her. {she … : Heb. she shall become nations}

 

1Pe 2:9  But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

 

A covenant for princes..... 

17  Then Abraham fell upon his face, and laughed, and said in his heart, Shall a child be born unto him that is an hundred years old? and shall Sarah, that is ninety years old, bear?

18  And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee!

19  And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.

20  And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.

21  But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.

 

 

 

 

Wow, so sorry all. I am having one heck of a time with the way to post quotes in this forum. How can I fix this. sorry Shiloh.

Edited September 13, 2013 by Joline

[JohnD]

I'd suggest cut and paste what you want to quote and use the {quote} {/quote} withe the correct  [brackets] and assign the quote to "So-n-So said:"

[JohnD]

I used a poor choice of words earlier. God is not replacing anyone. He is trying to wean humanity from the fleshly to the spiritual. There is indeed a difference with that regard between the fleshly Jew and the spiritual Jew.

 

Romans 2:28-29 (KJV)
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

 

Romans 9:6 (KJV)
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

 

But he (God) is not replacing anyone.

[Qnts2]

I used a poor choice of words earlier. God is not replacing anyone. He is trying to wean humanity from the fleshly to the spiritual. There is indeed a difference with that regard between the fleshly Jew and the spiritual Jew.

 

Romans 2:28-29 (KJV)

28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

 

Romans 9:6 (KJV)

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

 

But he (God) is not replacing anyone.

 

A Spiritual Jew is a person who is Jewish, and has accepted Jesus. But scripture never ever uses the term Spiritual Jew.

 

Romans 2:28-29 is using a word play. The word for Jew in Hebrew means 'praiser of God'. So is we substitute the definition rather then transliterate, the meaning of Romans become much more clear.

 

Romans 2:28 For he is not a Praiser of God (Jew), which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29 But he is a Praiser of God (Jew), which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

 

It is not literally saying a person who is born again becomes a Jew. The NT is very clear that some believers are Gentiles and some are Jews, and many Jews are not saved. Those who rejected Jesus are still called Jews in the NT. What this verse is saying is that a true praiser of God is one who has a circumcised heart, born in the spirit.  

 

 

  Romans 9;6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

 

Romans 9:6 is simply saying that no all of Israel will receive the promises given to Israel thru the Messiah. It does not say that Gentiles become Israel. It is differentiating between those of Israel who believe in Jesus and those of Israel who do not believe in the Messiah. Some children of Israel do believe and the promises given by God to Israel are in effect for them. Gods words are true as not all of Israel has rejected Jesus as Messiah.  

 

Again, the NT is very clear that Jews/Israelites are Jews/Israelites, Gentiles are Gentiles, and some of each group will be saved, and remain as Jews if Jewish, and Gentiles if Gentile.