please help me with: Ezekiel 38 and 39

[yaqub]

Identity of the invaders. Where is the land of Magog? It seems almost certain that these verses in Ez. refer to none other than that of Russia. Ez. tells us that the invasion will come from the uttermost part of the north. Josephus assures us that the descendants of Magog (Japheth's son and Noah's grandson) migrated to an area north of Palestine. Herodotus writes that Meshech's descendants settled north of Palestine.

Ez. lists five nations who will join Russia during her invasion. These are Persia, Ethipia, Libya, Gomer, and Togarmah. They refer to Persia (modern day Iran) Ethiopia (black African nations ie in South Africa) Libya (Arabic African nations ie North Africa) Gomer (East Germany) and Togarmah ie southern Russia and the Cossacks perhaps Turkey).

North of Palestine is still quite a way off from Russia. True, it mentions "far north", does it mean that further north the better? Notice that Beth Togarmah is also referred in Ezek 38:5 as from the far north, which most believe to be no further than Armenia. Ethiopia is Cush, and is a region in modern day Upper Egypt and Sudan region. I can't see S. Africa there. Gomer and Deutschland are too far apart linguistically.

Edited August 1, 2008 by yaqub

[Ephesians2-8]

No, I don't believe Russia is involved. I'll go thru the list first:

1. Magog - (Scythians) Turkey and the Central Asian republics.

2. Meshach - (Mushki) Central & WesternTurkey

3. Tubal - (Tabal) Eastern Turkey

4. Persia - Iran & Iraq

5. Cush - Upper Egypt, Sudan, Eritrea, etc.

6. Put - Libya

7. Gomer - (Gimarrai or Cimmerians) Cappadocia in Turkey

8. Beth Togarmah - (known as Tilgarimmu in Assyrian) Anatolia in Turkey and Armenia.

Feeble opposition:

1. Sheba and Dedan - Arabia

2. Tarshish - disputed.

The names in bracket are the ancient names of those places, and bears a much closer linguistic connection than Moscow, Tobolsk, Rus, etc. For example, Gomer and Gimarrai have the same consonants (remember that Hebrew is not written with vowels), Tubal and Tabal, etc.

Now about Rosh. The normal meaning of Rosh is chief or leader, and many felt that instead of reading "Rosh, Meshech and Tubal", should read "chief prince of Meshech and Tubal".

I would heartily concur with you.

[Celt]

Gog and Magog may include areas around nothern Turkey, but the Ezekiel 38:3 passage defintely includes Russia. The meaning of "chief prince" is 'prince of Rosh' or 'Rhos', which is what the Crimea and Tauri were called. Ezekiel 38:3 can be interpreted as speaking of four different entities associated with each other.

Nor is the Ezekiel 38-39 prophecy just speaking of the battle at Armageddon (hill of Megido) north of Jerusalem. Hamongog is yet to be located, while many wrongly assume it's pointing to Megido in Israel. Because Rev.20 mentions Gog and Magog again with a final battle after Christ's future "thousand years" reign on earth, it's also pointing to a specific type of people that represent the enemies of God and His Christ. The Communists in Russia who have the doctrines of atheism who hate religion, especially Christianity, cannot be left out of the group of God's enemies, especially when they have been at the forefront of the working against Christ in the last days.

Moreover, since Russia today can be seen allied with those other nations Ezekiel 38 names coming upon Israel, even funding those other nations like Syria and Iran with war materials and training, it's somewhat ludicrous to omit them. I refuse to buy into the propaganda that Russia is poor today, and no longer a threat, for that idea is hogwash. They just created the 'father of all bombs' this past year and tested it, so now they have the most powerful conventional bomb on earth.

[Ephesians2-8]

Gog and Magog may include areas around nothern Turkey, but the Ezekiel 38:3 passage defintely includes Russia. The meaning of "chief prince" is 'prince of Rosh' or 'Rhos', which is what the Crimea and Tauri were called. Ezekiel 38:3 can be interpreted as speaking of four different entities associated with each other.

Nor is the Ezekiel 38-39 prophecy just speaking of the battle at Armageddon (hill of Megido) north of Jerusalem. Hamongog is yet to be located, while many wrongly assume it's pointing to Megido in Israel. Because Rev.20 mentions Gog and Magog again with a final battle after Christ's future "thousand years" reign on earth, it's also pointing to a specific type of people that represent the enemies of God and His Christ. The Communists in Russia who have the doctrines of atheism who hate religion, especially Christianity, cannot be left out of the group of God's enemies, especially when they have been at the forefront of the working against Christ in the last days.

Moreover, since Russia today can be seen allied with those other nations Ezekiel 38 names coming upon Israel, even funding those other nations like Syria and Iran with war materials and training, it's somewhat ludicrous to omit them. I refuse to buy into the propaganda that Russia is poor today, and no longer a threat, for that idea is hogwash. They just created the 'father of all bombs' this past year and tested it, so now they have the most powerful conventional bomb on earth.

There are skilled linguists and Hebrew scholars who will debate you on the term "rosh" - as a term meaning a rank of title as in "general" or "admiral" or in this case "Chief prince" or implied "chief of princes." In other words, the term does not refer to a geographical location. Also this understanding makes greater sense, logically from the grammatical perspective.

The other often misapplied terms of "meshech" and "tubal" being referenced to Moscow and Tobalsk are also an even greater linguistical stretch. According to most anthropologists and archaeologists, Meschech and Tubal were located in Turkey.

To claim that it must be Russia - because Russia is supplying Syria and Iran weapons -- well, So is the USA. In fact, the USA has heavily supplied Turkey and the better part of the Iranian air force is made up of US jet fighters - F-14's and F-4 Phantoms not to forget US tanks and a British destroyer as I recall. Much of Iran's weaponry in missiles and ground components coming from either China or North Korea. Under your logic - that should make them also equal candidates, not to forget the USA.

Prior to 1945, most prophecy scholars believed that Magog and Meschech, Tubal, etc were Turkey. Russia or the Soviet Union was not even considered a possibility. The idea that Gomer is Germany is also a reallllll stretch linguistically also. Again, Gomer originally falls back to a portion of Turkey and Armenia.

I'm not dogmatically opposed to the idea of Russia as being in on this, but the claims cited for Russia as Magog are IMHO, very , very weak.

[Celt]

Yes, there are a lot of skilled so-called 'higher-critics' of The Bible, and a lot of anthropologists and Harvard archaeologists that also disagree with Biblical history and Biblical archaeological in general. Naturally those would tend to disagree with previous scholars views about Rosh and Rhos pointing to Russia.

As for the nearly outdated American made arsenal Iran acquired, that was under the Shah's regime who was a U.S. ally before the present Communist supported regime threw him out and took power. One might look at Cuba in the same way before Castro took power, and other nations that fell to Communist control, like Cambodia and Vietnam. Turkey is a member of NATO, so that's why possess military strength in the region. But some of their leaders are secretly allied with Iran and Syria, as Israel has discovered lately. I don't agree with Turkey being part of NATO myself, but that was done back during the Cold War against the Soviets. The U.S. once had missles in Turkey which the Cuban missle crisis caused them to be removed.

The Communists in Russia that have had a hand in toppling many smaller nation's governments that had opportunity for democracy isn't something that can be simply swept under the rug. There were Soviet advisors in North Vietnam and war materials that went through the Soviet bloc to Vietnam, just as it is today with their supporting the Islamic terrorists against Israel. Russia sent radical Hizbolla in Lebanon missles to fire against Israel when they last invaded. Russia and Red China today are still the main threats against the free world. Those who forget that have missed quite a bit in their Biblical interpretation of the latter days. They have especially missed how Putin has been preaching lately how Russia is going to be a superpower again.

Edited August 6, 2008 by Celt

[Larry 2]

Did somebody ever do a study on these 2 chapters?

I know its about the war of Russia against Israel, but I would like to know it in more detail, like which countries are going to be involved.

___________________________________________________________

My thoughts on Ezekiel 38 & 39

Ezekiel 38:11. And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates. These are those nations "out of the north" as we are told in Verse 15 that will come upon Israel, and they say unwalled cities believing they have no defense. They don't count on God being with Israel at that time since they were hated of all nations. I used to think our nation of American would always stand with Israel but was sort of set back at something a Jewish doctor of mine I witnessed to for some time said. We were talking about our families, and he let out that his son normally studied 12 hours a day to someday become a doctor and I asked, why so much? He responded that the only thing the Jew could take with him when this country kicked them out also was what they had learned. WOW.

Now why does this happen to Israel at that time? Verse 17 says "Thus saith the Lord GOD; Art thou he (Those great number to come against God's people of Israel in Verse 16) of whom I have spoken in old time by my servants the prophets of Israel, which prophesied in those days many years that I (Who is the "I " here? It is God) would bring thee against them? It is God that is bringing these from the north against His people of Israel. Then in the remaining verses of Ezekiel in Chapter 38 God shows His displeasure against those nations He has brought against Israel and says in Verse 22, "22 And I will plead against him (Those nations) with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone. Why did God do this? Verse 23. "Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am the LORD. God did much the same thing when He put Pharaoh in power in Egypt. We're told in Romans 9:17 "For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth."

Ezekiel Chapter 39 shows the great battle of Armageddon to come also shown in Revelation Chapter 16. This is that valley of Jezreel where so many battles were fought, and after this battle it will take 7 months to even bury the dead of that northern troop that comes them. Again, why does God do this? Verse 7. "So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel. And then in Verse 22 we also read "So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward." This is at the end of the great tribulation and at the very start of the millennium. You mean that Israel as a nation didn't know this before this. No I really do not know they did because we read in Verse 28 God says "Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen (Again we read here that it was God which caused them to go into captivity): but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there." Then last of all the proof of this in Verse 29. "Neither will I hide my face any more from them (You mean God had His face hid from Israel until after the battle of Armageddon?): for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD." Now God had protected them during the last 3 1/2 years of the tribulation according to Revelation 12:6 & 14 to bring then to this revealing of Himself to them.

There is in Verse 2 something I'm not sure of and that is; is there only a sixth part of those nations from the north that are left, or are there a sixth part that comes against the unwalled city? I believe only a sixth part are left to show God sanctified in the sight of many nations in Verse 27. The nations that observe this great devastation upon these northern nations may say "Look at how God has destroyed all but one sixth of them." Israel will now go into that thousand year reign of Christ no longer blinded because God is not hiding His face from them, and witnessing to all nations. Satan will be in the bottomless pit and there will be unparalleled blessings in the land.

Blessings to all in Jesus' name - larry2

btw: I do not know all the nations that will be against Israel at that time, but then neither does anyone else other than God.

[Celt]

Did somebody ever do a study on these 2 chapters?

I know its about the war of Russia against Israel, but I would like to know it in more detail, like which countries are going to be involved.

You've pretty much got the gist of it. You might ponder on a deeper aspect of the prophecy, such as its connection with Idumea (another name for Edom which means 'red', which is another name for Esau's children). Parts of Ezekiel 35 & 36, and Isaiah 34 about Idumea go with those Ezekiel 38 & 39 chapters.

It's also important to understand about the two sticks of Ezekiel 37 concerning the two houses of Israel. Per 1 Kings 11 forward, God split old Israel into two separate kingdoms; the ten tribes was one kingdom in the north at Samaria, and the three tribes of Judah, Benjamin and Levi were the southern kingdom at Jerusalem. They warred against each other, until God brought the king of Assyria upon the ten tribes and took them all captive to the land of the Medes north of Babylon. Those ten tribes were lost to the world, and made up the majority of the people of ancient Israel. But the 'house of Judah' retained their heritage as Israel. Yet God did not lose those of the 'house of Israel' (ten tribes) which lost their heritage as Israelites (Amos 9).

God is going to end this world age in judgment against the nations who are against Him and His people. There have been certain groups of peoples since Genesis that have been against Him, His people Israel, and His Birthright He gave to Israel. The 'beast' working actually goes all the way back to Genesis with a certain people. Those are part of that nation alignment He gave there in Ezekiel 38 and 39.

When God brings that judgment upon those nations, it will be by His Hand only. If He gave us power to defeat the enemy at the end then the enemy would simply refuse to believe God gave the victory. When He performs His "strange work" upon the enemy, those who lost their heritage as Israel (like the majority of the ten tribes did) will wake up and finally understand. So it's not just about non-believing Jews that have been deceived. That's why He gave that two sticks prophecy back in the previous chapter of Ezekiel 37. It's very important in understanding how the enemy will not just come up against the geographical land of Israel to destroy, but upon the lands where the lost ten tribes are dwelling also.

[maranathasoon]

Hi Angels

I do not see this conflict happening until the end of the 1000 year reign of the Messiah. This battle is the final rebellion that will happen when satan is loosened from his chains and released from the bottomless pit. he will go out and deceive the nations to attack the kingdom of the Messiah.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[Guest Scc3737]

This is a blog from an excellent website devoted to the study of the history of Israel. This thread deals specifically with Ezekiel 37 - 39. You may find some of the information very helpful.

http://www.israel-a-history-of.com/ezekiel-chapters-38-39.html

Scroll down to the bottom and read the comments by others section, too. You can post your own questions or comments. This website is very informative and written from a Christian perspective that the Word of God is infallible and accurate. I hope this helps.

[Bold Believer]

1. The word Rosh in Hebrew means chief or head. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH RUSSIA.

2. There are 2 Gog-Magog prophecies in Scripture, one physical, the other spiritual. The physical one has been fulfilled. The Spiritual one is BEING fulfilled as we speak.

3. The person who said that the spiritual prophecy occurs at the 1000 years of teaching is quite correct. What he or she may not realize is that those 1000 years have been fulfilled. Christ has reigned over the earth from heaven (with the martyrs of Rev 20) and the whole earth knows who Christ is. Whether they WORSHIP HIM is immaterial. It is the KNOWLEDGE OF THE LORD which covers the earth as the waters cover the seas, not the worship of the Lord.

4. The devil has been released and he IS currently gathering Magog. Gog (in Rev 20) is the devil. The Holy City is US. Believers. Are we not being attacked from every side? Spiritually and physically, the forces of Gog are on us. And just when it looks the bleakest, that is when Jesus will come. They surround us, text reads. And then fire from heaven consumes them all.