Qnts2 Posted April 1, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 20 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,875 Content Per Day: 0.71 Reputation: 1,336 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/13/2013 Status: Offline Author Share Posted April 1, 2013 If you don't mind, let me bring Passover into this. In the story of Passover, the final plague was the death of the first born, in every home and family in Egypt. All first born were condemned to die that night. But, the children of Israel were told to take the blood of a lamb to put on the door posts of the house, and the death angel would pass over that house. All were condemned to death, and the only reason the first born of the children of Israel did not actually die, was because the blood caused the death angel to pass over. Had they not applied the blood, the first born would have died. So, the blood on the door posts caused those who were condemned to die to live instead. So, Passover is a celebration of what God did to give us life, deliverance, redemption and freedom. In the NT, we were dead in our sins and Jesus said He came to give life. And that means we are repeating His death only every time we break bread how? Whenever I have been to a church service which had communion, the focus has been on the death of Jesus, symbolically partaking of His body and blood which was given for us. That is what I mean by repeatedly focusing on His death, since communion is usually done multiple times a year. Some churches do it once a month. While celebrating His resurrection is only once a year on Easter. Passover is once a year, with the first fruits wave offering/resurrection, occuring shortly after. The first fruits wave offering/resurrection is tied together with Pentacost, so all three Holy days are interrelated. Death, Resurrection, giving of the Holy Spirit (new life). I have never actually done a scripture count, but given the number of times the resurrection is mentioned in scripture, and the importance placed on it, it would seem the resurrection carries more importance to us. So the fulfillment of the three Holy days must be tied together to give the full story and importance to us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
He giveth more grace Posted April 1, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 123 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 2,049 Content Per Day: 0.32 Reputation: 267 Days Won: 9 Joined: 10/22/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted April 1, 2013 Stating again, I am no qualified teacher, but why do you state that they only dipped once, and how do you assume it is bitter herbs, when I am dipping in Soy Sauce or Fish Sauce I dip every time I have eating the end of food that has sauce on it. This means nothing what I said if I don't have scripture, but in the Last Supper and Lord's supper no remembrance of Egyptian bondage should be present. Paul, to who the Lord gave the instruction of the Lord's Supper to made no reference to what we eat except bread and wine. I'll leave it there to those more equipped with knowledge and understanding than I. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shimshon Posted April 1, 2013 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 143 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 4 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/13/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 06/05/1967 Share Posted April 1, 2013 Stating again, I am no qualified teacher, but why do you state that they only dipped once, and how do you assume it is bitter herbs, when I am dipping in Soy Sauce or Fish Sauce I dip every time I have eating the end of food that has sauce on it. This means nothing what I said if I don't have scripture, but in the Last Supper and Lord's supper no remembrance of Egyptian bondage should be present. Paul, to who the Lord gave the instruction of the Lord's Supper to made no reference to what we eat except bread and wine. I'll leave it there to those more equipped with knowledge and understanding than I. Why don't you consider the context of the text? It plainly explains how it was passover when 'the Lord's super' is defined. As quoted from the ESV Matthew 26 The Passover with the Disciples 17 Now on My time is at hand. I will keep the Passover at your house with my disciples.'" 19 And the disciples did as Jesus had directed them, and they prepared the Passover. 20 When it was evening, he reclined at table with the twelve."He who has dipped his hand in the dish with me will betray me. 24 The Son of Man goes as it is written of him, but Rabbi?" He said to him, "You have said so." Institution of the Lord's Supper 26 Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and this is my body." 27 And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, "Drink of it, all of you, 28 for this is my covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. 29 I tell you I will not drink again of this fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you The Passover with the Disciples Mark 14 The Passover with the Disciples 12 And on the first day of Unleavened Bread, when they sacrificed the Passover lamb, his disciples said to him, "Where will you have us go and prepare for you to eat the Passover?" 13 And he sent two of his disciples and said to them, "Go into the city, and a man carrying a jar of water will meet you. Follow him, 14 and wherever he enters, say to the master of the house, 'The Teacher says, Where is my guest room, where I may eat the Passover with my disciples?' 15 And he will show you a large upper room furnished and ready; there prepare for us." 16 And the disciples set out and went to the city and found it just as he had told them, and they prepared the Passover. 17 And when it was evening, he came with the twelve. 18 And as they were reclining at table and eating, Jesus said, "Truly, I say to you, one of you will betray me, one who is eating with me." 19 They began to be sorrowful and to say to him one after another, "Is it I?" 20 He said to them, "It is one of the twelve, one who is dipping bread into the dish with me. 21 For the Son of Man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born." Institution of the Lord's Supper 22 And as they were eating, he took bread, and after blessing it broke it and gave it to them, and said, "Take; this is my body." 23 And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, and they all drank of it. 24 And he said to them, "This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many. 25 Truly, I say to you, I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God." Luke 22 The Passover with the Disciples 7 Then came the day of Unleavened Bread, on which the Passover lamb had to be sacrificed. 8 So Jesus sent Peter and John, saying, "Go and prepare the Passover for us, that we may eat it." 9 They said to him, "Where will you have us prepare it?" 10 He said to them, "Behold, when you have entered the city, a man carrying a jar of water will meet you. Follow him into the house that he enters 11 and tell the master of the house, 'The Teacher says to you, Where is the guest room, where I may eat the Passover with my disciples?' 12 And he will show you a large upper room furnished; prepare it there." 13 And they went and found it just as he had told them, and they prepared the Passover. Institution of the Lord's Supper 14 And when the hour came, he reclined at table, and the apostles with him. 15 And he said to them, "I have earnestly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer. 16 For I tell you I will not eat ituntil it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God." 17 And he took a cup, and For I tell you that from now on I will not drink of the fruit of the vine And he took bread, and "This is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me." 20 And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, the new <a name="25">covenant in my blood 1 Cor 11 refers to nothing else but the passover. As this is the only time Messiah took bread and wine and instructed his disciples to 'remember him'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fez Posted April 1, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 683 Topics Per Day: 0.12 Content Count: 11,128 Content Per Day: 2.00 Reputation: 1,352 Days Won: 54 Joined: 02/03/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/07/1952 Share Posted April 1, 2013 Whenever I have been to a church service which had communion, the focus has been on the death of Jesus, symbolically partaking of His body and blood which was given for us. That is what I mean by repeatedly focusing on His death, since communion is usually done multiple times a year. Some churches do it once a month. While celebrating His resurrection is only once a year on Easter. Passover is once a year, with the first fruits wave offering/resurrection, occuring shortly after. The first fruits wave offering/resurrection is tied together with Pentacost, so all three Holy days are interrelated. Death, Resurrection, giving of the Holy Spirit (new life). I have never actually done a scripture count, but given the number of times the resurrection is mentioned in scripture, and the importance placed on it, it would seem the resurrection carries more importance to us. So the fulfillment of the three Holy days must be tied together to give the full story and importance to us. Ok, it's just that my church see's it a bit differently. Jesus gave no instruction for us to focus on His death, rather on the covenant of His blood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
He giveth more grace Posted April 1, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 123 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 2,049 Content Per Day: 0.32 Reputation: 267 Days Won: 9 Joined: 10/22/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted April 1, 2013 Why don't you consider the context of the text? It plainly explains how it was passover when 'the Lord's super' is defined. As quoted from the ESVI am not going to patch an old garment with a new cloth. I am not going to mixed covenants. Jesus started a new ordinance. My final word. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Botz Posted April 1, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 76 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,492 Content Per Day: 0.61 Reputation: 191 Days Won: 18 Joined: 03/29/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted April 1, 2013 I profess to be no teacher, but I believe the the Passover Seder, the Lord's Supper, and breaking of bread is different and distinct. That is what I also understand. The Seder was to be eaten with bitter herbs in remembrance of the Jews bitter enslavement in Egypt, no mention of bitter herbs in Lord's Supper The Seder was to be eaten in haste, which in Christianity we are instructed to sit and rest. By Jesus' time I believe the Passover etiquette had been relaxed a little, hence have the scenario of them lounged on cushions around a table, and young John resting his head on Jesus' shoulder (I believe he was probably only about 15 at the time). I believe that the Lord set the precedence of the Lord's Supper in the Gospel. This is the bit I am still seeking clarification on...my own feeling at the moment is that when Jesus said to do this as a proclamation of His death He was specifically ratifying a new element to the Passsover...so that in both the breaking of the unleavened bread they we would see Him, andi in partaking of the 3rd cup...the cup of redemption we would see our redemption through a newer covenant sealed in His blood. What the Church has done IMO is extract the core of what Jesus taught, divorced it from a historical context and the central feast of the Israelites... given it a make-over and presented a sanitized version devoid of any real Jewish connection. I don't have anything against communion, I sometimes take it, but mostly I pass on it...Like Faz mentions though,our focus is not really on death (that is more of an Anglican thing)...it is on what the L-rd has done and thanking Him for giving us eternal life etc...so it is very positive. Breaking of bread is daily supper, church could gather in the home to eat together, but is simply dining Yes that is what I have been led to understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Botz Posted April 1, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 76 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,492 Content Per Day: 0.61 Reputation: 191 Days Won: 18 Joined: 03/29/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted April 1, 2013 1 Cor 11 refers to nothing else but the passover. As this is the only time Messiah took bread and wine and instructed his disciples to 'remember him'. Not so sure on that bro...Paul has a tendency to speak about a certain subject, then include something else within the same framework, and then go back to what he was initially referring to, and from the account here it appears to me that this is what is happening...starting off with the way people get to the house of the brethren and scoff the nosh and quaff the booze...thinking only of themselves 'not discerning the Body'...He then narrows things down to the Passover seder and expresses things from within its context that should also effect how they operate at any meal gathering...namely they are all brothers and sisters of the New Covenant, and should deport themselves accordingly....he then returns to his original observation, when by this time many should be hanging their heads in shame. Have another read of it and let me know what you think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted April 1, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.76 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.95 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted April 1, 2013 Stating again, I am no qualified teacher, but why do you state that they only dipped once, and how do you assume it is bitter herbs, when I am dipping in Soy Sauce or Fish Sauce I dip every time I have eating the end of food that has sauce on it. Dipping in the bitter herbs is a part of the Passover Sader. Each person takes a peice of matza and dips it into the bitter herbs. This is done one time only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shimshon Posted April 1, 2013 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 143 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 4 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/13/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 06/05/1967 Share Posted April 1, 2013 1 Cor 11 refers to nothing else but the passover. As this is the only time Messiah took bread and wine and instructed his disciples to 'remember him'. Have another read of it and let me know what you think. I think Matt 26:26-26, Mark 14:22-24, and Luke 22:16-20 all indicate quite clearly that the disciples were eating the passover meal with Messiah when He instructed them about the bread and wine. To use one verse of Paul to muddy or invalidate the context within all three gospels is not something i'm in the habit of doing. Matt 26:19 And the disciples did as Jesus had directed them, and they prepared the Passover. 26Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and this is my body." 27 And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, "Drink of it, all of you, 28 for this is my covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. Mark 14:16 And the disciples set out and went to the city and found it just as he had told them, and they prepared the Passover. 22 And as they were eating, he took bread, and after blessing it broke it and gave it to them, and said, "Take; this is my body." 23 And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, and they all drank of it. 24 And he said to them, "This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many. 25 Truly, I say to you, I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God." Luke 22:13 And they went and found it just as he had told them, and they prepared the Passover. 15 And he said to them, "I have earnestly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer. 16 For I tell you I will not eat ituntil it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God." 17 And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he said, "Take this, and divide it among yourselves. 18 For I tell you that from now on I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes." 19 And he took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me." 20 And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, "This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood. Paul was not making things up on his own, nor instituting something new from within the passover. As we see, all three gospels state the bread and wine to be remembered are in the context of the passover celebration. Now, if your going to teach that Paul taught something different, your going to have to prove that, with scripture. Because the gospels agree with Paul. The bread and wine of rememberance is embedded 'within' the passover meal. There is nothing 'new' being added here. All three gospels prove this to be true. Even John identifies the bread and wine within the Passover meal. Just not as succinctly as the three above. Even the tiles of the chapter sections detail this. "Passover with the Disciples" is followed by "Institution of the Lord's Super". Each gospel has the same embeddment of the bread and wine within the passover meal. To think otherwise is foolish. There is no teaching from Paul that states otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Botz Posted April 2, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 76 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,492 Content Per Day: 0.61 Reputation: 191 Days Won: 18 Joined: 03/29/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted April 2, 2013 1 Cor 11 refers to nothing else but the passover. As this is the only time Messiah took bread and wine and instructed his disciples to 'remember him'. Have another read of it and let me know what you think. I think Matt 26:26-26, Mark 14:22-24, and Luke 22:16-20 all indicate quite clearly that the disciples were eating the passover meal with Messiah when He instructed them about the bread and wine. To use one verse of Paul to muddy or invalidate the context within all three gospels is not something i'm in the habit of doing. Congrats...you have totally missed my point. Also I have never tried to imply that the meal was anything but Passover...in fact I was re-iterating it. Paul was not making things up on his own, nor instituting something new from within the passover. As we see, all three gospels state the bread and wine to be remembered are in the context of the passover celebration. Now, if your going to teach that Paul taught something different, your going to have to prove that, with scripture. Because the gospels agree with Paul. The bread and wine of rememberance is embedded 'within' the passover meal. There is nothing 'new' being added here. All three gospels prove this to be true. Even John identifies the bread and wine within the Passover meal. Just not as succinctly as the three above. Hang on just a minute there bro....what I was saying is that in the context of Passover Jesus was expanding/adding another dimension to the feast so yes He is instituting something new....He is revealing Himself in the Passover, He is signifying that even the breaking of bread should NOW remind them of His body broken for them, and He is showing them that the third cup of Redemption, is also a testimony of His blood redeeming them from sin, because it is the blood of the Lamb that saves us. Even the tiles of the chapter sections detail this. "Passover with the Disciples" is followed by "Institution of the Lord's Super". Each gospel has the same embeddment of the bread and wine within the passover meal. To think otherwise is foolish. There is no teaching from Paul that states otherwise. I do try not to be too foolish...but I was asking if you could see within the context, that Paul was covering 2 things...obviously you couldn't as you either misread or misunderstood what I wrote...I wasn't even saying I was right in the way I was reading it, I just hoped for a reply that was friendly and informative...so was a little surprised/disappointed at the tone and wording of your reply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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