Praying

[other one]

Did Jesus(Peace Be Upon Him) Claim Divinity or Prophethood according to the Bible?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nazim, while I would agree with you that Jesus is not the Father, He did claim to be deity when he told the Priests that "Before Abraham was, I am."

The priests understood what he was saying and killed him for saying he was the God that they knew.

One must look at a lot of scripture to try and get a understanding of the relationship of the Father, Son and Spirit. While I do not agree with the People who preach the Trinity of the Father, Son and Spirit all being one great God and are equal and the same, the Three do exist.

70 of the elders of Israel, Moses, Aaron and some other dude I can't remember at this instant, went up on the mountain and saw the God of Israel. Made the comment that they ate and drank and was not killed, which was letting us know is was a physical visit and not a spiritual one.

Then comes Jesus and tells us that no man has seen the Father, except the Son. Which pretty much lets me know that the God that the old testament patriarchs knew was not the Father.

Jesus pretty much told us that he was "I Am", and that "I Am" was not the Father.

So, If you take all the Bible as truth then we must (in my mind anyway) accept the notion that he came here and gave us the opportunity to meet the force behind all creation.

Jesus was much more than just a prophet, He was/is and always will be our interface with the Father who is "The God" over all for for all.

And please don't try and tell me that the Father is Allah Please don't go there on this board......

[Slippery Slope]

So are you saying that prayers can be answered? That God can or will sometimes say yes or can be bargined or pleaded with? This would conflict with the "free will" theory. Or are you saying that God already knows and has already decided long before you ever pray (omniscience), which also conflicts with "free will" and makes prayer a vain attempt to plead with God when you already know he has chosen the outcome. I suppose you could say that God knows the outcome but doesn't chose or influence it, which would give back the "free will" theory but then still makes praying a waste of time... I'm confused.

Greetings SS,

The advantage a "believer" has over the "unbeliever" is the Holy Spirit who comes to reside in him. You are confused because you lack the resource (Holy Spirit) for understanding "spiritual" things. So these things will ALWAYS be a mystery or confusing to you.

Instead of attempting to "look into" the more mundane aspects of man's relationship with God, what you need to do is to investigate the reality OR non-reality of Jesus Christ. If you can prove to yourself that He isn't who He says He is, then you can go on your merry way, never looking back. This is the ONLY sure way of determining if the Bible is true.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

SS I find it interesting that you copy/paste several other's replies to you and you did not touch Dad Ernie's. I agree with Dad Earnie as to your position concerning Christ. The first thing you need to do is decide if Jesus the Christ is for real and is who he says he is. If not then the rest is junk, and if so........ I think you should be able to see.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The reason I did not reply to Dad Ernie is because he was suggesting the manner in which I should seek my answers. I've already begun looking for the answers and I don't think his suggestion is the right one for me.

My method is to try and determine if the bible is the inerrant word of god. If I conclude that it is a divinely inspired work that is infallible then it is clear that There is one god and that Jesus is the Lord. Unfortunately I have come to the conclusion that the bible is not the inerrant word of god, therefore I can not escape the feeling that it is the work of many men with many different motives. We have seen through the centuries the horrors men do in the name of Christ. The bible isn't even able to make all Christians agree on the word of god. How can I put my faith in a god who can't prevent it's followers or even it's most highly regarded teachers from the most basic sins. If you can't even trust it's priests...

Anyway, I'm hoping that the holy spirit will find me while I'm having discussions with you all.

Still waiting

-SS

[Slippery Slope]

Hello Nazim,

These are the typical verses pulled out by Islamic apologetics teachers, but when you read a few verses in any set of Scripture you can always create a "slanted picture".  Now did Jesus claim to be God?

Let's look:

Exodux 3:14  And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

John 8:58  Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Then what happened when Jesus said -- I AM!

John 8:59  Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

Why did they pick up stones?  For blasphemy!  He just called himself -- I AM -- God!

There's many instances of Scripture where the divinity of Jesus is clearly expressed.

Out of curiousity are you a Muslim?

Your brother in Christ with much agape love,

George

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I like how you just completely disregard the scripture he quotes (I notice no one else wanted to respond either). How can you just ignore these passages?

Still waiting

-SS

[ellie]

So are you saying that prayers can be answered? That God can or will sometimes say yes or can be bargined or pleaded with? This would conflict with the "free will" theory. Or are you saying that God already knows and has already decided long before you ever pray (omniscience), which also conflicts with "free will" and makes prayer a vain attempt to plead with God when you already know he has chosen the outcome. I suppose you could say that God knows the outcome but doesn't chose or influence it, which would give back the "free will" theory but then still makes praying a waste of time... I'm confused.

Greetings SS,

The advantage a "believer" has over the "unbeliever" is the Holy Spirit who comes to reside in him. You are confused because you lack the resource (Holy Spirit) for understanding "spiritual" things. So these things will ALWAYS be a mystery or confusing to you.

Instead of attempting to "look into" the more mundane aspects of man's relationship with God, what you need to do is to investigate the reality OR non-reality of Jesus Christ. If you can prove to yourself that He isn't who He says He is, then you can go on your merry way, never looking back. This is the ONLY sure way of determining if the Bible is true.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

SS I find it interesting that you copy/paste several other's replies to you and you did not touch Dad Ernie's. I agree with Dad Earnie as to your position concerning Christ. The first thing you need to do is decide if Jesus the Christ is for real and is who he says he is. If not then the rest is junk, and if so........ I think you should be able to see.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The reason I did not reply to Dad Ernie is because he was suggesting the manner in which I should seek my answers. I've already begun looking for the answers and I don't think his suggestion is the right one for me.

My method is to try and determine if the bible is the inerrant word of god. If I conclude that it is a divinely inspired work that is infallible then it is clear that There is one god and that Jesus is the Lord. Unfortunately I have come to the conclusion that the bible is not the inerrant word of god, therefore I can not escape the feeling that it is the work of many men with many different motives. We have seen through the centuries the horrors men do in the name of Christ. The bible isn't even able to make all Christians agree on the word of god. How can I put my faith in a god who can't prevent it's followers or even it's most highly regarded teachers from the most basic sins. If you can't even trust it's priests...

Anyway, I'm hoping that the holy spirit will find me while I'm having discussions with you all.

Still waiting

-SS

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi SS, the Holy Spirit already knows you It is us who need to seek God with all our hearts, souls, minds and strength. God can be found by those who seek Him with an open mind and heart. "Blessed are those who have not seen, yet still believe". In His Love, ellie

http://www.ankerberg.com/Articles/ATRJ/pro...ATRJ1103-22.pdf

[Slippery Slope]

This thread got hijacked at about post number 11 and was driven farther and farther off course every post thereafter. I'd like to rekindle this topic. The last post anywhere near the topic was number 17 so let's pick up from there.

Hi S.S. Happy to hear from you. I agree with you about denominations, which is why I believe in a relationship with Jesus Christ, not religion. I did not come to Jesus out of any fear I came out of a need to be forgiven for my sins. I do not serve Him out of a sense of reward, I serve Him because I love Him and have a relationship with Him. I believe most Christians will agree to this, it is a bonus for me to avoid hell which I believe in as much as I do heaven. The beautiful thing about free will is that you can choose to be skeptical about God and I can choose to follow Him. When I say that I pray to God because I have a relationship with Him, it is because I can talk with Him as I talk with others. I have had many instances of answered prayers including miraculous healing, which since you are skeptical of such things wouldn't mean much to you. It does however mean a great deal to me. Prayer isn't all about asking God for various or sundry things. Prayer is about having an intimate relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ, although I do believe He supplies all of my needs according to His Perfect Will. The Bible says that the sun shines on the just and the unjust and the rain falls on both groups, one group chooses to follow God, while the other does not. I've always looked at it this way, if what I believe is wrong and there is no afterlife I truly haven't lost as much as someone who doesn't believe. For I will just be worm food at that point and I would have lived a good life. Because if what I believe is true, I live a life in Christ and when I die I go to heaven, therefore avoiding hell. But if an unbeliever dies and what I believe is proven true, they are suffering forever in eternal torment. In His Great Love, ellie

Most of this is just proselytizing but I did find this to be interesting "I have had many instances of answered prayers including miraculous healing..." but then you go on to say "Prayer isn't all about asking God for various or sundry things. Prayer is about having an intimate relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ..."

So at least in your mind ellie, you can ask God to intervene on your behalf. So if someone were sick and you pray hard enough God may at decide to answer your prayer and change the outcome of a situation for you. Is this correct?

Still waiting

-SS

[Anne]

I am concerned that in your search Slippery Slope that you are choosing to seek out what God can do for you.

If the truth He speaks doesn't fit into your life style will you just throw Him to the side and disregard him? Of course you can do this, if you choose, it is the gift of free will.

Washed in the Blood of the Lamb

Anne

[Slippery Slope]

I am concerned that in your search Slippery Slope that you are choosing to seek out what God can do for you.

If the truth He speaks doesn't fit into your life style will you just throw Him to the side and disregard him?

Edited December 13, 2004 by Dr. Luke

[ellie]

This thread got hijacked at about post number 11 and was driven farther and farther off course every post thereafter. I'd like to rekindle this topic. The last post anywhere near the topic was number 17 so let's pick up from there.

Hi S.S. Happy to hear from you. I agree with you about denominations, which is why I believe in a relationship with Jesus Christ, not religion. I did not come to Jesus out of any fear I came out of a need to be forgiven for my sins. I do not serve Him out of a sense of reward, I serve Him because I love Him and have a relationship with Him. I believe most Christians will agree to this, it is a bonus for me to avoid hell which I believe in as much as I do heaven. The beautiful thing about free will is that you can choose to be skeptical about God and I can choose to follow Him. When I say that I pray to God because I have a relationship with Him, it is because I can talk with Him as I talk with others. I have had many instances of answered prayers including miraculous healing, which since you are skeptical of such things wouldn't mean much to you. It does however mean a great deal to me. Prayer isn't all about asking God for various or sundry things. Prayer is about having an intimate relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ, although I do believe He supplies all of my needs according to His Perfect Will. The Bible says that the sun shines on the just and the unjust and the rain falls on both groups, one group chooses to follow God, while the other does not. I've always looked at it this way, if what I believe is wrong and there is no afterlife I truly haven't lost as much as someone who doesn't believe. For I will just be worm food at that point and I would have lived a good life. Because if what I believe is true, I live a life in Christ and when I die I go to heaven, therefore avoiding hell. But if an unbeliever dies and what I believe is proven true, they are suffering forever in eternal torment. In His Great Love, ellie

Most of this is just proselytizing but I did find this to be interesting "I have had many instances of answered prayers including miraculous healing..." but then you go on to say "Prayer isn't all about asking God for various or sundry things. Prayer is about having an intimate relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ..."

So at least in your mind ellie, you can ask God to intervene on your behalf. So if someone were sick and you pray hard enough God may at decide to answer your prayer and change the outcome of a situation for you. Is this correct?

Still waiting

-SS

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

God may intervene in any given situation and change the outcome for anyone, not just me. I used myself as an example because God has miraculously healed me. I could use other instances of miraculous healings that I have personally witnessed as well.

But also, when I say prayer is about having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ I am again referring to my own experience with prayer. I commuticate with Jesus through prayer as many other Christians do. I am a Christian so it should not surprise you SS that I would proselytize any chance I can get In His Love and Service, Ellie

[Slippery Slope]

God may intervene in any given situation and change the outcome for anyone, not just me.  I used myself as an example because God has miraculously healed me. I could use other instances of miraculous healings that I have personally witnessed as well.

But also, when I say prayer is about having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ I am again referring to my own experience with prayer.  I commuticate with Jesus through prayer as many other Christians do.  I am a Christian so it should not surprise you SS that I would proselytize any chance I can get   In His Love and Service, Ellie

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Interesting, so if you pray for someone to be healed and they aren't do you assume you didn't pray well enough or do you chalk it up to gods mysterious purpose which you aren't meant to understand? How do you know which it is?

Still waiting

-SS

[Botz]

Hi SlipperySlope.

There are no easy answers to the questions about prayer...but there are biblical guidelines and examples....here are two that I have no doubt about.

1.) For a Believer the number one thing is to know that G-d actually hears your prayers...however pathetic they may be at times...He looks at the heart of a person and responds to faith and not just words.

Hebrews makes this point...

11:6 And without faith it is impossible to be well-pleasing unto him; for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that seek after him.

2.) We are also called to be persistant in prayer and not to give up. This is a hard concept to grasp sometimes even for a Believer and opens a veritable Pandoras box of sub-questions...but it is a vital part of developing an effective,challenging and rewarding prayer-life...Much of this goes on in the privacy and intimacy of an individuals prayer-life that is known and recorded only by G-d Himself.

Luke 18:1-8 Covers this very well...and verse 7 says.

"And shall not God avenge His own elect who cry day and night to Him, though He has been long-suffering over them?"

The thrust of this is that somehow through prayer G-d weighs and tests an individuals heart and so much more goes on than we might truely understand and there is no easy formula that will guarantee results that is not connected to faith and persistance anchored in relationship to our Heavenly Father.

Having said that ....in direct answer to your inquiry..

SS...

Interesting, so if you pray for someone to be healed and they aren't do you assume you didn't pray well enough or do you chalk it up to gods mysterious purpose which you aren't meant to understand? How do you know which it is?

Answering for myself I would have to say that many times I do not know why someone may not be healed...it could be from lack of faith on behalf of the ones praying or the recipient...It might not be G-ds timing or plan...I try not to second guess G-d but to be obedient to whatever situation I am in....I have gone through some great disappointments and struggled to understand why nothing has happened at times.

Hope this gives you a clue. Kind Regards. Botz