The ultimate proof of Biblical creation and God

[ByFaithAlone]

ok, so do you think that all possible worlds with free will have an unavoidable price to be paid, namely, a certain quantity of evil?

Ok. So I am going to bite

I would contend not. In all possible worlds with free will there is the possibility of evil. That I will grant. However, that price is not necessarily unavoidable as one can choose whether to fall what is good or what is evil.

Let me also note that in all possible worlds without free will there is also the possibility of evil and good or a combination of both. Not exactly relevant to the debate we are having right now but interesting...

[ByFaithAlone]

Just a question to viole on her evolutionary adaptation of morality. Why does altruism exist? For instance, a man sacrifices himself to save a person he barely knows leaving behind no kin or relatives. If everyone in the family did this, the family would die out while those who did not would naturally advance. If this is the case, why do humans value altruism? It seems contrary to your position on morality?

[ByFaithAlone]

Just a question to viole on her evolutionary adaptation of morality. Why does altruism exist? For instance, a man sacrifices himself to save a person he barely knows leaving behind no kin or relatives. If everyone in the family did this, the family would die out while those who did not would naturally advance. If this is the case, why do humans value altruism? It seems contrary to your position on morality?

Well, from the organism point of view that would not make sense. But from the gene's perspective, our altruism could guarantee an optimum for its survival. We share most of our genes with people we are related with and, therefore, tend to be more altruistic toward relatives, but this could apply also to total strangers who, nevertheless share a high quantity of genes. I don't know anybody who would sacrifice herself for, say, a spider.

I read the article but I am still confused on one part of your moral position. You believe that genes act to protect the future of the group as a whole rather than the individual itself. I can see the "gene's view" idea of altruism if there was one organism that sacrificed itself for the survival of multiple others or for an individual valuable to the future of the population (ex: the last female in the group) but what about cases of altruism involving a life for a life (which are the most common cases of altruism I generally hear about). There is no incentive for either the individual or the population as the gene pool remains constant from the gene perspective and the individual will not want to lose his/her life from an individual perspective. It seems that neither view could explain such a case of altruism which I view as the most common type (granted this is based not on evidence on what is the most common type, but rather the amount of cases that I have heard about).

[ByFaithAlone]

Concerning the life for a life, that is, the conscious sure sacrifice of one's life to benefit a total stranger, I am not sure it is very common. There wouldn't be such a scarcity of transplant organs if that was very common. But we should not forget that the moral equilibrium is locally stable and is achieved by the balancing of constant opposite forces: altruism and selfishness. Both forces might be active at all time with different degrees of intensity. So, it is possible to see organisms that present one of the two forms in its extreme forms. So, I am not surprised to see members of a population that would not sacrifice anything for anybody and members who would sacrifice everything for everybody. The latter ones are not many and are the ones who hit the news or become famous: we usually call them heroes.

Lol... we have really drifted off the topic of God and evolution being logically possible.

Anyways...

I agree with you on the idea that the majority of the cases involving one saving the life of a child could be explained through the gene view theory but even you brought up an example which I think is hard to explain. Organ transplants (in particular ones not donated by the dead), are given generally to someone you do not know. Why would people do this from an evolutionary perspective. I don't think the outliers explanation will cut it. Why would there be such dramatic outliers in the first place under the evolutionary view. Selfishness could be understood as the person wants to maintain their own survival and the desire for self-preservation are very strong but I don't understand why the other side of the spread should exist at all. Can evolution truly explain it?

[Guest]

.... I find the concept of God's concern troublesome. If He is omniscient, what sense does the word "concern" entail....

A Better Question Might Be Why Does An Atheist Exist

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.2 Peter 3:9

And Perhaps The Concept Of An Omniscient God Of Mercy And Judgement Is Troublesome

It is of the LORD's mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not.

They are new every morning: great is thy faithfulness. Lamentations 3:22-23

But You Couldn't Prove It By Me

The transgression of the wicked saith within my heart, that there is no fear of God before his eyes.

For he flattereth himself in his own eyes, until his iniquity be found to be hateful. Psalms 36:1-2

You See

~

Believe

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

And Be Blessed Beloved

Love, Joe

[ollkiller]

.... I find the concept of God's concern troublesome. If He is omniscient, what sense does the word "concern" entail....

A Better Question Might Be Why Does An Atheist Exist

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.2 Peter 3:9

Why does a christian, muslim, hindu, buddish, athiest, theist, etc, etc, etc exist. To me they all exist trying to understand this thing called life. All wanting to be in the position of "I know how it all happened, this is what this book tells me, this is true". Afraid to be in the position of i don't know how it happened. That's where i am.

And Perhaps The Concept Of An Omniscient God Of Mercy And Judgement Is Troublesome

To some it would be. To most of my athiest friends they don't find this troublesome because they don't feel the presence of God. If they did feel his/her presence i don't see them haveing any problem with that. Cue seek and you shall find text.

[slowpoke55]

And Perhaps The Concept Of An Omniscient God Of Mercy And Judgement Is Troublesome

To some it would be. To most of my athiest friends they don't find this troublesome because they don't feel the presence of God. If they did feel his/her presence i don't see them haveing any problem with that. Cue seek and you shall find text.

I don't find the concept of an omniscient god of mercy and judgement troublesome because as children (and for some of us as adults) that's what our parents appear to be. The the god component is parental at it's core and has been extended to a Platonic Form.

[Guest]

Mmh, this is not what I meant Joe. I find the concept of God's concern troublesome from a theological perspective. If God is omniscient, then He knows the fate of all His creatures since the beginning. How can you be concerned of something if you already know how it turns out?

I like soccer. The first time I watch one match, I might be concerned about the final result. But I will surely not be concerned the second time I watch it, would you?...

Why Any Make-Believe Land Of If. If.. If...

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9

Should Be Of Any (Real) Concern To You Dear One I Have No Idea

And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. Acts 2:21

When All Who Would Desire To Know God Who In His Astonishing Grace Opened The Way

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. John 14:6

Can Come And Shelter In His Arms

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8

Still Some Mock

Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding? Isaiah 29:16

And Like Dumb Brutes, Run Away

But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves. Jude 1:10

From Their Creator And Their God, The LORD Jesus Christ

I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. Revelation 22:16-17

~

Believe

God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

And Be Blessed Beloved

Love, Joe

[Guest]

A Better Question Might Be Why Does An Atheist Exist

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9

Why does a christian, muslim, hindu, buddish, athiest, theist, etc, etc, etc exist. To me they all exist trying to understand this thing called life. All wanting to be in the position of "I know how it all happened, this is what this book tells me, this is true". Afraid to be in the position of i don't know how it happened. That's where i am.....

Mercy

And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. Exodus 20:6

And Grace

Surely he scorneth the scorners: but he giveth grace unto the lowly. Proverbs 3:34

And His Family

For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. Romans 8:15

Do You See The Reason For Life.... Yet?

Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. Revelation 4:11

~

And Perhaps The Concept Of An Omniscient God Of Mercy And Judgement Is Troublesome

To some it would be. To most of my athiest friends they don't find this troublesome because they don't feel the presence of God. If they did feel his/her presence i don't see them having any problem with that. Cue seek and you shall find text....

A Couple Of Reasons

Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil. Ecclesiastes 8:11

Not To Believe

Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. Hebrews 3:12

And Dear One, Neither One Will Stand Up

But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. Matthew 12:36

And Save A Fellow

Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. Acts 4:12

You See?

God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

~

Seek

And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart. Jeremiah 20:13

And Believe

Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Matthew 7:13-15

And Be Blessed Beloved

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. John 6:47

Love, Joe

[Guest]

And Perhaps The Concept Of An Omniscient God Of Mercy And Judgement Is Troublesome

I don't find the concept of an omniscient god of mercy and judgement troublesome because as children (and for some of us as adults) that's what our parents appear to be. The the god component is parental at it's core and has been extended to a Platonic Form.

The Mind Killer Is Not Fear

There is no fear of God before their eyes. Romans 3:18

But Pride

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. Colossians 2:8

And There Is Nothing Anti-Romance

The LORD thy God in the midst of thee is mighty; he will save, he will rejoice over thee with joy; he will rest in his love, he will joy over thee with singing. Zephaniah 3:17

And Anti-Physical

But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,

Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:

And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS. Matthew 1:20-25

About The God Of Abraham, Isaac And Jacob

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8

And He Is Coming Back

Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. John 14:1-3

Are You Ready

And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. John 14:16-18

Really?

The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 3:35-36

Love, Joe