Everlasting Covenant

[GoldenEagle]

You are all right. But what I don't understand is this: God made an everlasting covenant with Abraham and his descendants, viz. the Jews, promising that He shall be their God forever (Gen. 17:7). Yet according to Paul's epistle to the Hebrews, God is no longer the God of the Jews but that of the Christians. A Jew would say the Christian belief is false and vice versa. Hence He can't be the God of both types of believers as a Jew is not Christian and a Christian not a Jew. So whether Paul refers to the covenant with Abraham or Moses, His relation to mankind changed (from the Christian viewpoint).

And before Jesus His devotees assumed that He is their God and will be with them forever but with Christ that was altered. How sure can we be that this won't happen again or already has happened?

Which passage in Hebrews are you referring to Hippias?

I would say that God is still the God of the Jews. God has not changed his mind on the matter - God chose Israel as His people. Christians are grafted into the promise made to Abraham. Many Jews have rejected God's Messiah - Jesus Christ. God does not break his promises. Would you agree?

See this site for more: http://www.hebrew4ch...ael/israel.html

This graph gives us a good picture of where Jews and Gentiles relate to the Church. Grafted-in Gentiles and Remnant Jews are saved by Jesus Christ. Ethnic Jews are ethnic Israel and Gentiles are the rest of those who are not saved.

Picture of grafting...

God bless,

GE

[Guest shiloh357]

You are all right. But what I don't understand is this: God made an everlasting covenant with Abraham and his descendants, viz. the Jews, promising that He shall be their God forever (Gen. 17:7). Yet according to Paul's epistle to the Hebrews, God is no longer the God of the Jews but that of the Christians.

No, it doesn't. God's Covenant with Abraham in Gen. is still in force and has never been rescinded. Furthermore, there is nowhere in the book of Hebrews that says that God is no longer the God of the Jews. I don't know where you are coming up with that, but it isn't there. The rest of your post is based off of that false premise.

And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your offspring after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your offspring after you. And I will give to you and to your offspring after you the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession, and I will be their God." And God said to Abraham, "As for you, you shall keep my covenant, you and your offspring after you throughout their generations.

(Gen 17:7-9)

God never breaks His promises or goes back on His word. The problem lies in how you are reading and interpreting the text.

Thus says the LORD, who gives the sun for light by day and the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night, who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar-- the LORD of hosts is his name: "If this fixed order departs from before me, declares the LORD, then shall the offspring of Israel cease from being a nation before me forever."

(Jer 31:35-36)

Last I checked, the fixed order of the moon and stars is still operating in the heavens. So, God has not cast them off from being His nation/people. Becareful that you don't end up assaulting God's integrity by claiming He has decided to rescind what He said He wouldn't rescind.

[gdemoss]

An everlasting covenant that is broken is a broken covenant. A broken covenant is of no use. It is everlasting as in it would never be retracted. Consider that the same God who said "I will never leave you nor forsake you" also wrote out and gave a bill of divorcement to the northern kingdom of covenant breakers (Jer 3:8). Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. Prove your own selves and see if you be in the faith and not of a reprobate mind that causes you to do that which is not convenient.

I encourage you to read the Hebrews text closely and prayerfully. Their was nothing wrong with Gods covenant with Israel. The covenant itself was faultless. It says he found fault with them not the covenant. They could keep it but did not, otherwise God would be unrighteous for punishing someone for not doing something they could not do anyway. That is nonsense. They could but chose not to in unbelief. We are warned in Hebrews 4 about not doing the same though we be under a new covenant. But it is true that the new covenant is built on better promises. The promise of the Holy Spirit indwelling each of us as we are the temple of God as well as the promise of ruling and reigning with Christ 1000 years in glorified bodies! And not to mention the promise of internal inheritance...

Let us always remember:

Hbr 10:36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise

Take heed how you hear. Be of good cheer! God loves us.

An everlasting covenant that is broken is oxymonoric. That means, it was not everlasting to start with

Ciao

- viole

Great observation viole. The truth about the word 'everlasting' used here versus the modern understanding of everlasting must be understood in order receive what the text is saying. Here is a direct statement about the 'everlasting covenant' being broken.

Isa 24:5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.

About the word used here, Solomon also used it when he built the temple.

1Ki 8:13 I have surely built thee an house to dwell in, a settled place for thee to abide in for ever.

We can choose to seek to understand what is actually being said or we can simply reject what has been said based upon our own ideas of what we believe something is saying in an oxymoron way. Your call. I simply accept what I see and seek to understand what is truly being said.

Gary

[hippias]

shilo357, Golden Eagle and all:

My problem is thus (the following is from the Christian viewpoint, no offence to those of mosaic belief): With the beginning of the Christianity there happened something new and those of the seed of Abraham who did not change their views and worship of God no longer could claim to worship properly and and hold a truthful belief. The true belief is taught by Jesus in the New Testament (new because the old covenant was not faultless) which is by Jews not esteemed in the way desired by God. Hence I don't understand how the Christian God can still be regarded as the God of the Jews if they simply don't belief in Him? And this fact, that Jews are not Chrisitans hold different believes, was certainly present to God when He said to Abraham that He shall be his and his descendants' God for ever.

In any case I will review the Epistle to the Hebrews, it might very well be the case that I have misunderstood something in it. Yet the above still puzzles me.

P.S. @shilo357: To your remark about the order of the stars, sun and moon one might answer that the stars, though commonly called fixed, are not fixed but move and change their order, sometimes even at a speed that makes changes visible during the lifetime of a human being, if you look keen enough. Furthermore when Jesus died on the cross there was an three hour eclipse of the sun which by what is know today is only possible by heavy manipulation of the order of the solar system. So one could regard the prophecy as fulfilled by these facts, if one feel so inclined.

[Guest shiloh357]

My problem is thus (the following is from the Christian viewpoint, no offence to those of mosaic belief): With the beginning of the Christianity there happened something new and those of the seed of Abraham who did not change their views and worship of God no longer could claim to worship properly and and hold a truthful belief. The true belief is taught by Jesus in the New Testament (new because the old covenant was not faultless) which is by Jews not esteemed in the way desired by God. Hence I don't understand how the Christian God can still be regarded as the God of the Jews if they simply don't belief in Him? And this fact, that Jews are not Chrisitans hold different believes, was certainly present to God when He said to Abraham that He shall be his and his descendants' God for ever.

Note that your reasoning is based on what makes sense to YOU. You have erected a standard that requires the Jews to accept Jesus in order for God to be their God. The Bible erects no such standard. So the confusion lies with carnal reasoning and not with any implied internal inconsistencies in Scripture. God can be the God of whomever He chooses and and He doens't have make sure that it makes sense to you.

P.S. @shilo357: To your remark about the order of the stars, sun and moon one might answer that the stars, though commonly called fixed, are not fixed but move and change their order, sometimes even at a speed that makes changes visible during the lifetime of a human being, if you look keen enough. Furthermore when Jesus died on the cross there was an three hour eclipse of the sun which by what is know today is only possible by heavy manipulation of the order of the solar system. So one could regard the prophecy as fulfilled by these facts, if one feel so inclined.

Wrong. The stars have fixed order and that order is completely predictable. Astronomers would be unable to make scienific predictions unless there was a uniform and predictable order to the movement of the stars.

The three hour eclipse was supernatural event and God is able to manipulate nature to do as He pleases and still maintain the order of things. The order of the stars has not changed and thus God has not cast off Israel as his people.

[GoldenEagle]

P.S. @shilo357: To your remark about the order of the stars, sun and moon one might answer that the stars, though commonly called fixed, are not fixed but move and change their order, sometimes even at a speed that makes changes visible during the lifetime of a human being, if you look keen enough. Furthermore when Jesus died on the cross there was an three hour eclipse of the sun which by what is know today is only possible by heavy manipulation of the order of the solar system. So one could regard the prophecy as fulfilled by these facts, if one feel so inclined.

Wrong. The stars have fixed order and that order is completely predictable. Astronomers would be unable to make scienific predictions unless there was a uniform and predictable order to the movement of the stars.

The three hour eclipse was supernatural event and God is able to manipulate nature to do as He pleases and still maintain the order of things. The order of the stars has not changed and thus God has not cast off Israel as his people.

To add to the discussion and shed light on Shiloh's response...

Jeremiah 31:35-36

³⁵ Thus says the Lord,

Who gives the sun for a light by day,

The ordinances of the moon and the stars for a light by night,

Who disturbs the sea,

And its waves roar

(The Lord of hosts is His name):

³⁶ “If those ordinances depart

From before Me, says the Lord,

Then the seed of Israel shall also cease

From being a nation before Me forever.”

God bless,

GE

[GoldenEagle]

In any case I will review the Epistle to the Hebrews, it might very well be the case that I have misunderstood something in it. Yet the above still puzzles me.

See the following passage:

Hebrews 8:8-12 (Reference to Jeremiah 31:31-34)

A New Covenant

⁸ Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— ⁹ not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord. ¹⁰ For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. ¹¹ None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. ¹² For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

God bless,

GE

[GoldenEagle]

shilo357, Golden Eagle and all:

My problem is thus (the following is from the Christian viewpoint, no offence to those of mosaic belief): With the beginning of the Christianity there happened something new and those of the seed of Abraham who did not change their views and worship of God no longer could claim to worship properly and and hold a truthful belief. The true belief is taught by Jesus in the New Testament (new because the old covenant was not faultless) which is by Jews not esteemed in the way desired by God. Hence I don't understand how the Christian God can still be regarded as the God of the Jews if they simply don't belief in Him? And this fact, that Jews are not Chrisitans hold different believes, was certainly present to God when He said to Abraham that He shall be his and his descendants' God for ever.

Jehovah God is still the same right? I believe so. He revealed Himself to Abraham and chose for Himself a people (Israel) correct? That is what is evidenced in the Bible. Where in the Bible does it say that God has disowned Israel (Jews) completely? See Romans 11. Israel's (The Jews) rejection by God is not total (Rom. 11:1-10) nor is it final (Rom. 11:11-36).

Regarding this question in bold... Because a non-Christian rejects Jesus Christ is Jesus Christ no longer Messiah? Has God changed His name? Has God rejected His very own Nature? No I don't believe so.

Because many Jews have rejected God and His Messiah in Jesus Christ does that mean God is still not Himself? I would say no. God's promises and nature are the same.

God's covenant with Israel is everlasting. (Ez. 16:60-63)

Ezekiel 16:60-63

⁶⁰ “Nevertheless I will remember My covenant with you in the days of your youth, and I will establish an everlasting covenant with you. ⁶¹ Then you will remember your ways and be ashamed, when you receive your older and your younger sisters; for I will give them to you for daughters, but not because of My covenant with you. ⁶² And I will establish My covenant with you. Then you shall know that I am the Lord, ⁶³ that you may remember and be ashamed, and never open your mouth anymore because of your shame, when I provide you an atonement for all you have done,” says the Lord God.’”

God will bring honor to His name. It is not for the sake of Israel that God has restored Israel – but for God’s holy name and honor. God has chosen Israel (Jews) for His names sake not for the sake of Israel (Jews). (Ez. 36:22-25, 28, 32)

Ezekiel 36:22-25, 28, 32

²² “Therefore say to the house of Israel, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “I do not do this for your sake, O house of Israel, but for My holy name’s sake, which you have profaned among the nations wherever you went. ²³ And I will sanctify My great name, which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst; and the nations shall know that I am the Lord,” says the Lord God, “when I am hallowed in you before their eyes. ²⁴ For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land. ²⁵ Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.

²⁸ Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your God.

³² Not for your sake do I do this,” says the Lord God, “let it be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel!”

Notice verse 17 in Galatians 3. God’s law does not annul the covenant and promise that was made to Abraham. (Gal. 3:15-18)

Gal. 3:15-18

The Changeless Promise

¹⁵ Brethren, I speak in the manner of men: Though it is only a man’s covenant, yet if it is confirmed, no one annuls or adds to it. ¹⁶ Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,”^[i] who is Christ. ¹⁷ And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ,^[j] that it should make the promise of no effect. ¹⁸ For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

Your thoughts?

God bless,

GE

[Guest]

shilo357, Golden Eagle and all:

My problem is thus (the following is from the Christian viewpoint, no offence to those of mosaic belief): With the beginning of the Christianity there happened something new and those of the seed of Abraham who did not change their views and worship of God no longer could claim to worship properly and and hold a truthful belief. The true belief is taught by Jesus in the New Testament (new because the old covenant was not faultless) which is by Jews not esteemed in the way desired by God. Hence I don't understand how the Christian God can still be regarded as the God of the Jews if they simply don't belief in Him? And this fact, that Jews are not Chrisitans hold different believes, was certainly present to God when He said to Abraham that He shall be his and his descendants' God for ever.

Jehovah God is still the same right? I believe so. He revealed Himself to Abraham and chose for Himself a people (Israel) correct? That is what is evidenced in the Bible. Where in the Bible does it say that God has disowned Israel (Jews) completely? See Romans 11. Israel's (The Jews) rejection by God is not total (Rom. 11:1-10) nor is it final (Rom. 11:11-36).

Regarding this question in bold... Because a non-Christian rejects Jesus Christ is Jesus Christ no longer Messiah? Has God changed His name? Has God rejected His very own Nature? No I don't believe so.

Because many Jews have rejected God and His Messiah in Jesus Christ does that mean God is still not Himself? I would say no. God's promises and nature are the same.

God's covenant with Israel is everlasting. (Ez. 16:60-63)

Ezekiel 16:60-63

⁶⁰ “Nevertheless I will remember My covenant with you in the days of your youth, and I will establish an everlasting covenant with you. ⁶¹ Then you will remember your ways and be ashamed, when you receive your older and your younger sisters; for I will give them to you for daughters, but not because of My covenant with you. ⁶² And I will establish My covenant with you. Then you shall know that I am the Lord, ⁶³ that you may remember and be ashamed, and never open your mouth anymore because of your shame, when I provide you an atonement for all you have done,” says the Lord God.’”

God will bring honor to His name. It is not for the sake of Israel that God has restored Israel – but for God’s holy name and honor. God has chosen Israel (Jews) for His names sake not for the sake of Israel (Jews). (Ez. 36:22-25, 28, 32)

Ezekiel 36:22-25, 28, 32

²² “Therefore say to the house of Israel, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “I do not do this for your sake, O house of Israel, but for My holy name’s sake, which you have profaned among the nations wherever you went. ²³ And I will sanctify My great name, which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst; and the nations shall know that I am the Lord,” says the Lord God, “when I am hallowed in you before their eyes. ²⁴ For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land. ²⁵ Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.

²⁸ Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your God.

³² Not for your sake do I do this,” says the Lord God, “let it be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel!”

Notice verse 17 in Galatians 3. God’s law does not annul the covenant and promise that was made to Abraham. (Gal. 3:15-18)

Gal. 3:15-18

The Changeless Promise

¹⁵ Brethren, I speak in the manner of men: Though it is only a man’s covenant, yet if it is confirmed, no one annuls or adds to it. ¹⁶ Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,”^[i] who is Christ. ¹⁷ And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ,^[j] that it should make the promise of no effect. ¹⁸ For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

Your thoughts?

God bless,

GE

Amen~!

~

Because The Christian God IS The God Of Abraham, Isaac And Jacob

Is Ephraim my dear son? is he a pleasant child? for since I spake against him, I do earnestly remember him still: therefore my bowels are troubled for him; I will surely have mercy upon him, saith the LORD. Jeremiah 31:20

And Because The Christian God Is Faithful And True

As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. Romans 11:28-29

Israel Will Be Saved

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. Romans 11:26-27

And So The Christian Prays

Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee. Psalms 122:6

And Sings To Jehovah, Thank You LORD For Saving My Soul And Thank You LORD For Blessing Your Zion

And Bless You LORD For Their Salvation Who Will Come Back Down Through The Clouds

And I Love You LORD Jesus, I Love You My KING, I Love You

And I Bless You My Holy Holy Father

And Thank You For Yeshua

Come Quickly LORD

Maranatha~!

And Amen

Joe

[hippias]

My problem is thus (the following is from the Christian viewpoint, no offence to those of mosaic belief): With the beginning of the Christianity there happened something new and those of the seed of Abraham who did not change their views and worship of God no longer could claim to worship properly and and hold a truthful belief. The true belief is taught by Jesus in the New Testament (new because the old covenant was not faultless) which is by Jews not esteemed in the way desired by God. Hence I don't understand how the Christian God can still be regarded as the God of the Jews if they simply don't belief in Him? And this fact, that Jews are not Chrisitans hold different believes, was certainly present to God when He said to Abraham that He shall be his and his descendants' God for ever.

Note that your reasoning is based on what makes sense to YOU. You have erected a standard that requires the Jews to accept Jesus in order for God to be their God. The Bible erects no such standard. So the confusion lies with carnal reasoning and not with any implied internal inconsistencies in Scripture. God can be the God of whomever He chooses and and He doens't have make sure that it makes sense to you.

P.S. @shilo357: To your remark about the order of the stars, sun and moon one might answer that the stars, though commonly called fixed, are not fixed but move and change their order, sometimes even at a speed that makes changes visible during the lifetime of a human being, if you look keen enough. Furthermore when Jesus died on the cross there was an three hour eclipse of the sun which by what is know today is only possible by heavy manipulation of the order of the solar system. So one could regard the prophecy as fulfilled by these facts, if one feel so inclined.

Wrong. The stars have fixed order and that order is completely predictable. Astronomers would be unable to make scienific predictions unless there was a uniform and predictable order to the movement of the stars.

The three hour eclipse was supernatural event and God is able to manipulate nature to do as He pleases and still maintain the order of things. The order of the stars has not changed and thus God has not cast off Israel as his people.

shilo357: I just could use the same argument about the order of the stars: You are just refereing to an order that makes sense to YOU. But no one knows what order was referred to in that biblical verse. If the order means they remain at fixed positions relative to each other, then there is no order, because they move, meaning the star-signs today don't necassarily look the same as 2000 years ago.

However, that supernatural eclipse that occurred at Jesus's death, is an event that clearly depends on an alteration of the order of the world. So if one wants to interpret it thus, one could say at this point of time God changed the order of the moon, stars etc. And the longer I think about it: this particular time, the death of Jesus, would be a more than apropriate time to end the covenant with Abraham - IF God wanted to. And what sould this eclipse signify? In context to the verse you quoted, it would make sense.