STANDING and STATE

[larryt]

1Jo 1:8

[dgolvach]

Jesus was born of God. He is the good tree and he imputes his righteousness to the sinners who recieve him as their lord and savior. The reason I know hes the good tree is because a good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit. Are there any here amongst us who have not brought forth evil fruit.(Sin) If you have not, please tell me how you do it. Anyone here with no evil fruit in their life? Remember, a good tree CANNOT bring forth evil fruit.

God Bless

Dan

[lifesharer]

This is one of the most complex and debated question i have delt with. Its answer is just as complex.

There are no paradoxes in scriptures, just lack of understanding. Let me first reccomend you to the subject titled "regeneration" in the doctrinal question forums. Regeneration is the key to as much as half of the NT scriptures . A clear understanding of this subject resolves completely this seeming paradox.

Regeneration: ( spirit rebirth ( john 3:6, ezekiel 11: 19 and jeremiah 31: 33 Ro. 2: 28-29 + col. 2:11-14) is a LITERAL healing/ rebirth/ restoration of our human spirit to the original divinely created state that Adam had before he sinned. This new creation, or newness of life , also called circumcision of the heart and remission of sin(S) is what makes it possible for a christian to walk without having to sin if they are willing to be ( allegoricaly/ symbolicaly yet also literaly through personal experience ) crucified with Christ. ( dead to self / living for and submitted to Christ)

There are two parts to this solution to sin. PLEASE READ THESE VERSES AS I GIVE THEM FOR FULL UNDERSTANDING.

1) The effects of the law being able to condemn us or convict us of sin is removed as seen in Ro. chapters 6 through 8:1-17, because a christian can be (after regeneration ( being born again spiritualy) able to be led in every thing by the holy Spirit (john 3:8+ Gal. 5:16-18) he is no longer subject to the jurisdiction of the law (Gal. 5: 18 , Ro 8:1, Ro. 6: 1-14 and many other verses. Therefore where there is no law :" Sin is not imputed" Ro. 5: 13. This is what is meant by the scriptural concept of "Grace". And NOT some magical power from God to resist sin as the catholics assumed.

This then resolves the LEGAL aspect of how we are condemned or even convinced by the law when we " sin".

Now, "sin" is the breaking of the law, and the law is the manifestation of Gods perfect will AND HOLINESS. It makes tangible what was essentialy spiritual to the carnal unregenerated man and was meant for that very purpose to be our conscience making sin to be sinful. (Ro chapter 5)

2) But an unregenerated man cannot be led by the Spirit ( john 3:8) and therefore God has established the gift of regeneration ( John 3:6, Ro. 2: 28-29 + Col 2: 11-14 etc.) for us so that we can again have that intimate personal communion with God ( face to face in allegory) that is essential to our walking with God without sinning. And if we are obediant to the leading of the holy Spirit we can NOT be condemned by the law. This is what is meant in 1 peter 3: 21 of : ".... an answer of a good conscience towards God". The human spirit has three basic functions: communion, intuition ( revelation) and conscience and they work like this: by intimate communion with God, our spirit intuitivly KNOWs what is good and evil ( conscience ) because God is the standard of truth and holiness. In effect God becomes our conscience through His Spirit to our spirit. To see this in effect,...read 1Cor. 2: 9-16.

So now we have the solution to the problem of sin: No sin ( condemnation unto spiritual death as being seperated from God again) is apportioned to you if you fail to be perfectly obediant to God's PERFECT will as led by the Spirit ( Ro. 8: 1) and our NATURE is changed to facilitate this walk with God. we no longer have that adamic sin nature but are new creations with the divinely created nature restored in us, being called the sons of God.

1 John 1:8 and 10 are duplicate statements addressing the factual state of all men as being sinners. And NOT a mandate to justify our weaknesses and sins. It is NOT meant to be applied to a regenerated, spirit led christain as Ro. 8:1 clearly shows. Obviously these verses were addressed to self proclaimed " righteous ones" like the Pharrisees.

We are no longer the "corrupt tree" as NOW we can KNOW (spiritualy discern)what Gods perfect will is in all things because we can enter boldly into the holy of holies ourselves and ask!

Regeneration is NOT absolute barrier to sinning, it is Gods way of solving the problem of sin and respecting our free wills too. In fact many who are regenerated never walk in it; not understanding it, and become carnal again having thier conscience (spirit) seared again!( 1 Tim. 4:2) And baby christians (spiritualy immature/ unrenewed/ un sanctified), may well disobey the leading of the Spirit or succumb to the fleshly lusts, BUT if they repent and turn back to the Spirits leadings they are washed again of all sin and are positionally (legaly and factualy) perfect before God. Its no longer about a system of works we do ( the OT Laws)but about a living personal relationship with Christ by the indwelling Holy Spirit. Praise GOD who is full of grace and mercy towards us!

Lifesharer

[larryt]

Jesus was born of God. He is the good tree and he imputes his righteousness to the sinners who recieve him as their lord and savior. The reason I know hes the good tree is because a good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit. Are there any here amongst us who have not brought forth evil fruit.(Sin) If you have not, please tell me how you do it. Anyone here with no evil fruit in their life? Remember, a good tree CANNOT bring forth evil fruit.

God Bless

Dan

Hi dgolvach,

A paradox is by definition, two things that APPEAR to contradict each other, but in fact are both true. None of us have any trouble accepting the first verses of the thread, but how do we reconcile the second set which says "and does not commit sin" & "and cannot sin." The verse out of Matt. in context below

Matt. 7:16  Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17  Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18  A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19  Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Is describing how to recognize true followers of the Lord - good fruit.

Think about it.

LT

[larryt]

This is one of the most complex and debated question i have delt with. Its answer is just as complex.

  There are no paradoxes in scriptures, just  lack of understanding. Let me first reccomend you to the subject titled "regeneration" in the doctrinal question forums. Regeneration is the key to as much as half  of the NT scriptures . A clear understanding of this subject resolves completely this seeming paradox.

  Regeneration: ( spirit rebirth ( john 3:6, ezekiel 11: 19 and jeremiah 31: 33 Ro. 2: 28-29 + col. 2:11-14) is a LITERAL healing/ rebirth/ restoration of our human spirit to the original divinely created state that Adam had before he sinned. This new creation,  or newness of life , also called circumcision of the heart  and remission of sin(S) is what makes it possible for a christian to walk without having to sin if they are willing to be ( allegoricaly/ symbolicaly yet also literaly through personal experience ) crucified with Christ.  ( dead to self / living for and submitted to Christ)

  There are two parts to this solution to sin.  PLEASE READ THESE VERSES AS I GIVE THEM FOR FULL UNDERSTANDING.

  1) The effects of the law being able to condemn us or convict us of sin is removed as seen in Ro. chapters 6 through 8:1-17,  because a christian can be (after regeneration ( being born again spiritualy) able to be led in every thing by the holy Spirit (john 3:8+ Gal. 5:16-18) he is no longer subject to the jurisdiction of the law (Gal. 5: 18 , Ro 8:1, Ro. 6: 1-14 and many other verses. Therefore where there is no law :" Sin is not imputed" Ro. 5: 13. This is what is meant by the scriptural concept of "Grace". And NOT some magical power from God to resist sin as the catholics assumed.

This then resolves the LEGAL aspect of how we are condemned or even convinced by the law when we " sin".

Now, "sin" is the breaking of the law, and the law is the manifestation of Gods perfect will AND HOLINESS. It makes tangible what was essentialy spiritual to the carnal unregenerated man and was meant for that very purpose to be our conscience making sin to be sinful. (Ro chapter 5)

  2) But an unregenerated man cannot be led by the Spirit ( john 3:8) and therefore God has established the gift of regeneration ( John 3:6, Ro. 2: 28-29 + Col 2: 11-14 etc.) for us so that we can again have that intimate personal communion with God ( face to face in allegory) that is essential to our walking with God without sinning.  And if we are obediant to the leading of the holy Spirit we can NOT be condemned by the law.  This is what is meant in 1 peter 3: 21 of : ".... an answer of a good conscience towards God". The human spirit has three basic functions: communion, intuition ( revelation) and conscience and they work like this: by intimate communion with God, our spirit intuitivly KNOWs what is good and evil ( conscience ) because God is the standard of truth and holiness. In effect God becomes our conscience through His Spirit to our spirit. To see this in effect,...read 1Cor. 2: 9-16. 

    So now we have the solution to the problem of sin: No sin ( condemnation unto spiritual death as being seperated from God again) is apportioned to you if you fail to be perfectly obediant to God's PERFECT will as led by the Spirit ( Ro. 8: 1) and our NATURE is changed to facilitate this walk with God. we no longer have that adamic sin nature but are new creations with the divinely created nature restored in us, being called the sons of God.

  1 John 1:8 and 10 are duplicate statements addressing the factual state of all men as being sinners. And NOT a mandate to justify our weaknesses and sins. It is NOT meant to be applied to a regenerated, spirit led christain as Ro. 8:1 clearly shows. Obviously these verses were addressed to self proclaimed " righteous ones" like the Pharrisees.

We are no longer the "corrupt tree" as NOW we can KNOW (spiritualy discern)what Gods perfect will is in all things because we can enter boldly into the holy of holies ourselves and ask!

Regeneration is NOT absolute barrier to sinning, it is Gods way of solving the problem of sin and respecting our free wills too. In fact many who are regenerated never walk in it; not understanding it, and become carnal again having thier conscience (spirit) seared again!( 1 Tim. 4:2) And baby christians (spiritualy immature/ unrenewed/ un sanctified), may well disobey the leading of the Spirit or succumb to the fleshly lusts, BUT if they repent and turn back to the Spirits leadings they are washed again of all sin and are positionally (legaly and factualy) perfect before God. Its no longer about a system of works we do ( the OT Laws)but about a living personal relationship with Christ by the indwelling Holy Spirit. Praise GOD who is full of grace and mercy towards us!

  Lifesharer

Hi lifesharer,

Thank you for your post. The direction I am trying to head in is the doctrine of "Standing & State."

I take it you are seeing this allegorically. Please correct me if I am wrong in this assumption.

How do you interpret 1John 3:9, which says "doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin?"

Do you see this as an allegory?

LT