How to prove Jesus is God

[Ovedya]

Oh and by the way, Godman, why don't you read the account of the burning bush. God didn't appear to moses as a burning bush, you are just making that up. The scirpure says

Ex 3

1Now Moses was keeping the flock of his father-in-law, Jethro, the priest of Midian, and he led his flock to the west side of the wilderness and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. 2And the angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush. He looked, and behold, the bush was burning, yet it was not consumed.

The angel of the Lord appeared to Moses, doing what? Manifesting God's glory to him. Was it God, NO it was not, it was an angel. This kind of made up testimoney makes me doubt your scritpure interpritation. What did Jesus do, he manifested GOd's glory to the people, this is why people could see Jesus and not die, but no man can see God's face and live (Ex 33) Do you understand what I am saying?

peace.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In the Scriptures the Angel of Jehovah is the pre-incarnate Christ. Notice that it does not say "an angel..." but, "the angel..." This was the same pre-incarnate Christ that talked with Abraham and Sarah in Genesis 16. It was also the same Angel that Jacob wrestled with in Genesis 32. And this is also the Angel in Revelation who revealed Himself to John.

When that same John (The one who wrote Revelation) looked upon the face of Jesus, he knew who he was looking at. There simply is no doubt about it.

In John 1:1-2 and 14, John wrote that Jesus Christ is the eternal Word of God, who is God.

In 1 John 1:1-2, John wrote that his eyes beheld and his hands handled the Word of life, who is Jesus Christ - God incarnate.

And in case there was ever any doubt in the minds of readers, John clearly pointed out who the Word of God is in Revelation 19:13

Therefore, there is no mistaking, there is no doubt, and there is no credible evidence to the contrary, that Jesus Christ is God Himself!

[BigD]

Thanks Skillet, I would have pointed it out ..but the response would have been that Jesus was the angel of the Lord who appeared unto moses who is the "third-head" of God so it was God ..

It is easy to bring and say "look there is Jesus, thats Him" in the old testament scripture ..

but the truth is:

Hebrews 1:1

In many and various ways God spoke of old to our fathers by the prophets;

but in these last days He has spoken to us by a Son, whom He appointed the heir of all things, through whom also He created the world.

In the old testament God didnt use the Son to talk to us ..Jesus the Son's interaction only started in the NT ..the OT sightings, they are what the scripture says "angels of the Lord".

I stress my point one more time

Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

burning fire and bush are creations ..God is a creator not the creation ..if we say that the burning bush was God then we have nothing in difference with a hindu brahmin who prays in the morning to the sun ..coz its a god to him ..

Just because God uses a creation to manifest His glory and power doesnt make Him that creation. Pillar of Smoke and Fire are Gods manifestations to lead the people of israel not God Himself. If the smoke and pillar of fire were God then why did Jesus say no one has ever seen God? ..Jesus was a perfect manifestation of Gods love and Gods plan for our salvation.

[Ovedya]

SRMF,

Its funny Godman that you answered my scritpure but failed to answer my question.

You say CHrist himself transformed his human flesh into immortaly, but the scritpure says differently

Heb 5:

7In the days of his flesh, Jesus[1] offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to him who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverence. 8Although he was a son, he learned obedience through what he suffered.

THe father was the only one who could save JEsus from death, Jesus couldn't otherwise why would he be prayer to the father if jesus was the father.

This is some kind of cycle we are in, you quote scritpures and don't answer mine.

Here's where I will answer your replys and your use of Scripture. First of all, your quotation of Hebrews 5:7-8 is not relevant to the discussion of whether the Lord Jesus transformed His own flesh or not. These verses simply state that the Lord Jesus prayed to the Father, which He did, and that the Father was able to save Him from death, which He did. Again, you are focussing on the verses that you have chosen, which show the separation of Jesus from His heavenly Father. However, you completely ignore verses which show that Jesus and the Father were one in essence.

So the question from this verse is, "Who raised Jesus from the dead?" See if you can answer this question by the following verses:

John 2:19, "Jesus answered and said to them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up" (Emphasis added)

Except for this verse there is nowhere else where the gospels state that Jesus will raise Himself up. The other references to Christ's resurrection all state that He will be risen up (Matt. 16:21; 17:23; 20:19; 27:63). It is clear from this verse - from the Lord's own lips, in fact, that Jesus is talking about His won resurrection. If that were not clear to you, then verse 21 should clear it up.

However, what do we do with these verses?:

Rom. 8:11 "And if the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who indwells you." (Emphasis added)

Acts 10:40, "This One God raised on the third day..." (Emphasis added)

And so on...no need to quote all the verses here.

So who's wrong here? If Jesus did not raise Himself then He is wrong to have stated such before His death. If God did not raise Jesus, then the apostles were wrong when they wrote that He did. Where's the disconnect here? Who rose Jesus from the dead? Did He resurrect Himself, or did God raise Him from the dead? For that matter, who indwells us according to Rom. 8:11? Does the Holy Spirit indwell us alone, does Christ indwell us, or does the entire Triune God indwell us?

AGain,

You tried to show Jesus saying his "oneness" with the father to account for have TWO witnesses or more and Jesus seperates himself from the father...one plus one is two, but according to you, one plus one equils one. You did not asnwer the question.

I did answer the question; and quite thoroghly, I think. One times one equals one.

Further

John 17

20 "I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

How are Jesus and his father one? Just like we should be one with them. In Purpose, for Jesus was sent to do his father's will, and complete his purpose, just like are susposed to do

Wrong. Why did you start with verse 20 here instead of verse 5, where the Lord Jesus states that He existed before the world's foundation with the Father? Why did you not start with verse 8, which states clearly that Jesus came forth from (In the Greek - from the side of, or from/with) the Father?

The oneness described in John 17:21 is not a simple oneness of opinion or a oneness of purpose. The greek word is a simple singular word meaning literally - one. Therefore, the "let them be one" in the beginning of the verse must be the same as the "even as we are" in verse 11, and in verses 22 and 23. Do you follow?

So this passage declares the wonderful and mysterious oneness that Jesus Christ shares with the Father: Jesus is in the Father (v. 21; John 14:20), the Father is in Jesus (John 10:38; 14:10-11), and in spirit the believers are one with one another by virtue of our co-existent oneness in the Triune God (John 14:20; 1 Cor. 1:30; Rom. 8:1; John 14:3). So we are in the Triune God and the Triune God is in us. This is the essential factor of our oneness in the church, which is also the Body of Christ. It is so much more than simply a unity of thought or purpose.

STOP tyring to use Chirst as saying he is "one" as being the samebeing as God, for clearly the context is wrong. THe same purpose is in CHrist as GOD SENT HIM. IF jesus was God did GOd send God?

the scritpures are clear about God and Jesus being seperate.

Again, you are presenting an unbalanced view of the two aspects of the Lord Jesus. As a man Jesus was commissioned by God to carry out eternal redemption for mankind. Yet that does not mean that Jesus Christ was ever not God incarnate.

Do you read your own posts, look at what you rea claiming, Luke says God had to become "like man" in Hebrews...that is baloney! God crated man! Why would he have to become like us? He knows exactly what we are. Jesus took on OUR nature as a man (do you deny this?) then he died (a mortal man, do you deny this?)

Do you have any Scripture to back up your claim that Jesus Christ was anything less than what He Himself claimed to be? Does God exist on a linear plane of space and time? Is He limited by that plane? Is God limited in any way at all? Then why do you have such difficulty believing that: A) God became a man, B) God went through all the experiences related to living within the confined of a human body, C) God went to the cross to accomplish an eternal redemption for mankind, and D) God accomplished a complete and all-inclusive salvation so that He could dwell in you, be lived out through you, and be expressed corporately in His Body, which is the incorporation of all the members mutually?

Then as Godman tried to say, JEsus transformed his own nature into immorralyt...the scritpures speak agaisnt this.

I did not say that. Please go back and re-read my response to you, and try not to misquote.

[BigD]

John 2:19, "Jesus answered and said to them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up" (Emphasis added)

John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in Himself; so hath He given to the Son to have life in himself;

Now read John 2:19 in the light of John 5:26 and see what Jesus actually meant by it

[Ovedya]

In the old testament God didnt use the Son to talk to us ..Jesus the Son's interaction only started in the NT ..the OT sightings, they are what the scripture says "angels of the Lord".

No, actually the OT reads, the Angel of the Lord. It's always singular, not plural. See my last response to Skillet on this.

burning fire and bush are creations ..God is a creator not the creation ..if we say that the burning bush was God then we have nothing in difference with a hindu brahmin who prays in the morning to the sun ..coz its a god to him ..

That's not true at all. What does Hinduism have to do with any of this? Nothing as far as I can see. Are you trying to limit God by saying that He cannot manifest Himself in any way that He pleases?

Just because God uses a creation to manifest His glory and power doesnt make Him that creation. Pillar of Smoke and Fire are Gods manifestations to lead the people of israel not God Himself. If the smoke and pillar of fire were God then why did Jesus say no one has ever seen God? ..Jesus was a perfect manifestation of Gods love and Gods plan for our salvation.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually, the versy reason that John wrote, "For no one has ever seen God..." was to show that Jesus was God, visibly.

Here is a verse which shows how God manifested himself to the children of Israel:

"And Jehovah went before them by day in a pillar of a cloud to lead them along the way, and a pillar of fire to give them light, that they might travel by day and by night" (Exo. 13:21, emphasis added).

The verses says, "Jehovah went." In the Hebrew that phrase means literally "to walk before." So how could these pillars simply be creations of God as you claim, and not manifestations of God Himself as the Scriptures so clearly state?

Let me ask you this, BigD: Is there any person in the Bible that is called by the name "wonderful" other than the Lord Jesus Christ (Isa. 9:6)?

[SkilletRocksMyFace]

There is a tone of stuff I would like to respond to right now, but I lack my concordance so I'll have to come back later to finish this post.

However the big proble with "God becomming a man" is in the fact that by nature, man's flesh is sinful, and God cannot have any part in sin. Not only that, but if God became man, then who would God's father be at that time, there must be two distinct people then. Because Jesus (God becomming man) is on earth, while Jesus prays to his father (who must be in heaven, but is God) a paradox?

Plus where is your scirputre to show that "Jesus" is "The angel" Of course we know who "the angel of the lord is" this is indeed Gabrial in Luke

Luke 1

18And Zechariah said to the angel, "How shall I know this? For I am an old man, and my wife is advanced in years." 19And the angel answered him, "I am Gabriel, who stands in the presence of God, and I was sent to speak to you and to bring you this good news.

Again

26In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, 27to a virgin betrothed[2] to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. And the virgin's name was Mary. 28And he came to her and said, "Greetings, O favored one, the Lord is with you!"[3] 29But she was greatly troubled at the saying, and tried to discern what sort of greeting this might be. 30And the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus. 32He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David, 33and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end."

34And Mary said to the angel, "How will this be, since I am a virgin?"[4]

35And the angel answered her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born[5] will be called holy--the Son of God. 36And behold, your relative Elizabeth in her old age has also conceived a son, and this is the sixth month with her who was called barren. 37For nothing will be impossible with God." 38And Mary said, "Behold, I am the servant[6] of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word." And the angel departed from her.

You are making the claim that JEsus is the angel of the lord in Exodus and the "head of the third party" You need to back that up with scritpure. God is surrounded by a multitude of angels "THe hebrew word ELOHIEM" you are making THE ASSUMPTION that Jesus is the angel? Sounds to me like you are tendeing towards Jehova's witness's now with Jesus being the arc angel micheal.

One times one is one, I agree, but that didn't answer the question. Look at Crhist words in John 8

15 You judge according to the flesh; I judge no one. 16 Yet even if I do judge, my judgment is true, for it is not I alone who judge, but I and the Father[1] who sent me. 17 In your Law it is written that the testimony of two men is true. 18 I am the one who bears witness about myself, and the Father who sent me bears witness about me."

Jesus answers the pharasies, there needed to be TWO wintnesses. Christ says

"It is not I alone who judge, but I and the Father who sent me" And "I am the one who bears witness about myself, AND THE FATHER who sent me"

From Christ's own lips how many people are being refered to here? TWO

One plus one equils two.

EVen if Jesus was God, how does one time one equilling one make two wintesses? That isn't what Christ said.

I will be back to post more on a more detailed basis once I get home.

Untill then, peace.

Edited November 17, 2004 by SkilletRocksMyFace

[Ovedya]

However the big proble with "God becomming a man" is in the fact that by nature, man's flesh is sinful, and God cannot have any part in sin.

I cleared that up in my last response to you by stating that Jesus was a perfect man, and that He had no sin.

Nevertheless, there is a notion that sin is passed down mainly from the male lineage. Therefore, reason would state that since Jesus' Father is God then He would not have inherited sin.

But whatever you believe concerning this, the Bible is clear that Jesus had no sin, nor did He at any time partake of such until it was placed upon Him at the cross.

Not only that, but if God became man, then who would God's father be at that time, there must be two distinct people then. Because Jesus (God becomming man) is on earth, while Jesus prays to his father (who must be in heaven, but is God) a paradox?

Yeah.....that's the old Arian logic at play. Sorry if that bothers you, bro., but it's just a fact. Rather than saying that "God prayed to God" it is more appropriate to say that Jesus prayed to God.

Also, the Son being incarnated as a man, to live as a man, and to step out of eternity, does not mean that 1/3 of the Trinity left heaven, as you would leave your house to go to the market, leaving it empty. While the Lord Jesus was on the earth, He was still in the heavens!

"And if I go and prepare a place for you, I am coming again and will receive you to Myself, so that where I am you also may be" (John 14:3, emphasis added)

So where is Jesus in this verse? He is in the Father - v. 10, 11, 20; 17:21, 24.

Where is the Father? He is in the heavens - Matt. 3:17; 5:16, 45, etc., etc.

Plus where is your scirputre to show that "Jesus" is "The angel" Of course we know who "the angel of the lord is" this is indeed Gabrial in Luke...

Wrong. Gabriel is not referred to as "The Angel of the Lord at any time in the passage you referenced. Nor is he ever referred to as such. In fact, the Bible giving his name differentiates between himself and the pre-incarnate Christ, who is titled "The Angel of the Lord" in both the Old Testament, and in the book of Revelation.

You are making the claim that JEsus is the angel of the lord in Exodus and the "head of the third party"

"Head of the third party"??? I never used that phrase at all.

God is surrounded by a multitude of angels "THe hebrew word ELOHIEM" you are making THE ASSUMPTION that Jesus is the angel? Sounds to me like you are tendeing towards Jehova's witness's now with Jesus being the arc angel micheal.

I never wrote that eaither. Neither have I assumed anything about the Lord being the archangel Michael. Could you please answer the question that I posed to BigD, also? Is there any other person in the Bible that is called "wonderful" other than the Lord Jesus (Isa. 9:6)?

[Ovedya]

John 2:19, "Jesus answered and said to them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up" (Emphasis added)

John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in Himself; so hath He given to the Son to have life in himself;

Now read John 2:19 in the light of John 5:26 and see what Jesus actually meant by it

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

However, the Bible never says that God gave Jesus the power to raise Himself from the dead; neither did Jesus ever claim that He had done so. Furthermore, the argument that God gave Jesus that power opens up a whole new set of problems. For if it had been so, then we would have to ask why the apostles wrote that God raised Him from the dead, instead of them writing that, "Jesus raised Himself with power given by God." You see, you cannot credit God for raising Jesus from the dead when He did so Himself under the power that God gave Him. You have to credit God for only giving Jesus that power, and credit Jesus for raising Himself. The Bible never does this.

Therefore, we are still left with the questions that I asked concerning this.

[Matthitjah]

Skillet,

God Love ya friend.

Oh so because more than one person agree's with this belief it must be right mr. luke?

Mt

[BigD]

However, the Bible never says that God gave Jesus the power to raise Himself from the dead; neither did Jesus ever claim that He had done so.

I believe in the word of God ..in His plan of salvation.

I say to you today ..destroy this temple and I will raise it up on the day of my Lord's second coming.

i can say the above sentence not on my own accord but by the faith i have in my Lord and saviour. The above sentence doesnt make me a liar ..and since i will be resurrected on the last day doesnt make me God or the Messiah.

Like I said if you look at John 2:19 in the light of John 5:26 and see that Jesus spoke in faith of the Father giving Him immortal life resurrecting Him ..

Mark 14:36 And he said, Abba, Father, all things [are] possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.

If Jesus was God and the trinity were true then you should agree that though they hold three "offices" their inner essence or will is the same ..then why does Jesus pray "not what I will, but what Thou will" ?? are their wills different? ..

"While Jesus was here on earth, he offered prayers and pleadings, with a loud cry and tears, to the one who could deliver him out of death. And God heard his prayers because of his reverence for God."

Hebrews 5:7

If Jesus did actually have the power to raise Himself from the dead without the Father 'coz He is 100% god Himself then ..why was he crying with tears and praying and pleading? Doesnt He know He is God?