Have the seal judgements begun? by Jack Kelly

[Little One]

I'm not rich; I do the will of the Father (even through confession), I love others as Christ has loved me, I love others as I love myself (better, since I really don't like myself). I do all these things. Yet you think I have to go through the first 6 seal judgments. Scripture will contradict you. I am saved out of it, not from it.

1. So does that mean that all who have suffered for Christ were somehow being punished or judged?

2. If someone has wealth, does that mean they are not saved or that they need to suffer because they are wealthy?

3. What are you saved out of? Where does Scripture state we are saved out of something? Jesus said we would suffer and be persecuted...and many Christians around

the world are under terrible persecution. Wonder what they did to bring that on themselves.

4. That appears to have brought us full circle...please feel free to have another go

RE: 2. If someone has wealth, does that mean they are not saved or that they need to suffer because they are wealthy?

1 Timothy 6:9-11 (NIV)

Those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.

The desire for wealth and the desire for God are contradictory and compete for our loyalty. As long as we have enough money in this world, we "feel" secure. But let our finances become shakey and we "feel" scared. See how easily money takes the place of God in our minds and hearts as the source of all we have? See how our ability to earn and have money provides us with a false sense of security that God alone provides?

^{Deuteronomy 8:10-20}

When you have eaten and are satisfied, praise the Lord your God for the good land he has given you. Be careful that you do not forget the Lord your God, failing to observe his commands, his laws and his decrees that I am giving you this day. Otherwise, when you eat and are satisfied, when you build fine houses and settle down, and when your herds and flocks grow large and your silver and gold increase and all you have is multiplied, then your heart will become proud and you will forget the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. He led you through the vast and dreadful wilderness, that thirsty and waterless land, with its venomous snakes and scorpions. He brought you water out of hard rock. He gave you manna to eat in the wilderness, something your ancestors had never known, to humble and test you so that in the end it might go well with you. You may say to yourself, “My power and the strength of my hands have produced this wealth for me.” But remember the Lord your God, for it is he who gives you the ability to produce wealth, and so confirms his covenant, which he swore to your ancestors, as it is today.

If you ever forget the Lord your God and follow other gods and worship and bow down to them, I testify against you today that you will surely be destroyed. Like the nations the Lord destroyed before you, so you will be destroyed for not obeying the Lord your God.

Wealth was not intended to be hoarded by the few. Neither is it given so those who have the most can be exalted in the eyes of men and catered to like they were better than (>)others (<). Wealth is given to people by God to spread it around -- so that everyone has plenty not so the few have the most and can live like kings.

Luke 12:48

"From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked."

[Little One]

2. If someone has wealth, does that mean they are not saved or that they need to suffer because they are wealthy?

That line of thinking is liberation theology, a false gospel.

(Not singling you out sevenseas.)

RE: That line of thinking is liberation theology, a false gospel.

Would you please support your statement with a quote from the True Gospel.

[Little One]

I am always surprised at the stance some take against those who have been blessed with much of this world's wealth. Jesus Himself spoke about the servants to whom the master gave a certain amount of money and in return they were to invest it for him. What did He say about the one who was given the most? Luke 12:48 gives the answer -

For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.

Who has been able to give so that the gospel can be spread about the earth? I do not say that all those who have much have done the right thing with the wealth that has been given to them but as one sees above it is from them that much will be required by the Father. They will be accountable to Him for what they have done with the wealth that has been entrusted to them. We are each accountable for what we have and what we have done with it - for the Lord or for ourselves (not that one cannot use the wealth that has been given to us for our own use) but rather what we have done with the $1000.00, $10,000.00, $100,000.00, $1,000,000.00 or more should we be so blessed but to say that having money is wrong here on earth is to me not scriptural - it is what we do with/not with it that will accuse us.

PS that wealth does not just refer to finances it also refers to time, intellect and work - how do you use that with which you have been blessed?

Mark 4:18-19

"Still others, like seed sown among thorns, hear the word; but the worries of this life, the deceitfulness of wealth and the desires for other things come in and choke the word, making it unfruitful."

We live in a world in which money is the common language and speech as well as the medium of exchange for anything and everything. This is what makes the potential to have a lot of it so deceitful. "You're worth it," wealth says. "You've earned it and you deserve it."

Indeed, in this world, "Money talks" and "every man has his price," are common sayings. Why?

If you walked down the street and offered every person you met either a Bible or $100, which do you think most would choose? While $100 might feed their bodies or fulfill their whims for a few days, the truth contained in the Bible could free and feed their spirits forever. Yet most would value and therefore choose money over a Bible because their treasure is in this physical-material world -- not in the "world" to come.

Luke 18:22-25; :29-30

“You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” When he heard this, he became very sad, because he was very wealthy. Jesus looked at him and said, “How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God! Indeed, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”...

“Truly I tell you,” Jesus said to them, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or sisters or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God will fail to receive many times as much in this age, and in the age to come eternal life.”

[Littlelambseativy]

But the point of having wealth be it money, knowledge, talents etc is all the same. If you do not use the money wisely and give to the poor or for the spreading of the gospel, if you have knowledge and use it for destruction of the poor or to gain wealth or if you have talent and you use it for wealth in the secular world where you do not honour God but gain fame and wealth is there any difference? It is not what you have it is what you do with that with which God has blessed you. If anyone rich or poor does anything for self and does not honour God or bring Him glory all is for naught! Money is just one thing. We each have a talent or ability that can honour or dishonour God - money is just one of those things. What we do for God is what lasts no matter if we have talent or money or wisdom or the ability to work with our hands it is what God has given us - the "talent" what you do with it is what God will judge - not man.

[Sevenseas]

Little One:

The question asked...not to you, but if you want to cover it, that's fine, was:

2. If someone has wealth, does that mean they are not saved or that they need to suffer because they are wealthy?

Near as I can make out, this is your response:

Those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.

The desire for wealth and the desire for God are contradictory and compete for our loyalty. As long as we have enough money in this world, we "feel" secure. But let our finances become shakey and we "feel" scared. See how easily money takes the place of God in our minds and hearts as the source of all we have? See how our ability to earn and have money provides us with a false sense of security that God alone provides?

It appears you have misunderstood the question. I was not bringing up the love of money. However, it has been my observation that those who do not have money are quick to state that they don't want it.

I am not saying you have no money, I am saying that I don't think you understood the application of my question or, you just wanted the opportunity to quote those verses.

I find your definition to be adding somewhat, to grace and simple faith. Jesus spoke those words to someone still under law. We are not under law.

For your information, I am not accumulating sums of wealth...just payin the bills, no doubt, as you are.

I don't know why you appeared to have thought you needed to take this to the nth degree

You have taken my post way off course...this may be your own personal hobby horse, but it is not mine. There is nothing wrong with money...the problem is actually a lack of love

as per I Cor 13....seems it does not matter if you even die, if you don't love, God does not care...in Corinthians we learn that even if you give it all away and are a superior Christian

in every way that those who judge such things take note, if you don't love, it means.....n o t h i n g

This seems to be one of those threads in which much ado about nothing goes on for several pages until finally it gets shut down because it becomes personal.

[Sevenseas]

I don't understand that thinking either

The Rapture has nothing to do with being "freed" from any kind of lifestyle, whether luxurious or austere. That is not what the Rapture is about. Most do not understand the Rapture because they have no clue as to what it is for. It is not a reward, or an escape hatch, or any of the things that people who are anti-rapture often falsely label it as. And every time they label it in such terms they display that they do not understand what the Rapture is for and they do not understand the larger picture of what the end times are about and focus upon.

I seldom get involved in these discussions and reading on in the thread, I have just convinced myself that is probably not a bad idea. There are some very silly statements in this thread

and some no doubt, would include my own.

Thanks ~

[Montana Marv]

Go to the other foot.

Many who are poor wish they were rich. They covet someone elses wealth. A poor person can covet just as a weathy person can covet (money).

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Sevenseas]

Go to the other foot.

Many who are poor wish they were rich. They covet someone elses wealth. A poor person can covet just as a weathy person can covet (money).

In Christ

Montana Marv

Yes, but those people are often in denial

[Little One]

But the point of having wealth be it money, knowledge, talents etc is all the same. If you do not use the money wisely and give to the poor or for the spreading of the gospel, if you have knowledge and use it for destruction of the poor or to gain wealth or if you have talent and you use it for wealth in the secular world where you do not honour God but gain fame and wealth is there any difference? It is not what you have it is what you do with that with which God has blessed you. If anyone rich or poor does anything for self and does not honour God or bring Him glory all is for naught! Money is just one thing. We each have a talent or ability that can honour or dishonour God - money is just one of those things. What we do for God is what lasts no matter if we have talent or money or wisdom or the ability to work with our hands it is what God has given us - the "talent" what you do with it is what God will judge - not man.

Amen! Some people get their panties all in a bunch at anyone coming between them and their money -- even when what's said is directly from The Lord's own mouth. The degree of one's resistence to The Word reveals an area in which their priorities should be examined. It's a "sore" subject for them, which should tell them something very important. Instead, they get vicious and insulting, which is definitely not of God. Such attitude merely proves Christ's word that no one can serve two masters.

[Little One]

2. If someone has wealth, does that mean they are not saved or that they need to suffer because they are wealthy?

That line of thinking is liberation theology, a false gospel.

(Not singling you out sevenseas.)

RE: That line of thinking is liberation theology, a false gospel.

Would you please support your statement with a quote from the True Gospel.

Your answer might reveal something as to your motives. Because you do not question what Liberation Theology is. And Liberation Theology was formulated and espoused by factions within a specific denomination.

The fact is, for the last couple of days, the posts you make condemn wealth in any form. So that sounds like Liberation Theology, and/or Social Doctrine. However:

Job 42:10-17 10 After Job had prayed for his friends, the LORD made him prosperous again and gave him twice as much as he had before. 11 All his brothers and sisters and everyone who had known him before came and ate with him in his house. They comforted and consoled him over all the trouble the LORD had brought upon him, and each one gave him a piece of silver and a gold ring. 12 The LORD blessed the latter part of Job's life more than the first. He had fourteen thousand sheep, six thousand camels, a thousand yoke of oxen and a thousand donkeys. 13 And he also had seven sons and three daughters. 14 The first daughter he named Jemimah, the second Keziah and the third Keren-Happuch. 15 Nowhere in all the land were there found women as beautiful as Job's daughters, and their father granted them an inheritance along with their brothers. 16 After this, Job lived a hundred and forty years; he saw his children and their children to the fourth generation. 17 And so he died, old and full of years.

As long as you have these passages in the Bible, Liberation Theology is a horse standing on one wooden leg. Job had great wealth. He had even more after his testing. David had great wealth and God calls David a man after His own heart. Solomon had great wealth and God had Him build a temple to Him. Jehoshaphat had great wealth and he was devoted to the ways of the Lord. So your continual assertions that wealth is always condemned rings hollow. Wealth is not condemned, in and of itself. Mis-use of wealth, and love of wealth for it's own sake is condemned. Jesus says of the rich man that it is hard for him to find the way to heaven, not impossible.

I have not "condemned wealth in any form," sir. This is simply the "spin" you -- who obviously love money -- put on the scriptures I have quoted that touch on that nerve. I do not question the brand of theology you mention because I've never heard of them to subscribe to them. The only theology and doctrine I subscribe to is The Word of God, period. So stop trying to squeeze me into one box or another in your judgmental labeling system so you can condemn what I've said. I stand on the Word of God alone.

The reason God gave Job twice as much as he had before he lost it all is because Job did not stop believing in God after he lost it all, as many Christians would do today if what happened to Job were to happen to them. So unless you've experienced something like Job did, using Job's situation to justify your fondness for wealth is not valid.

You still have not quoted the True Gospel to support your views. Could that be because you can't find anything in the Gospel to support your view?