Matthew 24:29-31, is this the rapture or second coming or both?

[iamlamad]

 

 

Why do you continue to twist my words? Do you ENJOY putting someone else down, or what? I didn't say that God our Father does not have a home, nor did I say that Yeshua` went nowhere! What I said was that the New Jerusalem IS our Father's house, and that THAT is where Yeshua` told His disciples He was going! Why is that so hard for you to grasp?

 

Secondly, read whatever testimonies you would like, BUT TAKE THEM WITH A GRAIN OF SALT! They are the words of human beings, and no matter how well-intentioned, human beings MAKE MISTAKES! It's much better to take the context of passages of Scripture than to pit people's testimonies against the Scriptures! In the final analysis, "let God be true and EVERY MAN A LIAR!" Do you think those words were said idly? "Oh, it's just a figure of speech." NO! We are to take God's Word over ANY testimony we read or hear!

Notice what you wrote a while back: 

 

"So, the heaven (Hebrew: shaamayim = skies) and the heaven of heavens (Hebrew: uwshmeey hashaamayim = and the sky of the skies or outer space) cannot contain Him; so, where is this abode of God you are talking about? It DOESN'T EXIST!"

 

I guess there is really not much you and I agree on concerning End times. Did you stop to consider that God is in three parts as we are in three parts: body, soul and spirit. It is the SPIRIT of God that is everywhere. I have not found one verse anywhere where God the Father is EVER off this throne. It seems when He is seen, He is always sitting on the throne. Where is that throne? I think we both agree, it is in the New Jerusalem. But here is where we may disagree. WHERE is the New Jerusalem?

 

 You seem to think it is floating by itself somewhere in outer space, and I think it is on a planet. But the truth is, we don't know for sure, because God never told us.   I guess you did not read my post either. Personal testimony is FINE if it agrees with the word of God.  Remember, Peter gave His personal testimony at the 1st Jerusalem conference, and it was enough to convince the rest.  Many times, though, personal testimony goes beyond scripture, and tells us things that the bible does not cover. Should we ignore everything from personal testimony that the bible is silent about? An example would be people seeing their pets in heaven.   By the way, I don't EVER "pit people's testimonies against the scriptures." But when they fit well with the scriptures, I see no reason to ignore them. If I have two different testimonies that tell me heaven is a planet, and this does not contridict the bible, I choose to believe it. After all, the bible does say, let everything be established with two or three witnesses. I know of two that tells me heaven is a planet. However, the bible is SILENT here. All we know is there is a New Jerusalem somewhere. That is as far as the bible goes. It is not a life or death matter anyway; one day we will see it will out own eyes.

 

Lamad

Edited August 15, 2013 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

 

 

I have yet to have a post-tribber explain HOW they will get to the marriage supper. One told me the supper would be on the earth..........WRONG! Anyone got any ideas?  lamad

I seldom deal with questions like this, becuase I freely admit that I am intimidated by the symbolism and visions of Revelation. I beleive the timeline is sorted out without having to consult the book of Revelation.

However, breaking my tradition, I am looking at Rev 19.

There it appears, that the tribulation has transpired and the judgement of God on the world has begun:

  “Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God; 2BECAUSE HIS JUDGMENTS ARE TRUE AND RIGHTEOUS; for He has judged the great harlot who was corrupting the earth with her immorality, and HE HAS AVENGED THE BLOOD OF HIS BOND-SERVANTS ON HER.” 3And a second time they said, “Hallelujah! HER SMOKE RISES UP FOREVER AND EVER.”

Then it talks about the Marriage of the Lamb:

    7“Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready.” 8It was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.

 

 

11And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. 12His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. 13He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses. 15From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. 16And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

      17Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds which fly in midheaven, “Come, assemble for the great supper of God, 18so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them and the flesh of all men, both free men and slaves, and small and great.”

      19And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.

 

Then it goes on to describe what appears to be the coming of Christ.

So there,  might we be seeing a sequence like this:

Tribulation - God's Judgement - rapture - marriage - return of Christ with His bride

 

I guess I do not understand the question:

 

"HOW they will get to the marriage supper?"

 

Is there some reason why they cannot go in a rapture after the trib, and before His return? Or is there something that firmly establishes the supper as during the trib or before? 

 

Sorry, Omegaman, I seem to have missed this post. Maybe there is a good reason: can you FIND a rapture after the trib? I find only a HINT of one: those that were beheaded shown to us in chapter 20. I do not believe they are there only is spirit form, and must wait a thousand years to get their bodies! So there must have been a rapture/resurrection for THEM sometime, only JOhn did not show it too us. I believe the Old Testament saints rise on at the 7th vial, the last 24 hour day of the 70th week. So it is possible the tribulation saints will all be resurrected then too. But it can only be a guess, for there is no scripture for it - only a hint.

 

My point was, posttribbers seem to think they will be caught up as Jesus is coming down, and then will "escort" Jesus on down to the planet, therefore MISSING the marriage and supper which is in heaven. Posttribbers, if I have missed something here about posttrib belief, please jump in and show me the error of my thinking.

 

As for judgment, I am conviced in Rev. 19, the judgment is past tense, as in FINISHED, as in the 70th week is finished. But there is more judgment to come: the battle of Armageddon, the parable of the tares, and the sheep and goat judgment.

 

"Tribulation - God's Judgement - rapture - marriage - return of Christ with His bride"

 

Cute how you slipped in "rapture." Where do you find that in Rev. 19?

 

 

Lamad

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Lamad.

 

 

 

 

Why do you continue to twist my words? Do you ENJOY putting someone else down, or what? I didn't say that God our Father does not have a home, nor did I say that Yeshua` went nowhere! What I said was that the New Jerusalem IS our Father's house, and that THAT is where Yeshua` told His disciples He was going! Why is that so hard for you to grasp?

 

Secondly, read whatever testimonies you would like, BUT TAKE THEM WITH A GRAIN OF SALT! They are the words of human beings, and no matter how well-intentioned, human beings MAKE MISTAKES! It's much better to take the context of passages of Scripture than to pit people's testimonies against the Scriptures! In the final analysis, "let God be true and EVERY MAN A LIAR!" Do you think those words were said idly? "Oh, it's just a figure of speech." NO! We are to take God's Word over ANY testimony we read or hear!

Notice what you wrote a while back: 

 

"So, the heaven (Hebrew: shaamayim = skies) and the heaven of heavens (Hebrew: uwshmeey hashaamayim = and the sky of the skies or outer space) cannot contain Him; so, where is this abode of God you are talking about? It DOESN'T EXIST!"

 

I guess there is really not much you and I agree on concerning End times. Did you stop to consider that God is in three parts as we are in three parts: body, soul and spirit. It is the SPIRIT of God that is everywhere. I have not found one verse anywhere where God the Father is EVER off this throne. It seems when He is seen, He is always sitting on the throne. Where is that throne? I think we both agree, it is in the New Jerusalem. But here is where we may disagree. WHERE is the New Jerusalem?

 

 You seem to think it is floating by itself somewhere in outer space, and I think it is on a planet. But the truth is, we don't know for sure, because God never told us.   I guess you did not read my post either. Personal testimony is FINE if it agrees with the word of God.  Remember, Peter gave His personal testimony at the 1st Jerusalem conference, and it was enough to convince the rest.  Many times, though, personal testimony goes beyond scripture, and tells us things that the bible does not cover. Should we ignore everything from personal testimony that the bible is silent about? An example would be people seeing their pets in heaven.   By the way, I don't EVER "pit people's testimonies against the scriptures." But when they fit well with the scriptures, I see no reason to ignore them. If I have two different testimonies that tell me heaven is a planet, and this does not contridict the bible, I choose to believe it. After all, the bible does say, let everything be established with two or three witnesses. I know of two that tells me heaven is a planet. However, the bible is SILENT here. All we know is there is a New Jerusalem somewhere. That is as far as the bible goes. It is not a life or death matter anyway; one day we will see it will out own eyes.

 

Lamad

 

 

Apparently, there's a bit of a miscommunication. It's on my part, too, I'll add, because you obviously have the wrong idea of what I'm saying. (See? Human beings DO make mistakes!) Yes, God has a HOUSE; no, it does not contain Him! Therefore, He does not have an ABODE! He cannot abide there anymore than Solomon recognized that the Temple could contain Him. The house is not for Him; it is for His children!

 

Look, there's a practical reason for the New Jerusalem's construction being in space. Each of the foundations that are listed are generally not transparent on earth. Why not? Because they are a compound of crystals in a loose matrix that do not allow light to pass completely through. However, we are told that the city is at least translucent, allowing most of the light within to shine through it's walls and foundations because we are told that it glows with the light of God! Crystals grow best when not subjected to the pressures associated with gravity. In space, a sheet of metal can be formed into one single crystal such that the entire crystal has the same basic structure as a simple crystal only with many more atoms in the recurring pattern of crystal. It takes time, consistent heat, and constant force to form such a crystal on the surface of the earth. That's why the process of making silicon wafers is so expensive, and that's not even counting the doping, oxidation and etching processes to create microprocessor chips.

 

Furthermore, this city is HUGE! 1,500 miles is the distance from my home here in the Tampa Bay area in Florida to Minneapolis, Minnesota, and that's just the distance from one corner of the city to the other corner of the city on the same wall! The diagonal distance is much greater! Because the city is said to be a Park (Hebrew: Pardeec; Greek: Paradeisos) of Trees or an Orchard, the majority of the inside of the city is lush and green all interconnected with this street of gold and the river that flows throughout the city three-dimensionally! Inside the city, it may SEEM like one is on another planet! However, the ecosystem of the city is SELF-CONTAINED while it is under construction! It's frankly NOT READY, YET!

 

When it is ready, it will descend to the New Earth and its ecosystem will combine with that of the New Earth. THAT is when we are told that the gates will always stand open!

Furthermore, IF it was on another planet, how far away is the planet? How long will it take for it to get here? We only have between 1000 years and 1300 years before the New Earth is created. Would that be enough time for it to arrive? That's another reason why I believe that it's in space, already en route to Earth.

 

I don't have a problem with personal testimony, either, except for the fact that it opens up the possibility of contradicting what the Scriptures say. You mention the "bible" several times above, but I find that it may be indicative that you will capitalize "God the Father," and the "Holy SPIRIT" but not the "Bible!" If it is God's Word, then it should be capitalized as much as His Titles or His Name would be! If you treat the "Book of books" as just another book, then you will be far more likely to take personal testimony to a level that equals or even exceeds that of the Bible itself! All I'm asking is for you, please, be careful with personal testimony and weigh it carefully against what the Bible DOES say to be sure that it doesn't contradict it.

[iamlamad]

Shalom, Lamad.

 

 

 

 

Why do you continue to twist my words? Do you ENJOY putting someone else down, or what? I didn't say that God our Father does not have a home, nor did I say that Yeshua` went nowhere! What I said was that the New Jerusalem IS our Father's house, and that THAT is where Yeshua` told His disciples He was going! Why is that so hard for you to grasp?

 

Secondly, read whatever testimonies you would like, BUT TAKE THEM WITH A GRAIN OF SALT! They are the words of human beings, and no matter how well-intentioned, human beings MAKE MISTAKES! It's much better to take the context of passages of Scripture than to pit people's testimonies against the Scriptures! In the final analysis, "let God be true and EVERY MAN A LIAR!" Do you think those words were said idly? "Oh, it's just a figure of speech." NO! We are to take God's Word over ANY testimony we read or hear!

Notice what you wrote a while back: 

 

"So, the heaven (Hebrew: shaamayim = skies) and the heaven of heavens (Hebrew: uwshmeey hashaamayim = and the sky of the skies or outer space) cannot contain Him; so, where is this abode of God you are talking about? It DOESN'T EXIST!"

 

I guess there is really not much you and I agree on concerning End times. Did you stop to consider that God is in three parts as we are in three parts: body, soul and spirit. It is the SPIRIT of God that is everywhere. I have not found one verse anywhere where God the Father is EVER off this throne. It seems when He is seen, He is always sitting on the throne. Where is that throne? I think we both agree, it is in the New Jerusalem. But here is where we may disagree. WHERE is the New Jerusalem?

 

 You seem to think it is floating by itself somewhere in outer space, and I think it is on a planet. But the truth is, we don't know for sure, because God never told us.   I guess you did not read my post either. Personal testimony is FINE if it agrees with the word of God.  Remember, Peter gave His personal testimony at the 1st Jerusalem conference, and it was enough to convince the rest.  Many times, though, personal testimony goes beyond scripture, and tells us things that the bible does not cover. Should we ignore everything from personal testimony that the bible is silent about? An example would be people seeing their pets in heaven.   By the way, I don't EVER "pit people's testimonies against the scriptures." But when they fit well with the scriptures, I see no reason to ignore them. If I have two different testimonies that tell me heaven is a planet, and this does not contridict the bible, I choose to believe it. After all, the bible does say, let everything be established with two or three witnesses. I know of two that tells me heaven is a planet. However, the bible is SILENT here. All we know is there is a New Jerusalem somewhere. That is as far as the bible goes. It is not a life or death matter anyway; one day we will see it will out own eyes.

 

Lamad

 

 

Apparently, there's a bit of a miscommunication. It's on my part, too, I'll add, because you obviously have the wrong idea of what I'm saying. (See? Human beings DO make mistakes!) Yes, God has a HOUSE; no, it does not contain Him! Therefore, He does not have an ABODE! He cannot abide there anymore than Solomon recognized that the Temple could contain Him. The house is not for Him; it is for His children!

 

Look, there's a practical reason for the New Jerusalem's construction being in space. Each of the foundations that are listed are generally not transparent on earth. Why not? Because they are a compound of crystals in a loose matrix that do not allow light to pass completely through. However, we are told that the city is at least translucent, allowing most of the light within to shine through it's walls and foundations because we are told that it glows with the light of God! Crystals grow best when not subjected to the pressures associated with gravity. In space, a sheet of metal can be formed into one single crystal such that the entire crystal has the same basic structure as a simple crystal only with many more atoms in the recurring pattern of crystal. It takes time, consistent heat, and constant force to form such a crystal on the surface of the earth. That's why the process of making silicon wafers is so expensive, and that's not even counting the doping, oxidation and etching processes to create microprocessor chips.

 

Furthermore, this city is HUGE! 1,500 miles is the distance from my home here in the Tampa Bay area in Florida to Minneapolis, Minnesota, and that's just the distance from one corner of the city to the other corner of the city on the same wall! The diagonal distance is much greater! Because the city is said to be a Park (Hebrew: Pardeec; Greek: Paradeisos) of Trees or an Orchard, the majority of the inside of the city is lush and green all interconnected with this street of gold and the river that flows throughout the city three-dimensionally! Inside the city, it may SEEM like one is on another planet! However, the ecosystem of the city is SELF-CONTAINED while it is under construction! It's frankly NOT READY, YET!

 

When it is ready, it will descend to the New Earth and its ecosystem will combine with that of the New Earth. THAT is when we are told that the gates will always stand open!

Furthermore, IF it was on another planet, how far away is the planet? How long will it take for it to get here? We only have between 1000 years and 1300 years before the New Earth is created. Would that be enough time for it to arrive? That's another reason why I believe that it's in space, already en route to Earth.

 

I don't have a problem with personal testimony, either, except for the fact that it opens up the possibility of contradicting what the Scriptures say. You mention the "bible" several times above, but I find that it may be indicative that you will capitalize "God the Father," and the "Holy SPIRIT" but not the "Bible!" If it is God's Word, then it should be capitalized as much as His Titles or His Name would be! If you treat the "Book of books" as just another book, then you will be far more likely to take personal testimony to a level that equals or even exceeds that of the Bible itself! All I'm asking is for you, please, be careful with personal testimony and weigh it carefully against what the Bible DOES say to be sure that it doesn't contradict it.

Ha ha! You are thinking in terms of the three dimensions we know of. The spiritual is in a different dimension. However far away the 3rd heaven is, travel there seems to take only seconds or minutes. As Jessie Duplantis put it, He was Texas get smaller and smaller, then the US get smaller and smaller, then the world get smaller and smaller and soon (I am guessing seconds) was out of our solar system. It seemed to him that he was on his natural body, for in heaven he had the same suit on. Others who have gone by spirit say that in one instant, it seemed as if they were there. One man was praying, and heard the worlds, "come up here." He looked up and saw Jesus, and it seemed instantly He was in heaven. Therefore I don't think we need to even consider any kind of time as we know it, for the City to arrive here.

 

As for contridicting scripture, did you ever notice what Paul wrote?

 

1 Corinthians 14:29

Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge.

 

What are we to judge? Of course, if the prophet is speaking in agreement with the word of God. I think we must do that with every book we read also. For example, I have read a lot of books about the book of Revelation, where much of it was simply wrong; only man's theories that did not fit the scriptures.  There was a very well known lady here in Tulsa for three days, speaking on Revelation. She had memorized the book years ago. I wanted to go, but my own church had special meetings at the time. So I found some Youtube videos of her and listened...for a while. I searched youtube for "Marilyn Hickey revelation". It did not take me long to realize I did not miss much in missing her three days of teaching.  Thanks. I ALWAYS judge carefully what I read by the bible. I realize the word of God is contained in the bible, but the bible is only paper with words. The bible will just collect dust uniess it is picked up and read! It will do no one any good at all if it just collects dust. It will not bring salvation, healing, or anything else unless the words get off the written page and into a human's heart. A while ago, I heard a preacher tell the people, "put your bible on the floor, and stand on it." He did the same thing. Then he led the people in a confession about standing on the word of God, no matter what circumstances are being faced. I found out later, some people would not follow his lead. After, someone ask me how I felt about it.  Someone would get beheaded in a Muslim country for standing on a Koran! I value the word of God VERY HIGHLY and strive to keep every word I speak in line with what God says about me in the bible. But on the other hand, it does not bother me at all to mark in my bible, or thow away a bible that is worn out.

 

I personally do not believe the New Jerusalem will descend down on this planet. A city 1500 miles cubed would seem too large for this planet! I expect the new earth to be much larger! On the other hand, what if the new earth is the current planet of heaven? New Jerusalem is already on that planet!  Just a thought.

 

I am not sure I agree with you. As I said before, it seems every time God our Father is seen, He is always seen on the throne in heaven. I would therefore consider the throne as God's eternal home. Jesus ascended to be at the father's right hand, so He too as there. But on the other hand, it seems God does not have a palace or mansion or home of any kind: His home is the throne!

 

Lamad

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Lamad.

 

 

Shalom, Lamad.

 

 

 

 

Why do you continue to twist my words? Do you ENJOY putting someone else down, or what? I didn't say that God our Father does not have a home, nor did I say that Yeshua` went nowhere! What I said was that the New Jerusalem IS our Father's house, and that THAT is where Yeshua` told His disciples He was going! Why is that so hard for you to grasp?

 

Secondly, read whatever testimonies you would like, BUT TAKE THEM WITH A GRAIN OF SALT! They are the words of human beings, and no matter how well-intentioned, human beings MAKE MISTAKES! It's much better to take the context of passages of Scripture than to pit people's testimonies against the Scriptures! In the final analysis, "let God be true and EVERY MAN A LIAR!" Do you think those words were said idly? "Oh, it's just a figure of speech." NO! We are to take God's Word over ANY testimony we read or hear!

Notice what you wrote a while back: 

 

"So, the heaven (Hebrew: shaamayim = skies) and the heaven of heavens (Hebrew: uwshmeey hashaamayim = and the sky of the skies or outer space) cannot contain Him; so, where is this abode of God you are talking about? It DOESN'T EXIST!"

 

I guess there is really not much you and I agree on concerning End times. Did you stop to consider that God is in three parts as we are in three parts: body, soul and spirit. It is the SPIRIT of God that is everywhere. I have not found one verse anywhere where God the Father is EVER off this throne. It seems when He is seen, He is always sitting on the throne. Where is that throne? I think we both agree, it is in the New Jerusalem. But here is where we may disagree. WHERE is the New Jerusalem?

 

 You seem to think it is floating by itself somewhere in outer space, and I think it is on a planet. But the truth is, we don't know for sure, because God never told us.   I guess you did not read my post either. Personal testimony is FINE if it agrees with the word of God.  Remember, Peter gave His personal testimony at the 1st Jerusalem conference, and it was enough to convince the rest.  Many times, though, personal testimony goes beyond scripture, and tells us things that the bible does not cover. Should we ignore everything from personal testimony that the bible is silent about? An example would be people seeing their pets in heaven.   By the way, I don't EVER "pit people's testimonies against the scriptures." But when they fit well with the scriptures, I see no reason to ignore them. If I have two different testimonies that tell me heaven is a planet, and this does not contridict the bible, I choose to believe it. After all, the bible does say, let everything be established with two or three witnesses. I know of two that tells me heaven is a planet. However, the bible is SILENT here. All we know is there is a New Jerusalem somewhere. That is as far as the bible goes. It is not a life or death matter anyway; one day we will see it will out own eyes.

 

Lamad

 

 

Apparently, there's a bit of a miscommunication. It's on my part, too, I'll add, because you obviously have the wrong idea of what I'm saying. (See? Human beings DO make mistakes!) Yes, God has a HOUSE; no, it does not contain Him! Therefore, He does not have an ABODE! He cannot abide there anymore than Solomon recognized that the Temple could contain Him. The house is not for Him; it is for His children!

 

Look, there's a practical reason for the New Jerusalem's construction being in space. Each of the foundations that are listed are generally not transparent on earth. Why not? Because they are a compound of crystals in a loose matrix that do not allow light to pass completely through. However, we are told that the city is at least translucent, allowing most of the light within to shine through it's walls and foundations because we are told that it glows with the light of God! Crystals grow best when not subjected to the pressures associated with gravity. In space, a sheet of metal can be formed into one single crystal such that the entire crystal has the same basic structure as a simple crystal only with many more atoms in the recurring pattern of crystal. It takes time, consistent heat, and constant force to form such a crystal on the surface of the earth. That's why the process of making silicon wafers is so expensive, and that's not even counting the doping, oxidation and etching processes to create microprocessor chips.

 

Furthermore, this city is HUGE! 1,500 miles is the distance from my home here in the Tampa Bay area in Florida to Minneapolis, Minnesota, and that's just the distance from one corner of the city to the other corner of the city on the same wall! The diagonal distance is much greater! Because the city is said to be a Park (Hebrew: Pardeec; Greek: Paradeisos) of Trees or an Orchard, the majority of the inside of the city is lush and green all interconnected with this street of gold and the river that flows throughout the city three-dimensionally! Inside the city, it may SEEM like one is on another planet! However, the ecosystem of the city is SELF-CONTAINED while it is under construction! It's frankly NOT READY, YET!

 

When it is ready, it will descend to the New Earth and its ecosystem will combine with that of the New Earth. THAT is when we are told that the gates will always stand open!

Furthermore, IF it was on another planet, how far away is the planet? How long will it take for it to get here? We only have between 1000 years and 1300 years before the New Earth is created. Would that be enough time for it to arrive? That's another reason why I believe that it's in space, already en route to Earth.

 

I don't have a problem with personal testimony, either, except for the fact that it opens up the possibility of contradicting what the Scriptures say. You mention the "bible" several times above, but I find that it may be indicative that you will capitalize "God the Father," and the "Holy SPIRIT" but not the "Bible!" If it is God's Word, then it should be capitalized as much as His Titles or His Name would be! If you treat the "Book of books" as just another book, then you will be far more likely to take personal testimony to a level that equals or even exceeds that of the Bible itself! All I'm asking is for you, please, be careful with personal testimony and weigh it carefully against what the Bible DOES say to be sure that it doesn't contradict it.

Ha ha! You are thinking in terms of the three dimensions we know of. The spiritual is in a different dimension. However far away the 3rd heaven is, travel there seems to take only seconds or minutes. As Jessie Duplantis put it, He was Texas get smaller and smaller, then the US get smaller and smaller, then the world get smaller and smaller and soon (I am guessing seconds) was out of our solar system. It seemed to him that he was on his natural body, for in heaven he had the same suit on. Others who have gone by spirit say that in one instant, it seemed as if they were there. One man was praying, and heard the worlds, "come up here." He looked up and saw Jesus, and it seemed instantly He was in heaven. Therefore I don't think we need to even consider any kind of time as we know it, for the City to arrive here.

 

As for contridicting scripture, did you ever notice what Paul wrote?

 

1 Corinthians 14:29

Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge.

 

What are we to judge? Of course, if the prophet is speaking in agreement with the word of God. I think we must do that with every book we read also. For example, I have read a lot of books about the book of Revelation, where much of it was simply wrong; only man's theories that did not fit the scriptures.  There was a very well known lady here in Tulsa for three days, speaking on Revelation. She had memorized the book years ago. I wanted to go, but my own church had special meetings at the time. So I found some Youtube videos of her and listened...for a while. I searched youtube for "Marilyn Hickey revelation". It did not take me long to realize I did not miss much in missing her three days of teaching.  Thanks. I ALWAYS judge carefully what I read by the bible. I realize the word of God is contained in the bible, but the bible is only paper with words. The bible will just collect dust uniess it is picked up and read! It will do no one any good at all if it just collects dust. It will not bring salvation, healing, or anything else unless the words get off the written page and into a human's heart. A while ago, I heard a preacher tell the people, "put your bible on the floor, and stand on it." He did the same thing. Then he led the people in a confession about standing on the word of God, no matter what circumstances are being faced. I found out later, some people would not follow his lead. After, someone ask me how I felt about it.  Someone would get beheaded in a Muslim country for standing on a Koran! I value the word of God VERY HIGHLY and strive to keep every word I speak in line with what God says about me in the bible. But on the other hand, it does not bother me at all to mark in my bible, or thow away a bible that is worn out.

 

I personally do not believe the New Jerusalem will descend down on this planet. A city 1500 miles cubed would seem too large for this planet! I expect the new earth to be much larger! On the other hand, what if the new earth is the current planet of heaven? New Jerusalem is already on that planet!  Just a thought.

 

I am not sure I agree with you. As I said before, it seems every time God our Father is seen, He is always seen on the throne in heaven. I would therefore consider the throne as God's eternal home. Jesus ascended to be at the father's right hand, so He too as there. But on the other hand, it seems God does not have a palace or mansion or home of any kind: His home is the throne!

 

Lamad

 

 

(Sigh.) Where does it say that the "spiritual is in another dimension?" What other dimensions do you experientially KNOW about?! Besides, I DO think about other dimensions; for instance, the fourth dimension is TIME! This is best understood in stop-action photography, such as is portrayed in certain commercials on TV. I'm thinking of the commercial that shows a series of pictures of a boy running into his mother's arms, talking about the data that is involved in capturing that moment of time. Each time the boy and his mother (and all the other objects in the scene) are shown, each has its own three dimensions PLUS the time that went by between those images.

 

I'm not ignorant of the THEORIES of other dimensions. I know that some have suggested a possibility of 26 dimensions to reality, but which ones affect OUR lives directly? Just the four! You CLAIM that the spiritual is another dimension, but what proof have you?! THERE IS NONE!!! It is PURE CONJECTURE!!!

 

The Bible (capitalized) is the "BOOK of books." It is the SUM of God's very words to mankind! It is God's WORD, and it is GOD'S Word! A book is just some words printed on paper and whether that paper is sewn or glued and bound with a cover or rolled up in a scroll, it is just a physical object. However, the Flag of the United States of America is just some dyed fabric sewn together, too! But, just as the Flag represents all of the ideals behind the Flag inherent in the symbol, so the Bible is the symbol of God's Word! In fact, it IS the Word of God, and deserves our respect, just as does the Flag because of the ideals and the sacrifices behind that Flag. So, I need to capitalize the Bible out of respect for the God whose Word it is! It deserves more respect and honor from us than the Koran receives from a Muslim!

 

Finally, you said, "I personally do not believe the New Jerusalem will descend down on this planet." And yet, we read this in God's Word:

 

 

Revelation 21:1-3

21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

KJV

    

And,...

 

Revelation 21:9-11

9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; ...

KJV

 

At this point, one must compare this passage with 2 Peter 3:3-13:

 

 

2 Peter 3:3-13

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

KJV

 

Therefore, just as the first earth and sky was not abandoned for a second earth but the second earth was made FROM the remnants of the first earth after the Flood, so the third earth will be made from the remnants of the second earth after the Fire. Then, notice that the wording of Revelation 21:1-3 and 9-11 are worded from the perspective of the New Earth! The city descends TO the New Earth, COMING down from the sky! And, God's tabernacle ("tent") will be WITH MEN, not the reverse! Thus, the natural understanding of this passage disagrees with your statement.

[ENOCH2010]

Roy, a pre-triber, has a habit of, when reading something in the Bible that don't fit their theology they just ignore it and try to convince everybody that what they just read means something other than what it says.

[Sanh]

Describe what you believe the following passage is, the rapture, second coming or both, and why you believe it.

Matthew 24:29-31 (KJV)

[29] Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

[30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

[31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

Those passages refer to the Judgment Day or the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ and there is no rapture that will ever transpire in the forthcoming days. By how deep or in what manner do you want us to get involved ourselves in discussing this issue?

Edited August 19, 2013 by Sanh

[iamlamad]

Shalom, Lamad.

 

 

Shalom, Lamad.

 

 

 

 

Why do you continue to twist my words? Do you ENJOY putting someone else down, or what? I didn't say that God our Father does not have a home, nor did I say that Yeshua` went nowhere! What I said was that the New Jerusalem IS our Father's house, and that THAT is where Yeshua` told His disciples He was going! Why is that so hard for you to grasp?

 

Secondly, read whatever testimonies you would like, BUT TAKE THEM WITH A GRAIN OF SALT! They are the words of human beings, and no matter how well-intentioned, human beings MAKE MISTAKES! It's much better to take the context of passages of Scripture than to pit people's testimonies against the Scriptures! In the final analysis, "let God be true and EVERY MAN A LIAR!" Do you think those words were said idly? "Oh, it's just a figure of speech." NO! We are to take God's Word over ANY testimony we read or hear!

Notice what you wrote a while back: 

 

"So, the heaven (Hebrew: shaamayim = skies) and the heaven of heavens (Hebrew: uwshmeey hashaamayim = and the sky of the skies or outer space) cannot contain Him; so, where is this abode of God you are talking about? It DOESN'T EXIST!"

 

I guess there is really not much you and I agree on concerning End times. Did you stop to consider that God is in three parts as we are in three parts: body, soul and spirit. It is the SPIRIT of God that is everywhere. I have not found one verse anywhere where God the Father is EVER off this throne. It seems when He is seen, He is always sitting on the throne. Where is that throne? I think we both agree, it is in the New Jerusalem. But here is where we may disagree. WHERE is the New Jerusalem?

 

 You seem to think it is floating by itself somewhere in outer space, and I think it is on a planet. But the truth is, we don't know for sure, because God never told us.   I guess you did not read my post either. Personal testimony is FINE if it agrees with the word of God.  Remember, Peter gave His personal testimony at the 1st Jerusalem conference, and it was enough to convince the rest.  Many times, though, personal testimony goes beyond scripture, and tells us things that the bible does not cover. Should we ignore everything from personal testimony that the bible is silent about? An example would be people seeing their pets in heaven.   By the way, I don't EVER "pit people's testimonies against the scriptures." But when they fit well with the scriptures, I see no reason to ignore them. If I have two different testimonies that tell me heaven is a planet, and this does not contridict the bible, I choose to believe it. After all, the bible does say, let everything be established with two or three witnesses. I know of two that tells me heaven is a planet. However, the bible is SILENT here. All we know is there is a New Jerusalem somewhere. That is as far as the bible goes. It is not a life or death matter anyway; one day we will see it will out own eyes.

 

Lamad

 

 

Apparently, there's a bit of a miscommunication. It's on my part, too, I'll add, because you obviously have the wrong idea of what I'm saying. (See? Human beings DO make mistakes!) Yes, God has a HOUSE; no, it does not contain Him! Therefore, He does not have an ABODE! He cannot abide there anymore than Solomon recognized that the Temple could contain Him. The house is not for Him; it is for His children!

 

Look, there's a practical reason for the New Jerusalem's construction being in space. Each of the foundations that are listed are generally not transparent on earth. Why not? Because they are a compound of crystals in a loose matrix that do not allow light to pass completely through. However, we are told that the city is at least translucent, allowing most of the light within to shine through it's walls and foundations because we are told that it glows with the light of God! Crystals grow best when not subjected to the pressures associated with gravity. In space, a sheet of metal can be formed into one single crystal such that the entire crystal has the same basic structure as a simple crystal only with many more atoms in the recurring pattern of crystal. It takes time, consistent heat, and constant force to form such a crystal on the surface of the earth. That's why the process of making silicon wafers is so expensive, and that's not even counting the doping, oxidation and etching processes to create microprocessor chips.

 

Furthermore, this city is HUGE! 1,500 miles is the distance from my home here in the Tampa Bay area in Florida to Minneapolis, Minnesota, and that's just the distance from one corner of the city to the other corner of the city on the same wall! The diagonal distance is much greater! Because the city is said to be a Park (Hebrew: Pardeec; Greek: Paradeisos) of Trees or an Orchard, the majority of the inside of the city is lush and green all interconnected with this street of gold and the river that flows throughout the city three-dimensionally! Inside the city, it may SEEM like one is on another planet! However, the ecosystem of the city is SELF-CONTAINED while it is under construction! It's frankly NOT READY, YET!

 

When it is ready, it will descend to the New Earth and its ecosystem will combine with that of the New Earth. THAT is when we are told that the gates will always stand open!

Furthermore, IF it was on another planet, how far away is the planet? How long will it take for it to get here? We only have between 1000 years and 1300 years before the New Earth is created. Would that be enough time for it to arrive? That's another reason why I believe that it's in space, already en route to Earth.

 

I don't have a problem with personal testimony, either, except for the fact that it opens up the possibility of contradicting what the Scriptures say. You mention the "bible" several times above, but I find that it may be indicative that you will capitalize "God the Father," and the "Holy SPIRIT" but not the "Bible!" If it is God's Word, then it should be capitalized as much as His Titles or His Name would be! If you treat the "Book of books" as just another book, then you will be far more likely to take personal testimony to a level that equals or even exceeds that of the Bible itself! All I'm asking is for you, please, be careful with personal testimony and weigh it carefully against what the Bible DOES say to be sure that it doesn't contradict it.

Ha ha! You are thinking in terms of the three dimensions we know of. The spiritual is in a different dimension. However far away the 3rd heaven is, travel there seems to take only seconds or minutes. As Jessie Duplantis put it, He was Texas get smaller and smaller, then the US get smaller and smaller, then the world get smaller and smaller and soon (I am guessing seconds) was out of our solar system. It seemed to him that he was on his natural body, for in heaven he had the same suit on. Others who have gone by spirit say that in one instant, it seemed as if they were there. One man was praying, and heard the worlds, "come up here." He looked up and saw Jesus, and it seemed instantly He was in heaven. Therefore I don't think we need to even consider any kind of time as we know it, for the City to arrive here.

 

As for contridicting scripture, did you ever notice what Paul wrote?

 

1 Corinthians 14:29

Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge.

 

What are we to judge? Of course, if the prophet is speaking in agreement with the word of God. I think we must do that with every book we read also. For example, I have read a lot of books about the book of Revelation, where much of it was simply wrong; only man's theories that did not fit the scriptures.  There was a very well known lady here in Tulsa for three days, speaking on Revelation. She had memorized the book years ago. I wanted to go, but my own church had special meetings at the time. So I found some Youtube videos of her and listened...for a while. I searched youtube for "Marilyn Hickey revelation". It did not take me long to realize I did not miss much in missing her three days of teaching.  Thanks. I ALWAYS judge carefully what I read by the bible. I realize the word of God is contained in the bible, but the bible is only paper with words. The bible will just collect dust uniess it is picked up and read! It will do no one any good at all if it just collects dust. It will not bring salvation, healing, or anything else unless the words get off the written page and into a human's heart. A while ago, I heard a preacher tell the people, "put your bible on the floor, and stand on it." He did the same thing. Then he led the people in a confession about standing on the word of God, no matter what circumstances are being faced. I found out later, some people would not follow his lead. After, someone ask me how I felt about it.  Someone would get beheaded in a Muslim country for standing on a Koran! I value the word of God VERY HIGHLY and strive to keep every word I speak in line with what God says about me in the bible. But on the other hand, it does not bother me at all to mark in my bible, or thow away a bible that is worn out.

 

I personally do not believe the New Jerusalem will descend down on this planet. A city 1500 miles cubed would seem too large for this planet! I expect the new earth to be much larger! On the other hand, what if the new earth is the current planet of heaven? New Jerusalem is already on that planet!  Just a thought.

 

I am not sure I agree with you. As I said before, it seems every time God our Father is seen, He is always seen on the throne in heaven. I would therefore consider the throne as God's eternal home. Jesus ascended to be at the father's right hand, so He too as there. But on the other hand, it seems God does not have a palace or mansion or home of any kind: His home is the throne!

 

Lamad

 

 

(Sigh.) Where does it say that the "spiritual is in another dimension?" What other dimensions do you experientially KNOW about?! Besides, I DO think about other dimensions; for instance, the fourth dimension is TIME! This is best understood in stop-action photography, such as is portrayed in certain commercials on TV. I'm thinking of the commercial that shows a series of pictures of a boy running into his mother's arms, talking about the data that is involved in capturing that moment of time. Each time the boy and his mother (and all the other objects in the scene) are shown, each has its own three dimensions PLUS the time that went by between those images.

 

I'm not ignorant of the THEORIES of other dimensions. I know that some have suggested a possibility of 26 dimensions to reality, but which ones affect OUR lives directly? Just the four! You CLAIM that the spiritual is another dimension, but what proof have you?! THERE IS NONE!!! It is PURE CONJECTURE!!!

 

The Bible (capitalized) is the "BOOK of books." It is the SUM of God's very words to mankind! It is God's WORD, and it is GOD'S Word! A book is just some words printed on paper and whether that paper is sewn or glued and bound with a cover or rolled up in a scroll, it is just a physical object. However, the Flag of the United States of America is just some dyed fabric sewn together, too! But, just as the Flag represents all of the ideals behind the Flag inherent in the symbol, so the Bible is the symbol of God's Word! In fact, it IS the Word of God, and deserves our respect, just as does the Flag because of the ideals and the sacrifices behind that Flag. So, I need to capitalize the Bible out of respect for the God whose Word it is! It deserves more respect and honor from us than the Koran receives from a Muslim!

 

Finally, you said, "I personally do not believe the New Jerusalem will descend down on this planet." And yet, we read this in God's Word:

 

 

Revelation 21:1-3

21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

KJV

    

And,...

 

Revelation 21:9-11

9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; ...

KJV

 

At this point, one must compare this passage with 2 Peter 3:3-13:

 

 

2 Peter 3:3-13

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

KJV

 

Therefore, just as the first earth and sky was not abandoned for a second earth but the second earth was made FROM the remnants of the first earth after the Flood, so the third earth will be made from the remnants of the second earth after the Fire. Then, notice that the wording of Revelation 21:1-3 and 9-11 are worded from the perspective of the New Earth! The city descends TO the New Earth, COMING down from the sky! And, God's tabernacle ("tent") will be WITH MEN, not the reverse! Thus, the natural understanding of this passage disagrees with your statement.

I have been "in the Spirit." I know it is different. If it were the same dimension, we would be able to see angels and demons - but we cannot. But when we are there, "in the Spirit," we see in that dimension. You are right, time is another dimension.

 

Yes, most certainly the New Jerusalem will descend, but NOT ON THIS PLANET! Did you not read verse one of that chapter? This planet passes away.

 

so the third earth will be made from the remnants of the second earth after the Fire.

 

what proof have you?! THERE IS NONE!!! It is PURE CONJECTURE!!!   When it says passed away, and we get a NEW earth, I tend to believe it. But, again we may be disagreeing on TIME.

 

WHEN will Peter's fire destroy this planet? I think during the 70th week - before the Millennial reign of Christ. When did John see the new city? AFTER the Millennial reign.

 

Lamad

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Enoch.

 

Roy, a pre-triber, has a habit of, when reading something in the Bible that don't fit their theology they just ignore it and try to convince everybody that what they just read means something other than what it says.

 

Actually, I'm NOT a "pre-tribber," although I am premillennial. I'm a POST-tribber, about as POST-trib as one can get! I believe that we are CURRENTLY in the tribulation and have been since 30 A.D! The Jews, including those who were followers of the true Messiah, were given a 40-year period to prepare for the worst, but it kicked into high gear in 70 A.D. and has been going on - off and on - since then! I believe that the "tribulation" (Greek: thlipsis = "pressure") is NOT the same thing as the seventieth Seven of Dani'el 9:27. Instead, I believe that the first half of the seventieth Seven was Yeshua`s "ministry" - His offer of the Kingdom to Isra'el - begun roughly in 26 A.D. and ended in 30 A.D. (a three-and-a-half-year period). The second half of the seventieth Seven will also be His offer of the Kingdom to Isra'el, but that won't begin UNTIL AFTER HE ARRIVES, and His arrival comes immediately after the end of the tribulation! I DO believe that the tribulation will crescendo before His arrival, but it is impossible (in my opinion) to pin it down to x number of years!

 

Secondly, I haven't found a thing in the Scriptures that doesn't fit into my "theology" ever since I kicked OUT my theology (which WAS pre-trib, by the way) and began re-buliding it from SCRATCH directly from the Scriptures back in 1977-8 when I was in my early 20's! I've learned quite a bit since then, and I'll admit I don't know it all, yet. There's much yet to learn, but by being able to throw everything out, I've been able to open myself to possibilities others are not willing to see, let alone consider!

 

So, please. Don't think you've got me "figured out" and pigeon-hole me into something I'm not!

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Sanh.

 

 

Describe what you believe the following passage is, the rapture, second coming or both, and why you believe it.

Matthew 24:29-31 (KJV)
[29] Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
[30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
[31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

Those passages refer to the Judgment Day or the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ and there is no rapture that will ever transpire in the forthcoming days. By how deep or in what manner do you want us to get involved ourselves in discussing this issue?

 

 

I tend to agree with you with regard to it being about the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ (the Master, Yeshua` the Messiah); HOWEVER, don't make the mistake of thinking that the Second Coming is the same thing as the Judgment Day. If one is thinking of the "Judgment Day" as being that Day of the LORD that is talked about in 2 Peter 3 and in Revelation 20:7-15, then that is yet a thousand years off. There will be judgment when the Messiah Yeshua` returns and begins to reign over His people as haMelekh Yisra'el - the King of Isra'el - but the "Bema" and the judgments associated with His reign as King will continue THROUGHOUT that thousand-year period!