There is no other choice?

[christine_wb]

I have introduced the good news to an unbeliever the other day. He asked me such a question: Since God knows everything in the past, at present as well as in the future, he must also completely know what will happen in Eden in advance, that is, Adam and Eve were destined to eat the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil when the serpent came to lure them. God has already known that they can not endure the test and eat the fruit, therefore sins entered the world, men will have to accept the Salvation of Cross which also was arranged by God in advance. In the whole process, we human being are totally passive, it was not 2 ways displayed before Adam and Eve, eat or do not eat, but only one way, that is, eat! Otherwise there will not be the subsequent story. From this point of view, the redemption of our Savior is not so precious as we think all along, since the disobedience of our ancestor is also part of God's eternal plan, there is no other choice for us human being, we are just miserable puppet under God's hand.

Frankly, I also don't know what the answer of this question is. Some people think before the world was created, there was a battle between God and the Satan. While God did not defeat Satan directly, for Satan is far from the rival of God, God will not be glorified by doing such, just like a giant defeated a little child. Therefore God created human being, who were lower than Satan, and through the victory of the second Adam (Jesus Christ in human flesh, who also was a man) and his follower, God declared the failure of Satan-----he can not even defeat the beings lower than him, not to mention God, who is the king of kings, and LORD of lords.

Maybe we can not understand the actual truth until the day we meet our God face to face. We are just the creation of our Lord. How can we ask our creator why he created us like this? But I still want to present this question here, and I wish to see some light from you. I am a new believer after all. May be it will help me love our Lord more deeply by knowing him more. Thanks!

[borntorebel]

I have introduced the good news to an unbeliever the other day.  He asked me such a question:  Since God knows everything in the past, at present as well as in the future, he must also completely know what will happen in Eden in advance, that is, Adam and Eve were destined to eat the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil when the serpent came to lure them.  God has already known that they can not endure the test and eat the fruit, therefore sins entered the world, men will have to accept the Salvation of Cross which also was arranged by God in advance.  In the whole process, we human being are totally passive, it was not 2 ways displayed before Adam and Eve, eat or do not eat, but only one way, that is, eat!  Otherwise there will not be the subsequent story.  From this point of view, the redemption of our Savior is not so precious as we think all along, since the disobedience of our ancestor is also part of God's eternal plan, there is no other choice for us human being, we are just miserable puppet under God's hand.

Frankly, I also don't know what the answer of  this question is.  Some people think before the world was created, there was a battle between God and the Satan.  While God did not defeat Satan directly, for Satan is far from the rival of God, God will not be glorified by doing such, just like a giant defeated a little child.  Therefore God created human being, who were lower than Satan, and through the victory of the second Adam (Jesus Christ in human flesh, who also was a man) and his follower, God declared the failure of Satan-----he can not even defeat the beings lower than him, not to mention God, who is the king of kings, and LORD of lords. 

Maybe we can not understand the actual truth until the day we meet our God face to face.  We are just the creation of our Lord.  How can we ask our creator why he created us like this?  But I still want to present this question here, and I wish to see some light from you.  I am a new believer after all.  May be it will help me love our Lord more deeply by knowing him more.  Thanks.

Christine,

Your friend has presented a very interesting dilemma. Several of the things he/she states are true. God did know Adam and Eve would disobey and eat the fruit. Jesus was foreordained before the foundations of the world to be our sacrifice (1 Peter 1:20). However, we aren't puppets on a string. The redemption of our savior is very precious indeed. God knew what He was doing when He created ALL things. God knew Adam and Eve would disobey, that's why Jesus was foreordained before the foundation of the world to die for our sins. God isn't running a damage control center. He didn't lose any battle to satan. He created satan, and satan is fulfilling his purpose in God's plan as well. We, in turn, are part of God's plan. We have the ability to make choices, but God knows, and tells us in scripture, that noone seeks God, noone is righteous, our righteousnes are as filthy rags. But through the salvation of His son Jesus Christ, we have been freed from the bondage of sin and given the incredible gift of God's grace to live for Him. I hope this sheds light on your dilemma.

May God's power and peace be with you,

Ron

Edited November 2, 2004 by borntorebel

[Leonard]

I also knew.....even before my daughter was born, that eventually she would scrape a knee, stub a toe, etc..... But I didn't make her do it! I wish she had never injured herself, but my foreknowledge, did not 'predestine' it!

Was she 'just a miserable puppet?'

[Dad Ernie]

God has already known that they can not endure the test and eat the fruit, therefore sins entered the world, men will have to accept the Salvation of Cross which also was arranged by God in advance.

Greetings Christine,

Romans 8:19-21 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. 20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Here is the Greek for the word Vanity:

3153 mataiotes {mat-ah-yot'-ace}

from 3152; TDNT - 4:523,571; n f

AV - vanity 3; 3

1) what is devoid of truth and appropriateness

2) perverseness, depravity

3) frailty, want of vigour

You may want to consider Jesus, who we believe to be the ONE and ONLY "PERFECT" human. Adam certainly was not. King David, although a man after God's own heart was not. And Paul readily admits that he was not.

Anything LESS than God, by the virtue of its very nature is LESS than PERFECT. So upon the incarnation of Jesus:

Psalms 8:5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

Hebrews 2:7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

Philippians 2:6-8 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

COMPARE:

James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

So Jesus became in all ways like us, even to the point of being able to be tempted, which God CANNOT be.

Adam WAS NOT CREATED "PERFECT", in fact it is not even said that he was created "GOOD". But that on the 6th day, God saw ALL that He had created and called it GOOD.

This means that it was GOOD for the purposes for which God created it. Please refer to the first verses above.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[ellie]

I also knew.....even before my daughter was born, that eventually she would scrape a knee, stub a toe, etc.....  But I didn't make her do it!  I wish she had never injured herself, but my foreknowledge, did not 'predestine' it!

Was she 'just a miserable puppet?'

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Absolutely wonderful analogy Leonard, I have never heard it put better.

[Shelby]

I concur and add this tidbit.

Yes God does know what CHOICES WE WILL MAKE, but he does not choose them for us. HE is God, time is of no essence to him, therefore he can see the beginning and the end in the same moment. He can see what we will do in 20 years, he can see what we will choose for dinner tonight, but it is not about God's foreknowledge, though we marvel at it, it is about our choices.

It would be like watching a documentary that you produced, you have already seen it, and edited it, and choose to put the people in it in the situations that would cause them to interact and support your purpose behind it, but you did not choose for them how they will act, react, and live, but you helped to guide and direct them to focus on a certain theme, purpose, or direction.

I hope this makes sense. I don't believe in pre-destination, I believe that God FORE KNOWS all that is to come. It is His documentary, the editing is done, as is the end is over, now to have it unfold for the viewers and the people in it themselves. HE of course has seen it, many times over, and considers this as he helps to guide us around some hurdles, or comfort us through some pain.

Time is such a small box for God, heck we hardly can be held down by it, why should he.

[borntorebel]

but it is not about God's foreknowledge, though we marvel at it, it is about our choices.

"Him (Jesus), being delivered BY the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken and by wicked hands have crucified and slain." Acts 2:23 KJV.

Now, Peter is speaking to the Jews after pentecost here. It seems pretty important to Peter that God's determinate counsel and foreknowledge of Jesus' life on earth be mentioned.

Determinate - Strong's #3724 - horizo - from 3725; to mark out or bound (horizon), i.e. (fig.) to appoint, decree, specify.

Counsel - Strong's 1012 - boule - volition, i.e. (obj.) advice, or (by impl.) purpose.

Foreknowledge - Strong's #4268 -prognosis - from #4267 (to know beforehand); forethought.

Jesus life and death was the appointed purpose of God. God knew beforehand what would happen. That doesn't mean he saw it all happen and then foreknew. If God already saw it all happen, then how can it be foreknowledge?

"For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou (God) hast anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together (why were they gathered together?), For to do whatsoever thy (God's) hand and thy counsel determined before to be done." Acts 427-28 KJV.

This says plain as day that Herod, Pontius Pilate, the Gentiles and the people of Israel were gathered together against Christ in order to crucify him by God's hand and counsel.

So, do you believe God's word, or man's traditions?

May God's power and peace be with you,

Ron

[Dad Ernie]

So, do you believe God's word, or man's traditions?

What's your point? Do you know WHEN the Lord's sacrifice was determined? How about BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THIS WORLD?

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[borntorebel]

What's your point? Do you know WHEN the Lord's sacrifice was determined? How about BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THIS WORLD?

DE,

My point is quite clearly stated, andyes I do know that Jesus Christ was foreordained before the foundation of the world to be our savior.

May God's power and peace be with you,

Ron

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings BorntoRebel,

Well I am kind of stupid, please explain your remarks.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie