Matthew 24:29-31, is this the rapture or second coming or both?

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Lamad.

 

 

Shalom, Lamad.

 

 

Shalom, Lamad.

 

 

 

 

Why do you continue to twist my words? Do you ENJOY putting someone else down, or what? I didn't say that God our Father does not have a home, nor did I say that Yeshua` went nowhere! What I said was that the New Jerusalem IS our Father's house, and that THAT is where Yeshua` told His disciples He was going! Why is that so hard for you to grasp?

 

Secondly, read whatever testimonies you would like, BUT TAKE THEM WITH A GRAIN OF SALT! They are the words of human beings, and no matter how well-intentioned, human beings MAKE MISTAKES! It's much better to take the context of passages of Scripture than to pit people's testimonies against the Scriptures! In the final analysis, "let God be true and EVERY MAN A LIAR!" Do you think those words were said idly? "Oh, it's just a figure of speech." NO! We are to take God's Word over ANY testimony we read or hear!

Notice what you wrote a while back: 

 

"So, the heaven (Hebrew: shaamayim = skies) and the heaven of heavens (Hebrew: uwshmeey hashaamayim = and the sky of the skies or outer space) cannot contain Him; so, where is this abode of God you are talking about? It DOESN'T EXIST!"

 

I guess there is really not much you and I agree on concerning End times. Did you stop to consider that God is in three parts as we are in three parts: body, soul and spirit. It is the SPIRIT of God that is everywhere. I have not found one verse anywhere where God the Father is EVER off this throne. It seems when He is seen, He is always sitting on the throne. Where is that throne? I think we both agree, it is in the New Jerusalem. But here is where we may disagree. WHERE is the New Jerusalem?

 

 You seem to think it is floating by itself somewhere in outer space, and I think it is on a planet. But the truth is, we don't know for sure, because God never told us.   I guess you did not read my post either. Personal testimony is FINE if it agrees with the word of God.  Remember, Peter gave His personal testimony at the 1st Jerusalem conference, and it was enough to convince the rest.  Many times, though, personal testimony goes beyond scripture, and tells us things that the bible does not cover. Should we ignore everything from personal testimony that the bible is silent about? An example would be people seeing their pets in heaven.   By the way, I don't EVER "pit people's testimonies against the scriptures." But when they fit well with the scriptures, I see no reason to ignore them. If I have two different testimonies that tell me heaven is a planet, and this does not contridict the bible, I choose to believe it. After all, the bible does say, let everything be established with two or three witnesses. I know of two that tells me heaven is a planet. However, the bible is SILENT here. All we know is there is a New Jerusalem somewhere. That is as far as the bible goes. It is not a life or death matter anyway; one day we will see it will out own eyes.

 

Lamad

 

 

Apparently, there's a bit of a miscommunication. It's on my part, too, I'll add, because you obviously have the wrong idea of what I'm saying. (See? Human beings DO make mistakes!) Yes, God has a HOUSE; no, it does not contain Him! Therefore, He does not have an ABODE! He cannot abide there anymore than Solomon recognized that the Temple could contain Him. The house is not for Him; it is for His children!

 

Look, there's a practical reason for the New Jerusalem's construction being in space. Each of the foundations that are listed are generally not transparent on earth. Why not? Because they are a compound of crystals in a loose matrix that do not allow light to pass completely through. However, we are told that the city is at least translucent, allowing most of the light within to shine through it's walls and foundations because we are told that it glows with the light of God! Crystals grow best when not subjected to the pressures associated with gravity. In space, a sheet of metal can be formed into one single crystal such that the entire crystal has the same basic structure as a simple crystal only with many more atoms in the recurring pattern of crystal. It takes time, consistent heat, and constant force to form such a crystal on the surface of the earth. That's why the process of making silicon wafers is so expensive, and that's not even counting the doping, oxidation and etching processes to create microprocessor chips.

 

Furthermore, this city is HUGE! 1,500 miles is the distance from my home here in the Tampa Bay area in Florida to Minneapolis, Minnesota, and that's just the distance from one corner of the city to the other corner of the city on the same wall! The diagonal distance is much greater! Because the city is said to be a Park (Hebrew: Pardeec; Greek: Paradeisos) of Trees or an Orchard, the majority of the inside of the city is lush and green all interconnected with this street of gold and the river that flows throughout the city three-dimensionally! Inside the city, it may SEEM like one is on another planet! However, the ecosystem of the city is SELF-CONTAINED while it is under construction! It's frankly NOT READY, YET!

 

When it is ready, it will descend to the New Earth and its ecosystem will combine with that of the New Earth. THAT is when we are told that the gates will always stand open!

Furthermore, IF it was on another planet, how far away is the planet? How long will it take for it to get here? We only have between 1000 years and 1300 years before the New Earth is created. Would that be enough time for it to arrive? That's another reason why I believe that it's in space, already en route to Earth.

 

I don't have a problem with personal testimony, either, except for the fact that it opens up the possibility of contradicting what the Scriptures say. You mention the "bible" several times above, but I find that it may be indicative that you will capitalize "God the Father," and the "Holy SPIRIT" but not the "Bible!" If it is God's Word, then it should be capitalized as much as His Titles or His Name would be! If you treat the "Book of books" as just another book, then you will be far more likely to take personal testimony to a level that equals or even exceeds that of the Bible itself! All I'm asking is for you, please, be careful with personal testimony and weigh it carefully against what the Bible DOES say to be sure that it doesn't contradict it.

Ha ha! You are thinking in terms of the three dimensions we know of. The spiritual is in a different dimension. However far away the 3rd heaven is, travel there seems to take only seconds or minutes. As Jessie Duplantis put it, He was Texas get smaller and smaller, then the US get smaller and smaller, then the world get smaller and smaller and soon (I am guessing seconds) was out of our solar system. It seemed to him that he was on his natural body, for in heaven he had the same suit on. Others who have gone by spirit say that in one instant, it seemed as if they were there. One man was praying, and heard the worlds, "come up here." He looked up and saw Jesus, and it seemed instantly He was in heaven. Therefore I don't think we need to even consider any kind of time as we know it, for the City to arrive here.

 

As for contridicting scripture, did you ever notice what Paul wrote?

 

1 Corinthians 14:29

Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge.

 

What are we to judge? Of course, if the prophet is speaking in agreement with the word of God. I think we must do that with every book we read also. For example, I have read a lot of books about the book of Revelation, where much of it was simply wrong; only man's theories that did not fit the scriptures.  There was a very well known lady here in Tulsa for three days, speaking on Revelation. She had memorized the book years ago. I wanted to go, but my own church had special meetings at the time. So I found some Youtube videos of her and listened...for a while. I searched youtube for "Marilyn Hickey revelation". It did not take me long to realize I did not miss much in missing her three days of teaching.  Thanks. I ALWAYS judge carefully what I read by the bible. I realize the word of God is contained in the bible, but the bible is only paper with words. The bible will just collect dust uniess it is picked up and read! It will do no one any good at all if it just collects dust. It will not bring salvation, healing, or anything else unless the words get off the written page and into a human's heart. A while ago, I heard a preacher tell the people, "put your bible on the floor, and stand on it." He did the same thing. Then he led the people in a confession about standing on the word of God, no matter what circumstances are being faced. I found out later, some people would not follow his lead. After, someone ask me how I felt about it.  Someone would get beheaded in a Muslim country for standing on a Koran! I value the word of God VERY HIGHLY and strive to keep every word I speak in line with what God says about me in the bible. But on the other hand, it does not bother me at all to mark in my bible, or thow away a bible that is worn out.

 

I personally do not believe the New Jerusalem will descend down on this planet. A city 1500 miles cubed would seem too large for this planet! I expect the new earth to be much larger! On the other hand, what if the new earth is the current planet of heaven? New Jerusalem is already on that planet!  Just a thought.

 

I am not sure I agree with you. As I said before, it seems every time God our Father is seen, He is always seen on the throne in heaven. I would therefore consider the throne as God's eternal home. Jesus ascended to be at the father's right hand, so He too as there. But on the other hand, it seems God does not have a palace or mansion or home of any kind: His home is the throne!

 

Lamad

 

 

(Sigh.) Where does it say that the "spiritual is in another dimension?" What other dimensions do you experientially KNOW about?! Besides, I DO think about other dimensions; for instance, the fourth dimension is TIME! This is best understood in stop-action photography, such as is portrayed in certain commercials on TV. I'm thinking of the commercial that shows a series of pictures of a boy running into his mother's arms, talking about the data that is involved in capturing that moment of time. Each time the boy and his mother (and all the other objects in the scene) are shown, each has its own three dimensions PLUS the time that went by between those images.

 

I'm not ignorant of the THEORIES of other dimensions. I know that some have suggested a possibility of 26 dimensions to reality, but which ones affect OUR lives directly? Just the four! You CLAIM that the spiritual is another dimension, but what proof have you?! THERE IS NONE!!! It is PURE CONJECTURE!!!

 

The Bible (capitalized) is the "BOOK of books." It is the SUM of God's very words to mankind! It is God's WORD, and it is GOD'S Word! A book is just some words printed on paper and whether that paper is sewn or glued and bound with a cover or rolled up in a scroll, it is just a physical object. However, the Flag of the United States of America is just some dyed fabric sewn together, too! But, just as the Flag represents all of the ideals behind the Flag inherent in the symbol, so the Bible is the symbol of God's Word! In fact, it IS the Word of God, and deserves our respect, just as does the Flag because of the ideals and the sacrifices behind that Flag. So, I need to capitalize the Bible out of respect for the God whose Word it is! It deserves more respect and honor from us than the Koran receives from a Muslim!

 

Finally, you said, "I personally do not believe the New Jerusalem will descend down on this planet." And yet, we read this in God's Word:

 

 

Revelation 21:1-3

21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

KJV

    

And,...

 

Revelation 21:9-11

9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; ...

KJV

 

At this point, one must compare this passage with 2 Peter 3:3-13:

 

 

2 Peter 3:3-13

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

KJV

 

Therefore, just as the first earth and sky was not abandoned for a second earth but the second earth was made FROM the remnants of the first earth after the Flood, so the third earth will be made from the remnants of the second earth after the Fire. Then, notice that the wording of Revelation 21:1-3 and 9-11 are worded from the perspective of the New Earth! The city descends TO the New Earth, COMING down from the sky! And, God's tabernacle ("tent") will be WITH MEN, not the reverse! Thus, the natural understanding of this passage disagrees with your statement.

I have been "in the Spirit." I know it is different. If it were the same dimension, we would be able to see angels and demons - but we cannot. But when we are there, "in the Spirit," we see in that dimension. You are right, time is another dimension.

 

Yes, most certainly the New Jerusalem will descend, but NOT ON THIS PLANET! Did you not read verse one of that chapter? This planet passes away.

 

so the third earth will be made from the remnants of the second earth after the Fire.

 

what proof have you?! THERE IS NONE!!! It is PURE CONJECTURE!!!   When it says passed away, and we get a NEW earth, I tend to believe it. But, again we may be disagreeing on TIME.

 

WHEN will Peter's fire destroy this planet? I think during the 70th week - before the Millennial reign of Christ. When did John see the new city? AFTER the Millennial reign.

 

Lamad

 

 

Oh, NO, bro'! There's proof! It's not just conjecture:

 

 

Psalm 89:35-37

35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.

36 His seed shall endure forever, and his throne as the sun before me.

37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.

KJV

 

 

Deuteronomy 4:40

40 Thou shalt keep therefore his statutes, and his commandments, which I command thee this day, that it may go well with thee, and with thy children after thee, and that thou mayest prolong thy days upon the earth, which the Lord  thy God giveth thee, for ever.

KJV

    

Psalm 78:67-69

67 Moreover he refused the tabernacle of Joseph, and chose not the tribe of Ephraim:

68 But chose the tribe of Judah, the mount Zion which he loved.

69 And he built his sanctuary like high palaces, like the earth which he hath established for ever.

KJV

    

Psalm 104:1-5

104 Bless the Lord , O my soul. O Lord  my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty.

2 Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain:

3 Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind:

4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:

5 Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.

KJV

    

Ecclesiastes 1:4

4 One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.

KJV

 

Regarding the Fire of 2 Peter 3:8-12, one should not forget that Kefa (Peter) also said, right there in 2 Peter 3:8, that the day of the LORD IS a thousand years, and that "the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men" is at the END of that thousand-year Day!

 

It is so described in Revelation 20:

 

 

Revelation 20:1-15

1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

KJV

 

THAT'S the proof! How else could one rectify the two sets of Scripture? It's simply that the SURFACE of the planet Earth will undergo the Fire, not all the rest of the whole planet!

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, again, Lamad.

 

I also shouldn't let this go without adding that another passage which must be correlated to Revelation 20 and 2 Peter 3 is 1 Corinthians 15:20-28:

 

 

1 Corinthians 15:20-28

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

KJV

 

Please understand that this passage is NOT in precise chronological order because it is from a passage of Scripture where the focus is on RESURRECTION, not timing. Furthermore, Paul (Sha'uwl) is an Isra'elite. As such, his literary construction is going to be Jewish which gives the summary first and then goes into the details. So, verse 24 gives a summary and verses 25 through 28a give the details.

 

So, he was focused on the three resurrections: that of the Messiah, the "firstfruits" in verse 23; that of those who are His when He returns, also in verse 23, and that of those at the end, in verse 24.

 

However, he DID go into the details of the reign of the Messiah: "For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. (But when he saith, 'all things are put under him' (the Messiah), it is manifest (obvious) that he (God the Father) is excepted, which did put all things under him.) And when all things shall be subdued unto him, ..." Some make the mistake of thinking that the Messiah's reign - the Millennial portion of His Reign - will be a time of peace for the whole earth. Actually, it will be a FORCED peace at best as the Messiah SUBDUES His enemies! That subduing will be consistent throughout the thousand-year period until the last enemy, Death, is finally conquered AT THE END of that thousand-year period! And, it is not until haSatan is released from his prison AFTER the thousand years that the Fire falls!

 

The character of the Millennium is best seen in Psalm 2. I'm going to add in quotation marks and color the words. Green is narration; blue are the words of people; red are the words of the Messiah (the Anointed), and purple (both dark and light) are the words of God the Father:

 

 

Psalm 2:1-12

1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?

2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his Anointed, saying,

3 "Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us."

4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.

5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.

6 "Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

7 I will declare the decree: 'the LORD hath said unto me, <<Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.>>'

10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.

11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.

12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him."

KJV

 

Hope this helps all who read it understand the true nature of the Millennium.

[iamlamad]

Retrobyter wrote,

 

"THAT'S the proof! How else could one rectify the two sets of Scripture? It's simply that the SURFACE of the planet Earth will undergo the Fire, not all the rest of the whole planet!"

 

I have two problems with your theory: I am guessing the judgment seat of Jesus will by toward the end of the 7 plus years the bride is in heaven, after the pretrib rapture, or else just after the wedding.  HOW are we to be judged? Paul tells us our WORKS will be judged by fire. The fire you speak of, on the surface, will surely come during the 7 years of Daniel's 70th week. If anyone has much works on earth, but transfered nothing to heaven, they will suffer much loss, but if they are born again ,they will make heaven, yet so-as by fire, as Paul wrote. it is with this judgment that God sets those up as judges during the millennial reign. Therefore, I think the fire must come during the 7 years.

 

Next, when I read Rev 21:1, it seems to leave no room for any alternatives. Then again, Jesus said:
 

Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

 

Then John wrote,

 

^{Rev. 20:11} Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.

 

How do we read these verses?  If indeed they pass away and a NEW earth comes, then can it be said that the earth remains forever? Will a second earth fulfill this prophecy?

 

Lamad

[ENOCH2010]

Shalom, Enoch.

 

Roy, a pre-triber, has a habit of, when reading something in the Bible that don't fit their theology they just ignore it and try to convince everybody that what they just read means something other than what it says.

 

Actually, I'm NOT a "pre-tribber," although I am premillennial. I'm a POST-tribber, about as POST-trib as one can get! I believe that we are CURRENTLY in the tribulation and have been since 30 A.D! The Jews, including those who were followers of the true Messiah, were given a 40-year period to prepare for the worst, but it kicked into high gear in 70 A.D. and has been going on - off and on - since then! I believe that the "tribulation" (Greek: thlipsis = "pressure") is NOT the same thing as the seventieth Seven of Dani'el 9:27. Instead, I believe that the first half of the seventieth Seven was Yeshua`s "ministry" - His offer of the Kingdom to Isra'el - begun roughly in 26 A.D. and ended in 30 A.D. (a three-and-a-half-year period). The second half of the seventieth Seven will also be His offer of the Kingdom to Isra'el, but that won't begin UNTIL AFTER HE ARRIVES, and His arrival comes immediately after the end of the tribulation! I DO believe that the tribulation will crescendo before His arrival, but it is impossible (in my opinion) to pin it down to x number of years!

 

Secondly, I haven't found a thing in the Scriptures that doesn't fit into my "theology" ever since I kicked OUT my theology (which WAS pre-trib, by the way) and began re-buliding it from SCRATCH directly from the Scriptures back in 1977-8 when I was in my early 20's! I've learned quite a bit since then, and I'll admit I don't know it all, yet. There's much yet to learn, but by being able to throw everything out, I've been able to open myself to possibilities others are not willing to see, let alone consider!

 

So, please. Don't think you've got me "figured out" and pigeon-hole me into something I'm not!

Roy I have read enough of your posts to know that you are not a pre-triber, my comment was about the person you were talking to. Lamad is a hard core pre-triber, I have offered the truth to him several times, but he won't listen. I hold a lot of the same beliefs concerning the end times as you do Roy, the only view of the end times that answers all my questions is the post-trib view. If the pre-tribers would admit that the first resurrection happens at the second coming like the Bible says, they would forget the left behind series and prepare for the second coming of the Lord.

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Enoch.

 

Oops! Sorry, guess I mis-read you. My bad! I didn't think that sounded like you! LOL! I apologize for my error.

[iamlamad]

 

Shalom, Enoch.

 

Roy, a pre-triber, has a habit of, when reading something in the Bible that don't fit their theology they just ignore it and try to convince everybody that what they just read means something other than what it says.

 

Actually, I'm NOT a "pre-tribber," although I am premillennial. I'm a POST-tribber, about as POST-trib as one can get! I believe that we are CURRENTLY in the tribulation and have been since 30 A.D! The Jews, including those who were followers of the true Messiah, were given a 40-year period to prepare for the worst, but it kicked into high gear in 70 A.D. and has been going on - off and on - since then! I believe that the "tribulation" (Greek: thlipsis = "pressure") is NOT the same thing as the seventieth Seven of Dani'el 9:27. Instead, I believe that the first half of the seventieth Seven was Yeshua`s "ministry" - His offer of the Kingdom to Isra'el - begun roughly in 26 A.D. and ended in 30 A.D. (a three-and-a-half-year period). The second half of the seventieth Seven will also be His offer of the Kingdom to Isra'el, but that won't begin UNTIL AFTER HE ARRIVES, and His arrival comes immediately after the end of the tribulation! I DO believe that the tribulation will crescendo before His arrival, but it is impossible (in my opinion) to pin it down to x number of years!

 

Secondly, I haven't found a thing in the Scriptures that doesn't fit into my "theology" ever since I kicked OUT my theology (which WAS pre-trib, by the way) and began re-buliding it from SCRATCH directly from the Scriptures back in 1977-8 when I was in my early 20's! I've learned quite a bit since then, and I'll admit I don't know it all, yet. There's much yet to learn, but by being able to throw everything out, I've been able to open myself to possibilities others are not willing to see, let alone consider!

 

So, please. Don't think you've got me "figured out" and pigeon-hole me into something I'm not!

Roy I have read enough of your posts to know that you are not a pre-triber, my comment was about the person you were talking to. Lamad is a hard core pre-triber, I have offered the truth to him several times, but he won't listen. I hold a lot of the same beliefs concerning the end times as you do Roy, the only view of the end times that answers all my questions is the post-trib view. If the pre-tribers would admit that the first resurrection happens at the second coming like the Bible says, they would forget the left behind series and prepare for the second coming of the Lord.

 

Ha ha ha! Enoch, you are absolutely comical at times! Yes, I am a hard core pretriber...you said that right! But WHY? It is because GOD is a hard core pretribber! The truth of scripture is pretrib. I had showed time and again that "first" resurrection means CHIEF resurrection, and that Jesus was the firstfruits of that same resurrection, but it is YOU who ignore truth. It is SO SIMPLE: there are two resurrections, one for the just and one for the unjust. Why is this difficult for you to understand? Anyone without preconceptions can undertstand that Jesus rose from the dead as the VERY FIRST to get a resurrection body. (that is what "first" of chief resurrection is all about. We know Jesus and Peter rose people from the dead, but NOT into resurrection bodies! There is NO TIMING GIVEN to the "first resurrection." That is something you assume, incorrectly. All the righteous will be a part of this first or chief resurrection, which started with Jesus.

 

If you would really study the rapture scriptures from Paul, the ONLY writer of the New Testament who received revelation on the rapture, you too would be pretrib. If you try to find the rapture of the church in other places, you and all others will end up confused (which is seems you are.) The rapture is NOT IN Revelation. Especially not in chapter 20. That is totally mans reasoning. The rapture is not found in the gospels; again man's reasoning. Anyone would get confused of they looked for the rapture of the church, during the Old Covenant scriptures! It is not there. Yes, there are gatherings, but NOt the rapture.

 

I have one question for you; are you really following this verse - or just ignoring it because it does not fit your theory?

 

^{Luk. 21:36} Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

 

ARe you praying to be counted worthy to escape? Or are you in rebellion to this verse because you cannot believe it?

 

Lamad

[ENOCH2010]

 

 

Shalom, Enoch.

 

Roy, a pre-triber, has a habit of, when reading something in the Bible that don't fit their theology they just ignore it and try to convince everybody that what they just read means something other than what it says.

 

Actually, I'm NOT a "pre-tribber," although I am premillennial. I'm a POST-tribber, about as POST-trib as one can get! I believe that we are CURRENTLY in the tribulation and have been since 30 A.D! The Jews, including those who were followers of the true Messiah, were given a 40-year period to prepare for the worst, but it kicked into high gear in 70 A.D. and has been going on - off and on - since then! I believe that the "tribulation" (Greek: thlipsis = "pressure") is NOT the same thing as the seventieth Seven of Dani'el 9:27. Instead, I believe that the first half of the seventieth Seven was Yeshua`s "ministry" - His offer of the Kingdom to Isra'el - begun roughly in 26 A.D. and ended in 30 A.D. (a three-and-a-half-year period). The second half of the seventieth Seven will also be His offer of the Kingdom to Isra'el, but that won't begin UNTIL AFTER HE ARRIVES, and His arrival comes immediately after the end of the tribulation! I DO believe that the tribulation will crescendo before His arrival, but it is impossible (in my opinion) to pin it down to x number of years!

 

Secondly, I haven't found a thing in the Scriptures that doesn't fit into my "theology" ever since I kicked OUT my theology (which WAS pre-trib, by the way) and began re-buliding it from SCRATCH directly from the Scriptures back in 1977-8 when I was in my early 20's! I've learned quite a bit since then, and I'll admit I don't know it all, yet. There's much yet to learn, but by being able to throw everything out, I've been able to open myself to possibilities others are not willing to see, let alone consider!

 

So, please. Don't think you've got me "figured out" and pigeon-hole me into something I'm not!

Roy I have read enough of your posts to know that you are not a pre-triber, my comment was about the person you were talking to. Lamad is a hard core pre-triber, I have offered the truth to him several times, but he won't listen. I hold a lot of the same beliefs concerning the end times as you do Roy, the only view of the end times that answers all my questions is the post-trib view. If the pre-tribers would admit that the first resurrection happens at the second coming like the Bible says, they would forget the left behind series and prepare for the second coming of the Lord.

 

Ha ha ha! Enoch, you are absolutely comical at times! Yes, I am a hard core pretriber...you said that right! But WHY? It is because GOD is a hard core pretribber! The truth of scripture is pretrib. I had showed time and again that "first" resurrection means CHIEF resurrection, and that Jesus was the firstfruits of that same resurrection, but it is YOU who ignore truth. It is SO SIMPLE: there are two resurrections, one for the just and one for the unjust. Why is this difficult for you to understand? Anyone without preconceptions can undertstand that Jesus rose from the dead as the VERY FIRST to get a resurrection body. (that is what "first" of chief resurrection is all about. We know Jesus and Peter rose people from the dead, but NOT into resurrection bodies! There is NO TIMING GIVEN to the "first resurrection." That is something you assume, incorrectly. All the righteous will be a part of this first or chief resurrection, which started with Jesus.

 

If you would really study the rapture scriptures from Paul, the ONLY writer of the New Testament who received revelation on the rapture, you too would be pretrib. If you try to find the rapture of the church in other places, you and all others will end up confused (which is seems you are.) The rapture is NOT IN Revelation. Especially not in chapter 20. That is totally mans reasoning. The rapture is not found in the gospels; again man's reasoning. Anyone would get confused of they looked for the rapture of the church, during the Old Covenant scriptures! It is not there. Yes, there are gatherings, but NOt the rapture.

 

I have one question for you; are you really following this verse - or just ignoring it because it does not fit your theory?

 

^{Luk. 21:36} Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

 

ARe you praying to be counted worthy to escape? Or are you in rebellion to this verse because you cannot believe it?

 

Lamad

 

Lamad  the verse you would do well to try and understand is Blessed and Holy are the ones included in the first resurrection, Rev.20 . 

 

The Bible says Only 2 resurrections of a massive amount of bodies remain in our future, they are both described in Rev. 20, the rapture has to be involved with the one called the first resurrection, not at some fantasy resurrection not mentioned in the Bible. It doesn't matter how much the pre-tribbers try and spin the Bible passages into something that tickles the ear, the fact remains, the first resurrection is when the rapture happens, not anytime pre-trib. And there can be only 1 first, not a dozen firsts and 1 second.   

[Montana Marv]

Enoch

 

Rev 3:30 - Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth.

 

And your Rapture happens after the trial that comes upon the whole earth.  This testing is for all who are on the earth, but we are kept from this time of trial.  We are not here.  We do not go though it.

 

Who are these who are on the earth at this time, unbelievers.  They are being tested. 

 

All do not go into the First Resurrection in one fell swoop as you believe.

 

Christ is the First fruit, Then the Church/Bride the next fruit,  Then those beheaded for their testimony during the 70th week follow.  Then those who are alive at the end of the 1000 years in which Christ rules many with a rod of iron, which do not follow Satan go into the First Resurrection last.  Death (the second resurrection) has no power over them.

 

The Second Resurrection follows.  Death and Hades are thrown into the Lake of Fire.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[iamlamad]

 

 

 

Shalom, Enoch.

 

Roy, a pre-triber, has a habit of, when reading something in the Bible that don't fit their theology they just ignore it and try to convince everybody that what they just read means something other than what it says.

 

Actually, I'm NOT a "pre-tribber," although I am premillennial. I'm a POST-tribber, about as POST-trib as one can get! I believe that we are CURRENTLY in the tribulation and have been since 30 A.D! The Jews, including those who were followers of the true Messiah, were given a 40-year period to prepare for the worst, but it kicked into high gear in 70 A.D. and has been going on - off and on - since then! I believe that the "tribulation" (Greek: thlipsis = "pressure") is NOT the same thing as the seventieth Seven of Dani'el 9:27. Instead, I believe that the first half of the seventieth Seven was Yeshua`s "ministry" - His offer of the Kingdom to Isra'el - begun roughly in 26 A.D. and ended in 30 A.D. (a three-and-a-half-year period). The second half of the seventieth Seven will also be His offer of the Kingdom to Isra'el, but that won't begin UNTIL AFTER HE ARRIVES, and His arrival comes immediately after the end of the tribulation! I DO believe that the tribulation will crescendo before His arrival, but it is impossible (in my opinion) to pin it down to x number of years!

 

Secondly, I haven't found a thing in the Scriptures that doesn't fit into my "theology" ever since I kicked OUT my theology (which WAS pre-trib, by the way) and began re-buliding it from SCRATCH directly from the Scriptures back in 1977-8 when I was in my early 20's! I've learned quite a bit since then, and I'll admit I don't know it all, yet. There's much yet to learn, but by being able to throw everything out, I've been able to open myself to possibilities others are not willing to see, let alone consider!

 

So, please. Don't think you've got me "figured out" and pigeon-hole me into something I'm not!

Roy I have read enough of your posts to know that you are not a pre-triber, my comment was about the person you were talking to. Lamad is a hard core pre-triber, I have offered the truth to him several times, but he won't listen. I hold a lot of the same beliefs concerning the end times as you do Roy, the only view of the end times that answers all my questions is the post-trib view. If the pre-tribers would admit that the first resurrection happens at the second coming like the Bible says, they would forget the left behind series and prepare for the second coming of the Lord.

 

Ha ha ha! Enoch, you are absolutely comical at times! Yes, I am a hard core pretriber...you said that right! But WHY? It is because GOD is a hard core pretribber! The truth of scripture is pretrib. I had showed time and again that "first" resurrection means CHIEF resurrection, and that Jesus was the firstfruits of that same resurrection, but it is YOU who ignore truth. It is SO SIMPLE: there are two resurrections, one for the just and one for the unjust. Why is this difficult for you to understand? Anyone without preconceptions can undertstand that Jesus rose from the dead as the VERY FIRST to get a resurrection body. (that is what "first" of chief resurrection is all about. We know Jesus and Peter rose people from the dead, but NOT into resurrection bodies! There is NO TIMING GIVEN to the "first resurrection." That is something you assume, incorrectly. All the righteous will be a part of this first or chief resurrection, which started with Jesus.

 

If you would really study the rapture scriptures from Paul, the ONLY writer of the New Testament who received revelation on the rapture, you too would be pretrib. If you try to find the rapture of the church in other places, you and all others will end up confused (which is seems you are.) The rapture is NOT IN Revelation. Especially not in chapter 20. That is totally mans reasoning. The rapture is not found in the gospels; again man's reasoning. Anyone would get confused of they looked for the rapture of the church, during the Old Covenant scriptures! It is not there. Yes, there are gatherings, but NOt the rapture.

 

I have one question for you; are you really following this verse - or just ignoring it because it does not fit your theory?

 

^{Luk. 21:36} Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

 

ARe you praying to be counted worthy to escape? Or are you in rebellion to this verse because you cannot believe it?

 

Lamad

 

Lamad  the verse you would do well to try and understand is Blessed and Holy are the ones included in the first resurrection, Rev.20 . 

 

The Bible says Only 2 resurrections of a massive amount of bodies remain in our future, they are both described in Rev. 20, the rapture has to be involved with the one called the first resurrection, not at some fantasy resurrection not mentioned in the Bible. It doesn't matter how much the pre-tribbers try and spin the Bible passages into something that tickles the ear, the fact remains, the first resurrection is when the rapture happens, not anytime pre-trib. And there can be only 1 first, not a dozen firsts and 1 second.   

 

Why is this so hard for you to understand? There is one resurrection for the righteous, and one for the unrighteous. That is as plain as day. What you are missing is that Jesus was the VERY FIRST ONE to be resurrected in the "first resurrection." Those that rose with Him from the Old Covenant were secondfruits, theirfruits, fourthfruits, etc. of the SAME first resurrection. Soon the Dead in Christ will become fruits of that same "first resurrection" just before the 70th week begins.  After that the 144,000 will become a part of it, around the midpoint of the 70th week. Then at the 7th vial, the Old Testament saints rise, and they also will be a part of the "first resurrection." Perhaps at the same time, those beheaded during the week will be resurrected. They too are a part of the "first resurrection." It is the resurrection for the righteous. But it comes in WAVES. Your mistake? Trying to pin down the "first resurrection" to a time. Jesus was the FIRST human in the "first resurrection."

 

There is no "fantasy" time for the rapture, there is PAUL's time. If you miss it, and get left behind, you have only yourself to blame, for Paul wrote it very clearly. A 5th grader could get it, because they would read with no preconceptions. Paul's rapture comes as the TRIGGER for the signs of the Day as is written at the 6th seal. John saw the raptured church in heaven shortely thereafter in Chapter 7. End of story, case closed. God is pretrib. If you are not, you are outside of what God believes.

 

Lamad

[ENOCH2010]

 

 

 

 

Shalom, Enoch.

 

Roy, a pre-triber, has a habit of, when reading something in the Bible that don't fit their theology they just ignore it and try to convince everybody that what they just read means something other than what it says.

 

Actually, I'm NOT a "pre-tribber," although I am premillennial. I'm a POST-tribber, about as POST-trib as one can get! I believe that we are CURRENTLY in the tribulation and have been since 30 A.D! The Jews, including those who were followers of the true Messiah, were given a 40-year period to prepare for the worst, but it kicked into high gear in 70 A.D. and has been going on - off and on - since then! I believe that the "tribulation" (Greek: thlipsis = "pressure") is NOT the same thing as the seventieth Seven of Dani'el 9:27. Instead, I believe that the first half of the seventieth Seven was Yeshua`s "ministry" - His offer of the Kingdom to Isra'el - begun roughly in 26 A.D. and ended in 30 A.D. (a three-and-a-half-year period). The second half of the seventieth Seven will also be His offer of the Kingdom to Isra'el, but that won't begin UNTIL AFTER HE ARRIVES, and His arrival comes immediately after the end of the tribulation! I DO believe that the tribulation will crescendo before His arrival, but it is impossible (in my opinion) to pin it down to x number of years!

 

Secondly, I haven't found a thing in the Scriptures that doesn't fit into my "theology" ever since I kicked OUT my theology (which WAS pre-trib, by the way) and began re-buliding it from SCRATCH directly from the Scriptures back in 1977-8 when I was in my early 20's! I've learned quite a bit since then, and I'll admit I don't know it all, yet. There's much yet to learn, but by being able to throw everything out, I've been able to open myself to possibilities others are not willing to see, let alone consider!

 

So, please. Don't think you've got me "figured out" and pigeon-hole me into something I'm not!

Roy I have read enough of your posts to know that you are not a pre-triber, my comment was about the person you were talking to. Lamad is a hard core pre-triber, I have offered the truth to him several times, but he won't listen. I hold a lot of the same beliefs concerning the end times as you do Roy, the only view of the end times that answers all my questions is the post-trib view. If the pre-tribers would admit that the first resurrection happens at the second coming like the Bible says, they would forget the left behind series and prepare for the second coming of the Lord.

 

Ha ha ha! Enoch, you are absolutely comical at times! Yes, I am a hard core pretriber...you said that right! But WHY? It is because GOD is a hard core pretribber! The truth of scripture is pretrib. I had showed time and again that "first" resurrection means CHIEF resurrection, and that Jesus was the firstfruits of that same resurrection, but it is YOU who ignore truth. It is SO SIMPLE: there are two resurrections, one for the just and one for the unjust. Why is this difficult for you to understand? Anyone without preconceptions can undertstand that Jesus rose from the dead as the VERY FIRST to get a resurrection body. (that is what "first" of chief resurrection is all about. We know Jesus and Peter rose people from the dead, but NOT into resurrection bodies! There is NO TIMING GIVEN to the "first resurrection." That is something you assume, incorrectly. All the righteous will be a part of this first or chief resurrection, which started with Jesus.

 

If you would really study the rapture scriptures from Paul, the ONLY writer of the New Testament who received revelation on the rapture, you too would be pretrib. If you try to find the rapture of the church in other places, you and all others will end up confused (which is seems you are.) The rapture is NOT IN Revelation. Especially not in chapter 20. That is totally mans reasoning. The rapture is not found in the gospels; again man's reasoning. Anyone would get confused of they looked for the rapture of the church, during the Old Covenant scriptures! It is not there. Yes, there are gatherings, but NOt the rapture.

 

I have one question for you; are you really following this verse - or just ignoring it because it does not fit your theory?

 

^{Luk. 21:36} Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

 

ARe you praying to be counted worthy to escape? Or are you in rebellion to this verse because you cannot believe it?

 

Lamad

 

Lamad  the verse you would do well to try and understand is Blessed and Holy are the ones included in the first resurrection, Rev.20 . 

 

The Bible says Only 2 resurrections of a massive amount of bodies remain in our future, they are both described in Rev. 20, the rapture has to be involved with the one called the first resurrection, not at some fantasy resurrection not mentioned in the Bible. It doesn't matter how much the pre-tribbers try and spin the Bible passages into something that tickles the ear, the fact remains, the first resurrection is when the rapture happens, not anytime pre-trib. And there can be only 1 first, not a dozen firsts and 1 second.   

 

Why is this so hard for you to understand? There is one resurrection for the righteous, and one for the unrighteous. That is as plain as day. What you are missing is that Jesus was the VERY FIRST ONE to be resurrected in the "first resurrection." Those that rose with Him from the Old Covenant were secondfruits, theirfruits, fourthfruits, etc. of the SAME first resurrection. Soon the Dead in Christ will become fruits of that same "first resurrection" just before the 70th week begins.  After that the 144,000 will become a part of it, around the midpoint of the 70th week. Then at the 7th vial, the Old Testament saints rise, and they also will be a part of the "first resurrection." Perhaps at the same time, those beheaded during the week will be resurrected. They too are a part of the "first resurrection." It is the resurrection for the righteous. But it comes in WAVES. Your mistake? Trying to pin down the "first resurrection" to a time. Jesus was the FIRST human in the "first resurrection."

 

There is no "fantasy" time for the rapture, there is PAUL's time. If you miss it, and get left behind, you have only yourself to blame, for Paul wrote it very clearly. A 5th grader could get it, because they would read with no preconceptions. Paul's rapture comes as the TRIGGER for the signs of the Day as is written at the 6th seal. John saw the raptured church in heaven shortely thereafter in Chapter 7. End of story, case closed. God is pretrib. If you are not, you are outside of what God believes.

 

Lamad

 

The fantasy you are claiming isn't the rapture Lamad. The fantasy is that there will be a dozen or so first resurrections when the Bible says there will be only 1 and the Bible plainly says it will be at the second coming of the Lord. If the pre-tribbers would receive the Bible for what it says, not for what they wish it said, there wouldn't be so much confusion coming from the pulpit.