Sell It to the Marines

[papasangel]

All I can say Steff is that if you haven't been there and done that then don't go there. You are woefully uninformed about a lot of things in this topic. I suggest you go and visit our sealift commands yourself and see the truth. Meanwhile hope you do well in your dreamworld.

[Steff]

That argument does not fly. If the private sector can move items that fast then so can the military. It may require restructuring but it can be done.

[Guest The Chief]

Well, let's see...

(1) 20 tons of "tubes" is a far cry from 62 tons of M-1A1 Abrams.

(2) People are not the problem, equipment is. You can transport whole divisions with light weapons by air, but you leave the ancillary tracked vehicles, supporting columns, and fire support behind to catch a ride on whatever is available.

(3) Allies? You want to abrogate all the treaties we have with our perceived "allies." What "allies" are going to allow us use of their facilities?

(4) Seeing as the Panama Canal can be shut down with a satchel charge (or a forced change in governments to one less friendly to us), do you really expect to be able to utilize it in emergency, seeeing as we have relinquished ownership?

(5) The "new aircraft" is still on the drawing board, having just recently been approved for production. So, in 2 or 3 years (if all goes well - fat chance!) we should see the first units rolling out of the factories. Our "allies" aircraft (Nimrods, old "Trackers" and older model P-3's, plus helicopters) are also beginning to get a bit long on the tooth, and no real successor for them has been developed.

(6) Don't know what kind of sonar you were playing with in the tank tests with your models, but if the SQS-89 installed aboard the Moosbrugger and other towed array sonars aboard out 688(I)'s have difficulties detecting these subs, how do you justify your lack of concern? Maybe you haven't yet figured out that there is a major disparity between test tanks and models versus the real world of open ocean acoustics and a man behind a periscope trying to sink you. Hmm...must be the fact that if the ball drops you'll be safely back here on dry land while we're out there trying to stay alive with that "quiet as an open grave" KILO waiting to take a shot at us. BTW...what do you think is the thermal emission of a diesel-electric submarine on minimal battery power? FAR less than a nuke at a lesser speed, lol.

Maybe you need to change your reading habits. Get out of the Clancy genre, and read more Norman Polomar, Janes Defense Weekly, Navy Times, Naval Institute Proceedings, Alfred Thayer Mahan, and several others I could dig out for you. Join the service, go to sea for a long time, learn everything you can about what you so openly debate here, then come back and discuss this with me as one who knows, not one who reads and pretends to know. Been there, done that, have the quals to prove it, lol

[ted]

Good job Chief.

It took a while, but nowadays, I have to laugh at all the one's that claim superior military knowledge based on their ability to get the high score on Playstation2 games.

t.

[Guest The Chief]

ty ted...

Kinda irritates me to have individuals whose total knowledge comes from "book learnin'" and an apprenticeship(?), rather than getting their hands dirty and learning (sometimes painfully) the lessons I was attempting to explain, try and show me the "errors of my ways". I respect those who have done the homework and have the scars to show for it; I have less than respect for those who pretend they have done so, but expect me to believe they have...

[ted]

Yup. I agree.

I never try to think that I'm more smarter (see?) than any one else, but there are some things that can't be learned by simple reading and a little web research. Sometimes it takes the smells, sounds and touches of a situation to know about it, or, to give yourself a little more of an experience rather than a knowlege.

Anyway, Bless you.

How's the weather in Sampson county?

t.

[Steff]

Forgive my slow reply, I was busy doing work in the real world onsite.

Well, let's see...

(1) 20 tons of "tubes" is a far cry from 62 tons of M-1A1 Abrams.

Not when you consider the military has over 100 C-17's that can deliver 1-2 per flight along with a few troops. Or consider that for areas with improved runways the C-5 can deliver 3-5 vehicles.

(2) People are not the problem, equipment is. You can transport whole divisions with light weapons by air, but you leave the ancillary tracked vehicles, supporting columns, and fire support behind to catch a ride on whatever is available.

Are you forgetting air support?

(3) Allies? You want to abrogate all the treaties we have with our perceived "allies." What "allies" are going to allow us use of their facilities?

Well lets see, in WW2 we used British airfields and staging points, and other allies facilities in vietnam and Korea. I think we could manage when needed.

(4) Seeing as the Panama Canal can be shut down with a satchel charge (or a forced change in governments to one less friendly to us), do you really expect to be able to utilize it in emergency, seeeing as we have relinquished ownership?

Since we have ships in the pacific theater and the atlantic I don't forsee there being a problem.

(5) The "new aircraft" is still on the drawing board, having just recently been approved for production. So, in 2 or 3 years (if all goes well - fat chance!) we should see the first units rolling out of the factories. Our "allies" aircraft (Nimrods, old "Trackers" and older model P-3's, plus helicopters) are also beginning to get a bit long on the tooth, and no real successor for them has been developed.

I haven't kept up on recent aircraft but I could tell you new engine retrofits for gas and steam turbine equipment for nuclear powered ships.

(6) Don't know what kind of sonar you were playing with in the tank tests with your models, but if the SQS-89 installed aboard the Moosbrugger and other towed array sonars aboard out 688(I)'s have difficulties detecting these subs, how do you justify your lack of concern? Maybe you haven't yet figured out that there is a major disparity between test tanks and models versus the real world of open ocean acoustics and a man behind a periscope trying to sink you. Hmm...must be the fact that if the ball drops you'll be safely back here on dry land while we're out there trying to stay alive with that "quiet as an open grave" KILO waiting to take a shot at us. BTW...what do you think is the thermal emission of a diesel-electric submarine on minimal battery power? FAR less than a nuke at a lesser speed, lol.

When you are working on a scale model of the largest attack sub ever made and it's a 1/4 scale model, it's not exactly a "tank test".

The termal emissions tracking I was speaking of has nothing to do with thermal output of the sub itself, but rather disturbing thermal layers in the ocean leaving a trail that can be followed by satellites.

Just FYI, the seawolf class has not lost a wargame yet with other subs, including diesel electrics.

The replacement for the 688 class attack subs isn't too far off, in fact the first SSN 774 Virginia class should roll of the assembly line this year if I'm not mistaken. While they don't have the capabilities of the SSN 21 Seawolf, they are a large improvement over the aging SSN 688's.

Maybe you need to change your reading habits. Get out of the Clancy genre, and read more Norman Polomar, Janes Defense Weekly, Navy Times, Naval Institute Proceedings, Alfred Thayer Mahan, and several others I could dig out for you. Join the service, go to sea for a long time, learn everything you can about what you so openly debate here, then come back and discuss this with me as one who knows, not one who reads and pretends to know. Been there, done that, have the quals to prove it, lol

You can speak of reading all you want, I rarely read Clancy Novels, and most of my reading is engineering, vibrations, acoustics, and steam generation. Most of my knowledge comes from personal experience. While I don't have 20 years in the navy and can't tell you everything, I believe I have just as good an Idea of what submarines are capable of as you do. After all, I'm one of those "damn civilians" who design them.

It took a while, but nowadays, I have to laugh at all the one's that claim superior military knowledge based on their ability to get the high score on Playstation2 games.

I never claimed to have "Superior military Knowledge" Ted, I was just pointing out in defense of my statement of why what I'd do as president would work.

I would remind you that US Transcom was formed when we lost a "Playstation 2" wargame because logistics couldn't keep up.

Games are a invaluable learning tool for tactics.

Haven't you ever wondered if you could take Napoleons forces at Waterloo and win with better tactics? Games allow for testing a tactical theory.

[Guest The Chief]

Ted, Sampson County is FINALLY cooling down, lol (Sampson County is actually about 3 miles South of me...I'm in Johnston County ).

Steff, "damn civilians" are your words, not mine

Beyond that, attempting to discuss global military strategy with someone who uses wargaming as his basis for policy, and with no viable training and experience to formulate his ideas on how things "could" work, is totally pointless. It seems you are selling panacea, much like a snake oil salesman who has no real idea of what is in the bottle, and an even lesser idea of what ails the patient!

If the "ideas" you have presented here are an example of the bedrock upon which your party lines (Libertarian?) are based, it is small wonder that we have had no Libertarian Presidents, and are likely to never have. The American people are far more intelligent than you give us credit for, even us "swab jockies."

I'll leave the parting shot to you, and will even have the good grace of not responding, as I believe that is where you'd feel most comfortable; your views being expounded upon with little to no knowledgeable opposition to show how far off center you really are.

[Guest The Chief]

Ted, Sampson County is FINALLY cooling down, lol (Sampson County is actually about 3 miles South of me...I'm in Johnston County ).

Steff, "damn civilians" are your words, not mine

Beyond that, attempting to discuss global military strategy with someone who uses wargaming as his basis for policy, and with no viable training and experience to formulate his ideas on how things "could" work, is totally pointless. It seems you are selling panacea, much like a snake oil salesman who has no real idea of what is in the bottle, and an even lesser idea of what ails the patient!

If the "ideas" you have presented here are an example of the bedrock upon which your party lines (Libertarian?) are based, it is small wonder that we have had no Libertarian Presidents, and are likely to never have. The American people are far more intelligent than you give us credit for, even us "swab jockies."

I'll leave the parting shot to you, and will even have the good grace of not responding, as I believe that is where you'd feel most comfortable; your views being expounded upon with little to no knowledgeable opposition to show how far off center you really are.

[ted]

Ted, Sampson County is FINALLY cooling down, lol (Sampson County is actually about 3 miles South of me...I'm in Johnston County   ).

Oops!

I drive right up 95 to 40 every morning but it's in the dark. I always mess up where the line is!

Steff, please forgive me. I was in a mood yesterday and said that remark about the Playstation2. I know you are well learned in some of these matters but let me explain where I was coming from. I work on the Apache helicopter as a civilian. It's my everyday job and been working on them for 12 years now. We have engineers come in from time to time and while they are smart about some things, most of them are lost as far as the day to day stuff it takes to keep them running. When I'm talking about these things, it's from my perspective of working on them. When we try to explain some of our problems to the "smart guys", they have a hard time understanding due to lack of experience.

I should have stated my point this way instead of making the Playstation joke.

Personally, I think the military wastes too much time with their little simulators and puts too much stock in them. It's all a big computer game to some of these officers and they get too wrapped up in it. They can win any war using Powerpoint, but fall on their faces out in the woods.

JMO.

Hope you understand.

t.