Are people in Heaven?

[OneLight]

Shalom Burch.

 

I am not sure I understand exactly what you are saying.  This is what I have gotten so far from what I have read from your posts:

• You do not believe we have a spirit.
• We are not destined to be in His kingdom, but to rule here on the New Earth.
• We basically "soul sleep" until we are physically resurrected.

Am I correct or am I misunderstanding you?

Hi OneLight,

 

The spirit that we have is God's spirit/breath that is breathed into every living creature. I am saying that when God takes His spirit/breath back there is nothing in a man to live on.

Scripture tells us in Genesis 2:7 " And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being." and again in Genesis 1:27 "So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them."

We see that God gave us the breath of Life, not His Spirit upon creation. God created us in His image. An image is only a likeness and not the original. We do not have the spirit of God, but a spirit God created, when we are born. Like God, we are triune in nature.

We are destined for His kingdom, that Kingdom will be on earth.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by soul sleep. The Scriptures define a soul as a body and the breath/spirit of God. It would seem that when those two are separated there is no more soul to sleep.

Soul sleep is a belief that when a person dies, their whole being remains in a state of sleep until they are physically resurrected to be with Christ. It sounds a lot like what you described, so I asked.

When God retrieves His Spirit man is dead and remains dead until God breathes His breath/spirit back into that man at the resurrection.

I would like you to provide scripture that states this. What I have read in scripture, from 2 Corinthians 5:1-8

"For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. For we walk by faith, not by sight. We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord."

The Spirit being spoken of is the Holy Spirit we are baptized in, being sealed until day of redemption, as seen below.

Ephesians 1:13-14

"In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory."

and again in

Ephesians 4:29-30

"Let no corrupt word proceed out of your mouth, but what is good for necessary edification, that it may impart grace to the hearers. And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption."

[OneLight]

It's in the Scriptures. I've seen it taught in church also. It's just a matter of going back to what was originally taught.

That is pretty vague. I was hoping for much more substance from someone who claims we don't have a spirit.

What are you looking for that I haven't already presented? No one has made a case for this "other" spirit in a man.

I am trying to find where you are coming from, to better understand your teachings. I asked about you, since you seem to be here to debate what we hold as true.

Myself, I have sat under many different teachers for the Baptist church, Assembly of God church, and various non-denominational church, along with elders I have made friends with throughout my life. I study daily since I have given myself over to Christ, to be His servant. His Spirit does teach me much more than people can. In all my studies, there is nothing to indicate that we do not have a spirit. I could repeat the scripture others have provided, but that would be redundant.

[Butch5]

 

 

 

It's in the Scriptures. I've seen it taught in church also. It's just a matter of going back to what was originally taught.

That is pretty vague. I was hoping for much more substance from someone who claims we don't have a spirit.

 

What are you looking for that I haven't already presented? No one has made a case for this "other" spirit in a man.

 

I am trying to find where you are coming from, to better understand your teachings. I asked about you, since you seem to be here to debate what we hold as true.

Myself, I have sat under many different teachers for the Baptist church, Assembly of God church, and various non-denominational church, along with elders I have made friends with throughout my life. I study daily since I have given myself over to Christ, to be His servant. His Spirit does teach me much more than people can. In all my studies, there is nothing to indicate that we do not have a spirit. I could repeat the scripture others have provided, but that would be redundant.

 

Hi OneLight,

 

If one comes to the text with the idea that man has a spirit other than that of God, it can be read into the text. However, if one comes to the text with a blank slate looking at just what the Scriptures say it's not likely they'll come to that conclusion. The Genesis account of creation explains how God created man and the only breath/spirit mentioned is God's. It says that God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed the breath/spirit of life into the man and the man became a living soul. This shows that a soul consists of a body and the breath of God. There is nothing else mentioned in the creation of man. Adam was alive with just a body and God's breath/spirit. Job said that if God were to retrieve His breath/spirit all flesh would die. Solomon goes even farther and says that man is no different than the animal in that they both have "one" breath/spirit. We know from the creation account that that breath/spirit is God's. Just like Job he indicates that if that breath/spirit is removed from the man the man dies, he returns to dust. In all of these accounts  there is nothing said of any other spirit in a man.

 

If a case is going to be made that a man has a spirit that lives on after death a case needs to be made as above showing from the Scriptures where this spirit is created or where man receives this "other" breath/spirit that is not God's .but man's. That is what I've been asking these guys to do. The passages that have been posted do not build a case for this "other" breath/spirit, they simply assume it. To claim that when Paul says, 'your spirit' proves that man has another breath/spirit isn't building a case it's assuming the premise. 'Your spirit' doesn't have to mean a man has a breath/spirit other than God's. We use similar language today. For example I've heard people say I bought xyz with my money. My money? It's not their money, all US currency is property of the US government. However, because an individual has possession of it he calls it his money. Another example is to say one cannot catch their breath. When someone hears that they don't assume that that person owns the air they are breathing. It's called their breath because they are breathing it. Likewise if every living thing has God's breath/spirit in it it wouldn't be odd to refer to that which is in a person as your spirit. It doesn't require that 'your spirit' be a different breath/spirit than that which is God's. Since the Scriptures don't build a case for any other breath/spirit in a man other than God's it seems that those passages that say 'your spirit' need to be understood in a manner similar to what I put forth above.

 

If you're interested in studying this idea further I can give you a link to a very detailed and in depth study on this issue. It's an audio series but it's about 21 hours long. As I said it is in depth.

[Butch5]

 

 

Shalom Burch.

 

I am not sure I understand exactly what you are saying.  This is what I have gotten so far from what I have read from your posts:

• You do not believe we have a spirit.
• We are not destined to be in His kingdom, but to rule here on the New Earth.
• We basically "soul sleep" until we are physically resurrected.

Am I correct or am I misunderstanding you?

 

Hi OneLight,

 

The spirit that we have is God's spirit/breath that is breathed into every living creature. I am saying that when God takes His spirit/breath back there is nothing in a man to live on.

 

Scripture tells us in Genesis 2:7 " And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being." and again in Genesis 1:27 "So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them."

We see that God gave us the breath of Life, not His Spirit upon creation. God created us in His image. An image is only a likeness and not the original. We do not have the spirit of God, but a spirit God created, when we are born. Like God, we are triune in nature.

We are destined for His kingdom, that Kingdom will be on earth.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by soul sleep. The Scriptures define a soul as a body and the breath/spirit of God. It would seem that when those two are separated there is no more soul to sleep.

Soul sleep is a belief that when a person dies, their whole being remains in a state of sleep until they are physically resurrected to be with Christ. It sounds a lot like what you described, so I asked.

When God retrieves His Spirit man is dead and remains dead until God breathes His breath/spirit back into that man at the resurrection.

I would like you to provide scripture that states this. What I have read in scripture, from 2 Corinthians 5:1-8

"For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. For we walk by faith, not by sight. We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord."

The Spirit being spoken of is the Holy Spirit we are baptized in, being sealed until day of redemption, as seen below.

Ephesians 1:13-14

"In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory."

and again in

Ephesians 4:29-30

"Let no corrupt word proceed out of your mouth, but what is good for necessary edification, that it may impart grace to the hearers. And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption."

 

Actually, the words translated breath and spirit are the same word. There are two Greek words that translated as breath/spirit.

[OneLight]

Actually, the words translated breath and spirit are the same word. There are two Greek words that translated as breath/spirit.

 

Genesis 2:7 was not written in Greek, but Hebrew.  the word used for breath-of is nshmth.

 

H5397  nshamah  nesh-aw-maw'

from H5395;

a puff, i.e. wind, angry or vital breath, divine inspiration, intellect. or (concretely) an animal.

The Greek word for spirit is pneuma

 

G4151  pneuma  pnyoo'-mah

from G4154;

a current of air, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively, a spirit, i.e. (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, demon, or (divine) God, Christ's spirit, the Holy Spirit. Compare G5590.

KJV: ghost, life, spirit(-ual, -ually), mind.

They are not the same.

 

Care to show your evidence that it is?

[Floatingaxe]

 

 

 

 

It's in the Scriptures. I've seen it taught in church also. It's just a matter of going back to what was originally taught.

That is pretty vague. I was hoping for much more substance from someone who claims we don't have a spirit.

 

What are you looking for that I haven't already presented? No one has made a case for this "other" spirit in a man.

 

I am trying to find where you are coming from, to better understand your teachings. I asked about you, since you seem to be here to debate what we hold as true.

Myself, I have sat under many different teachers for the Baptist church, Assembly of God church, and various non-denominational church, along with elders I have made friends with throughout my life. I study daily since I have given myself over to Christ, to be His servant. His Spirit does teach me much more than people can. In all my studies, there is nothing to indicate that we do not have a spirit. I could repeat the scripture others have provided, but that would be redundant.

 

Hi OneLight,

 

If one comes to the text with the idea that man has a spirit other than that of God, it can be read into the text. However, if one comes to the text with a blank slate looking at just what the Scriptures say it's not likely they'll come to that conclusion. The Genesis account of creation explains how God created man and the only breath/spirit mentioned is God's. It says that God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed the breath/spirit of life into the man and the man became a living soul. This shows that a soul consists of a body and the breath of God. There is nothing else mentioned in the creation of man. Adam was alive with just a body and God's breath/spirit. Job said that if God were to retrieve His breath/spirit all flesh would die. Solomon goes even farther and says that man is no different than the animal in that they both have "one" breath/spirit. We know from the creation account that that breath/spirit is God's. Just like Job he indicates that if that breath/spirit is removed from the man the man dies, he returns to dust. In all of these accounts  there is nothing said of any other spirit in a man.

 

If a case is going to be made that a man has a spirit that lives on after death a case needs to be made as above showing from the Scriptures where this spirit is created or where man receives this "other" breath/spirit that is not God's .but man's. That is what I've been asking these guys to do. The passages that have been posted do not build a case for this "other" breath/spirit, they simply assume it. To claim that when Paul says, 'your spirit' proves that man has another breath/spirit isn't building a case it's assuming the premise. 'Your spirit' doesn't have to mean a man has a breath/spirit other than God's. We use similar language today. For example I've heard people say I bought xyz with my money. My money? It's not their money, all US currency is property of the US government. However, because an individual has possession of it he calls it his money. Another example is to say one cannot catch their breath. When someone hears that they don't assume that that person owns the air they are breathing. It's called their breath because they are breathing it. Likewise if every living thing has God's breath/spirit in it it wouldn't be odd to refer to that which is in a person as your spirit. It doesn't require that 'your spirit' be a different breath/spirit than that which is God's. Since the Scriptures don't build a case for any other breath/spirit in a man other than God's it seems that those passages that say 'your spirit' need to be understood in a manner similar to what I put forth above.

 

If you're interested in studying this idea further I can give you a link to a very detailed and in depth study on this issue. It's an audio series but it's about 21 hours long. As I said it is in depth.

 

 

 

'Soul' is a word that refers to both the part of man that consists of the mind, will and emotions--the personality, and it ALSO refers to the PERSON. When you read that man became a living soul, it is merely stating in Old English verbiage that man became a LIVING PERSON. You make a huge argument out of something you misunderstand from the get-go.

 

Make a new start at this topic by studying from a modern English version of the scriptures.

 

Genesis 2:7 (NLT)

⁷ Then the Lord God formed the man from the dust of the ground. He breathed the breath of life into the man’s nostrils, and the man became a living person.

 

When God breathed into the man He formed from the dust, He was still CREATING! Every man since Adam and Eve has that same spirit within. In the unbeliever, it is rather dormant, but in the believer, it is quickened to life because of faith in Jesus Christ, and Holy Spirit comes to dwell there---never to leave! Therefore when the Christian dies, the spirit, indwelt by the Spirit of God, goes to be with Jesus, where it belongs! Jesus tells us that we will be where He is, forever, and that starts with salvation.

[OneLight]

It's in the Scriptures. I've seen it taught in church also. It's just a matter of going back to what was originally taught.

That is pretty vague. I was hoping for much more substance from someone who claims we don't have a spirit.

What are you looking for that I haven't already presented? No one has made a case for this "other" spirit in a man.

I am trying to find where you are coming from, to better understand your teachings. I asked about you, since you seem to be here to debate what we hold as true.

Myself, I have sat under many different teachers for the Baptist church, Assembly of God church, and various non-denominational church, along with elders I have made friends with throughout my life. I study daily since I have given myself over to Christ, to be His servant. His Spirit does teach me much more than people can. In all my studies, there is nothing to indicate that we do not have a spirit. I could repeat the scripture others have provided, but that would be redundant.

Hi OneLight,

 

If one comes to the text with the idea that man has a spirit other than that of God, it can be read into the text. However, if one comes to the text with a blank slate looking at just what the Scriptures say it's not likely they'll come to that conclusion. The Genesis account of creation explains how God created man and the only breath/spirit mentioned is God's. It says that God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed the breath/spirit of life into the man and the man became a living soul. This shows that a soul consists of a body and the breath of God. There is nothing else mentioned in the creation of man. Adam was alive with just a body and God's breath/spirit. Job said that if God were to retrieve His breath/spirit all flesh would die. Solomon goes even farther and says that man is no different than the animal in that they both have "one" breath/spirit. We know from the creation account that that breath/spirit is God's. Just like Job he indicates that if that breath/spirit is removed from the man the man dies, he returns to dust. In all of these accounts  there is nothing said of any other spirit in a man.

 

If a case is going to be made that a man has a spirit that lives on after death a case needs to be made as above showing from the Scriptures where this spirit is created or where man receives this "other" breath/spirit that is not God's .but man's. That is what I've been asking these guys to do. The passages that have been posted do not build a case for this "other" breath/spirit, they simply assume it. To claim that when Paul says, 'your spirit' proves that man has another breath/spirit isn't building a case it's assuming the premise. 'Your spirit' doesn't have to mean a man has a breath/spirit other than God's. We use similar language today. For example I've heard people say I bought xyz with my money. My money? It's not their money, all US currency is property of the US government. However, because an individual has possession of it he calls it his money. Another example is to say one cannot catch their breath. When someone hears that they don't assume that that person owns the air they are breathing. It's called their breath because they are breathing it. Likewise if every living thing has God's breath/spirit in it it wouldn't be odd to refer to that which is in a person as your spirit. It doesn't require that 'your spirit' be a different breath/spirit than that which is God's. Since the Scriptures don't build a case for any other breath/spirit in a man other than God's it seems that those passages that say 'your spirit' need to be understood in a manner similar to what I put forth above.

 

If you're interested in studying this idea further I can give you a link to a very detailed and in depth study on this issue. It's an audio series but it's about 21 hours long. As I said it is in depth.

 

I see you spent a little time answering, but fail to answer my question or give any form of statement where you learned your theology.

I answered your idea that breath meant spirit in my first reply to you above. You will not find that God breathed His Spirit into us upon creation, but a breath. Care top rebut my scripture with scripture instead of only human reasoning? I ask because I don't have time to argue human reasoning, but I do for scripture.

[Butch5]

 

Actually, the words translated breath and spirit are the same word. There are two Greek words that translated as breath/spirit.

 

Genesis 2:7 was not written in Greek, but Hebrew.  the word used for breath-of is nshmth.

 

H5397  nshamah  nesh-aw-maw'

from H5395;

a puff, i.e. wind, angry or vital breath, divine inspiration, intellect. or (concretely) an animal.

 

The Greek word for spirit is pneuma

 

G4151  pneuma  pnyoo'-mah

from G4154;

a current of air, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively, a spirit, i.e. (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, demon, or (divine) God, Christ's spirit, the Holy Spirit. Compare G5590.

KJV: ghost, life, spirit(-ual, -ually), mind.

 

They are not the same.

 

Care to show your evidence that it is?

 

Hi Onelight,

 

I suggested a word study not just the definition two words. There is a lot more involved than just looking at the definition of two words. However, I will address what you've posted here.  Neshama does mean breath and is the word used ion Gen 2:7 for breath in the breath of life. However, "Ruach" is also a word that means breath or wind. The phrase "Breath of Life" that is in Gen 2:7 also appears elsewhere in Genesis.

 

KJV Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

KJV Genesis 6:17 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.

KJV Genesis 7:15 And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.

KJV Genesis 7:22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.

 

In Genesis 2:7 and 7:22, the phrase "Breath of life" uses the word "neshama". In the verses 6:17 and 7:15 the phrase "breath of life" uses the "ruwach. The words are interchangeable and ruwach is also translated "pnuma" in the Septuagint. There are other places where the words are interchangeable a study of these words alone with the word "nepehsh" translated "soul" among others will reveal quite a bit about what a man is and how he is created.

 

In looking at your post I have to ask, if you don't believe that Neshamah is God's spirit are you arguing that man has no spirit at all? It seems that if neshamah is not God's spirit there is one of two options, either man has no spirit or man has been given this spirit after the creation. If man has been given a spirit after creation please show where this is taught in Scriptures, this is what I've been trying to get these guys to do.

[Floatingaxe]

Genesis 2:7 (AMP)

 

7 Then the Lord God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath or spirit of life, and man became a living being.

[Butch5]

Genesis 2:7 (AMP)

 

7 Then the Lord God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath or spirit of life, and man became a living being.

Are you trying to prove my point?