Women in the Church

[Guest PistosHuios]

.as the Law says. I believe Paul was quoting from the old test when he stated, "as the Law says". It was not permitted for a woman in Old Testament according to the law to speak.

Can someone show me where in the OT this was actually written? I've never seen the OT passages but I too believe paul was referencing the Old Testament Law, and maybe that's where we need to focus our study.

[book_wirm]

I have a few comments to make in response to Shecaniah's post.

First Shecaniah says:

"I think the answer is right in the verse you quoted in I Corinthians 14:34 ........as the Law says. I believe Paul was quoting from the old test when he stated, "as the Law says". It was not permitted for a woman in Old Testament according to the law to speak. If she had a question, she had to ask her husband."

Well, at least we can agree on one thing, the answer is in the verse. We do, however, disagree as to what that answer is. I will start by asking you what law is he refering to? Please provide me with an Old Testament law that states a woman may not speak. If you can find this I would be very interested in seeing it because the truth is (before you waste any time looking) there is no such law. The Old Testament bits he is refering to has to do with a woman being under subjection to her husband not keeping silent.

Shecaniah continues:

"But since we are no longer under the law, but grace it is permitted for a woman to teach/preach. Some may disagree..."

Yes, some do disagree (namely me). Have you considered the implications of that statement held in such an unscriptural way? Why can I not commit adultery? Why can't I steal? Why can't I and my homosexual lover kill a drug store clerk in a drunken/drug induced rampage? After all "we're not under the law" right? Where exactly does that statement end? How can you say there are any "rules" I, as a Christian, should live by. After all I'm not under law, but grace.

Now, of course those suggestions are ridiculous. But so is the stance taken by those who wish to pick and choose which parts of the New Testament they think they should follow while hiding behind the "not under law" excuse.

Shecaniah finsishes:

"I also base my answer on Colossians 3:11, "where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all". "

I'll make no statement regarding the passage you quoted for it says absolutely nothing about the role of women in the church. I believe you may have been thinking about another passage (Gal. 3:28). It is in that passage that Paul says "there is neither male nor female". Had you quoted that passage I would've seen that at least your citation could be twisted to promote your view. Then I would have asked you if you support homosexuality and homosexual marriage. After all, I would have said, there is no male or female. Then I would've stated how I was being facicious and said that you have misunderstood this passage. I would've said we can know this because both homosexuality and women as pastors (teachers of men, deacons, church leaders, etc) are clearly spoken of elswhere in the scriptures so this cannot be saying that those are acceptible. I would have ended by saying that this verse simply tells us that there is no differnce between any two opposites that prevents either from salvation by the merciful grace of God as contrasted with the Old Testament selection of Israel alone.

I know that I have spoken harshly here and I apologize if you are offended. That was not my intention. I won't sit by, though, and watch scripture be twisted to lead us away from the truth. Disregard everything I have said and let us be family again if it bothers you that much for I would rather remember that through God we are one blood, you and I. But if it has pricked your heart, study it, read it, pray about it, and bring yourself into a closer walk with the faith.

In Christ,

Eric

Edited May 1, 2005 by book_wirm

[Guest Johannes]

It's time for wives to learn their proper place and submit to their husbands. There is nothing wrong with submitting. There is nothing "unequal" about it.

Likewise, it's time for men to learn how to be leaders and put their foot down.

[Guest PistosHuios]

Hey book_wirm I liike what you had to say, I think your right.

However, you do fail to mention what "law" it is that Paul is speaking about. If not the Jewish Law then what Law? My Bible capitalizes, so I just assumed it was the Jewish Law.

I can't think of what other law that Paul would be referencing here. If you or somone else could shed some light on that, it would be good.

[book_wirm]

Pistos_Hoius,

Gen 3:16

Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire [shall be] to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

I believe this is the "law" to which Paul refered. Notice that this is given long before the Mosaic Law which so many Christians more than reject: the vehemently speak ill of. Yet it is this law that the majority of our (meaning Chrsitian) moral code is built on. Do not confuse what I am saying. I am not promoting the following of the Old Testament law, God forbid. It has neither power to save nor place in Grace, but it is good. Read Paul's words:

Romans 7:12

Wherefore the law [is] holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

The Old Testament as a whole is often refered to as "the law and the prophets". We can know that this is the reasoning behind Paul's declaration in I Cor 14:34 by reviewing another passage also written by Paul and also providing instruction on the proper role of women in the church:

I Tim 2:12-14

But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in transgression.

Paul here affirms the role of women in the church, and what is his reasoning? He reaches here also back to the beginning with Adam and Eve.

I hope that helped.

In Christ,

Eric