Are people in Heaven?

[asper]

 

 

 

Hi butch,

 

You are still missing the point.

 

Whether it is spirit or soul or spirit and soul or whatever it is doesn’t matter to the original argument which is that we will be in heaven even though our body lies here on earth dead.

 

Php 1:21  For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

22  But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.

23  For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

24  Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

25  And having this confidence, I know that I shall abide and continue with you all for your furtherance and joy of faith;

 

We are tri beings just like our Maker.

 

Ge 1:26  And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

 

1Th 5:23  And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

Again, more verses below which prove that we will be in heaven while our bodies lie here on earth dead if we die before the Lord’s return.

 

2Co 5:6  Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

7  (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

8  We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

 

1Th 4:14  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

 

 

And yes there is no guess when we receive a new spirit which is distinguished between that and Spirit of God. (New replaces the old one that we had)

 

Eze 36:26  A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27       And       I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

 

There are two different spirits in the verse below unless of course God is talking to Himself.

 

Ro 8:16  The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

 

Any questions?

 

You might want to respond to the Scriptures that are presented and I am sure that you will not deny what is plainly said.

 

God bless,

Tony

What do you think these prove? You've posted passages without their context. I didn't see a single passage that said anything about people going to heaven when they die.

 

I have one question, you posted these passages to prove that people go to Heaven when they die. How come not one of the passages mentions Heaven?

 

 

 

Hi butch,

 

Really?

 

And just where do you suppose Jesus and God are?

 

Mr 16:19  So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

 

Ac 2:33  Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

 

Ac 7:55  But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

 

 

Let me know if you need more.

 

God bless,

Tony

 

As I said, none of the passages you presented even mentioned Heaven, therefore I have to conclude that you are "inferring" that idea and not getting it from the Scriptures.

 

Regarding the passages here,

 

⁷ Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? ⁸ If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. (Psa 139:1 KJG)

 

It would seem that there is nowhere one can go to get away from God's presents.

 

However, as I said, you've inferred that idea, It's not that the Scriptures teach it. You posted passages about Jesus being at the right hand of God in Heaven. He also said that people couldn't go there.

 

³² The Pharisees heard that the people murmured such things concerning him; and the Pharisees and the chief priests sent officers to take him.

³³ Then said Jesus unto them, Yet a little while am I with you, and then I go unto him that sent me.

³⁴ Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, thither ye cannot come.

³⁵ Then said the Jews among themselves, Whither will he go, that we shall not find him? will he go unto the dispersed among the Gentiles, and teach the Gentiles?

³⁶ What manner of saying is this that he said, Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, thither ye cannot come? (Joh 7:32-36 KJV)

 

²⁰ These words spake Jesus in the treasury, as he taught in the temple: and no man laid hands on him; for his hour was not yet come.

²¹ Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.

²² Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come.

(Joh 8:20-22 KJV)

 

³¹ Therefore, when he was gone out, Jesus said, Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him.

³² If God be glorified in him, God shall also glorify him in himself, and shall straightway glorify him.

³³ Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you. (Joh 13:31-33 KJV)

 

 

He told the Jews and His disciples that He was going to the one who sent Him and they could not go. In order for them to be with Him He needed to come back as He told them in John 14.

 

KJV John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

² In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

³ And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. (Joh 14:1-3 KJV)

 

 

It seems pretty clear that no one is going there.

 

However, if you'd put your passages in context and consider them you'd see that they are not saying what you believe they are.

 

 

 

 

Hi butch,

 

You are assuming a few things,

 

The truth is that those who never become born again will never be able to follow Him. There is no universal salvation so you can just remove your argument concerning those verses.

 

At that time the Born again believers couldn’t follow Him. That doesn’t mean they can’t now.

 

Joh 13:36  Simon Peter said unto him, Lord, whither goest thou? Jesus answered him, Whither I go, thou canst not follow me    now    ; but thou shalt follow me       afterwards.

 

So these verses are still true,

 

Php 1:21  For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

22  But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.

23  For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

24  Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

25  And having this confidence, I know that I shall abide and continue with you all for your furtherance and joy of faith;

 

2Co 5:6  Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

7  (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

8  We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

 

1Th 4:14  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

God bless,

Tony

[Butch5]

 

 

 

 

Hi butch,

 

You are still missing the point.

 

Whether it is spirit or soul or spirit and soul or whatever it is doesn’t matter to the original argument which is that we will be in heaven even though our body lies here on earth dead.

 

Php 1:21  For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

22  But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.

23  For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

24  Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

25  And having this confidence, I know that I shall abide and continue with you all for your furtherance and joy of faith;

 

We are tri beings just like our Maker.

 

Ge 1:26  And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

 

1Th 5:23  And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

Again, more verses below which prove that we will be in heaven while our bodies lie here on earth dead if we die before the Lord’s return.

 

2Co 5:6  Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

7  (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

8  We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

 

1Th 4:14  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

 

 

And yes there is no guess when we receive a new spirit which is distinguished between that and Spirit of God. (New replaces the old one that we had)

 

Eze 36:26  A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27       And       I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

 

There are two different spirits in the verse below unless of course God is talking to Himself.

 

Ro 8:16  The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

 

Any questions?

 

You might want to respond to the Scriptures that are presented and I am sure that you will not deny what is plainly said.

 

God bless,

Tony

What do you think these prove? You've posted passages without their context. I didn't see a single passage that said anything about people going to heaven when they die.

 

I have one question, you posted these passages to prove that people go to Heaven when they die. How come not one of the passages mentions Heaven?

 

 

 

Hi butch,

 

Really?

 

And just where do you suppose Jesus and God are?

 

Mr 16:19  So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

 

Ac 2:33  Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

 

Ac 7:55  But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

 

 

Let me know if you need more.

 

God bless,

Tony

 

As I said, none of the passages you presented even mentioned Heaven, therefore I have to conclude that you are "inferring" that idea and not getting it from the Scriptures.

 

Regarding the passages here,

 

⁷ Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? ⁸ If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. (Psa 139:1 KJG)

 

It would seem that there is nowhere one can go to get away from God's presents.

 

However, as I said, you've inferred that idea, It's not that the Scriptures teach it. You posted passages about Jesus being at the right hand of God in Heaven. He also said that people couldn't go there.

 

³² The Pharisees heard that the people murmured such things concerning him; and the Pharisees and the chief priests sent officers to take him.

³³ Then said Jesus unto them, Yet a little while am I with you, and then I go unto him that sent me.

³⁴ Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, thither ye cannot come.

³⁵ Then said the Jews among themselves, Whither will he go, that we shall not find him? will he go unto the dispersed among the Gentiles, and teach the Gentiles?

³⁶ What manner of saying is this that he said, Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, thither ye cannot come? (Joh 7:32-36 KJV)

 

²⁰ These words spake Jesus in the treasury, as he taught in the temple: and no man laid hands on him; for his hour was not yet come.

²¹ Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.

²² Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come.

(Joh 8:20-22 KJV)

 

³¹ Therefore, when he was gone out, Jesus said, Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him.

³² If God be glorified in him, God shall also glorify him in himself, and shall straightway glorify him.

³³ Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you. (Joh 13:31-33 KJV)

 

 

He told the Jews and His disciples that He was going to the one who sent Him and they could not go. In order for them to be with Him He needed to come back as He told them in John 14.

 

KJV John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

² In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

³ And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. (Joh 14:1-3 KJV)

 

 

It seems pretty clear that no one is going there.

 

However, if you'd put your passages in context and consider them you'd see that they are not saying what you believe they are.

 

 

 

 

Hi butch,

 

You are assuming a few things,

 

The truth is that those who never become born again will never be able to follow Him. There is no universal salvation so you can just remove your argument concerning those verses.

 

At that time the Born again believers couldn’t follow Him. That doesn’t mean they can’t now.

 

Joh 13:36  Simon Peter said unto him, Lord, whither goest thou? Jesus answered him, Whither I go, thou canst not follow me    now    ; but thou shalt follow me       afterwards.

 

So these verses are still true,

 

Php 1:21  For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

22  But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.

23  For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

24  Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

25  And having this confidence, I know that I shall abide and continue with you all for your furtherance and joy of faith;

 

2Co 5:6  Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

7  (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

8  We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

 

1Th 4:14  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

God bless,

Tony

 

It's not I who am assuming. I built my argument from Scripture that deals with the subject. I've not proof texted a bunch of passages that aren't addressing the issue. You attempted to prove that people go to Heaven and not one of the passages you posted even mentioned Heaven. That's not proof, that' imposing on the passage.

 

Regarding Jesus' words, you didn't elaborate as to when they would follow and what that means. Notice Jesus words closely, He said you will follow, He didn't say they would be where He was going. They did follow later, they followed to death. However you've not yet proven that there is anything that lives on after death so you're still not able to make the connection. He told the Jews He was going to Him who sent Him, they couldn't go there. If Jesus is at the right hand of God no one can go there as no one can see the Father and live.

 

Instead of the continued proof texting, why note form an argument that has context that can be discussed?

 

Regarding the other passages, no one said they aren't true, they're just not saying what you think they are.

Edited September 28, 2013 by Butch5

[asper]

Hi butch,

 

You started it with you cannot go, now try to follow me on this.

so now it means something else?

 

Sorry I should of separated and bolded it so you could see it

 

Joh 13:36  Simon Peter said unto him, Lord, whither goest thou? Jesus answered him, Whither I     go     , thou canst not follow me now; but thou shalt follow me afterwards.

 

 

I am still taking the natural meaning of words which you are not.

 

Php 1:21  For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

22  But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.

23  For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

24  Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

25  And having this confidence, I know that I shall abide and continue with you all for your furtherance and joy of faith;

 

2Co 5:6  Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

7  (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

8  We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

 

1Th 4:14  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

 

 

So the question I have is if the Scriptures don’t mean what they say then what do they mean? Is it whatever you say it means?

 

So what do they mean?

 

 

God bless,

Tony

[OneLight]

Dude, God breathed the neshamah into Adam, it came out of God.

 

However that's not the real issue. The issue is this "other" spirit that is supposed to be in a man, yet no one can show where this spirit comes from.

God gave man life. He did not give man His spirit. If God gave man His spirit, Satan would never of been able to deceive him and the would never of gone against His wishes.

Honestly, you are trying to add into scripture what is not there. Our spirit was created in us as we were given life.

Where does Scripture teach any of this?

It would be considered spamming if I posted all the versed that describe the spirit of man. Ask yourself this. If Gods Spirit was in us, why would Jesus tell us the He will send the Holy Spirit, Gods Spirit? Why would that be necessary of He was already in us?

[Butch5]

There's no need to describe the spirit in man, that's not at issue. The issue is where does Scripture teach about a spirit that lives on after death. Even if you deny that neshamah is God's spirit. There still is nothing that teaches that man has a spirit that lives on after death.

[Floatingaxe]

 

 

 

Genesis 2:7 (AMP)

 

7 Then the Lord God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath or spirit of life, and man became a living being.

Are you trying to prove my point?

 

 

Just stating the facts. We are spirits who possess souls and live in bodies.

 

Well, since you haven't made a case from Scripture I'll have to assume that's an opinion. I believe Plato believed that also.

 

 

I don't think so. Everything I believe comes from scripture, and that includes the fact that we are tripartite beings who are spirits, who have souls (minds, wills and emotions) and live in fleshly bodies. Everything in scripture attests to it.

[Floatingaxe]

He told the Jews and His disciples that He was going to the one who sent Him and they could not go. In order for them to be with Him He needed to come back as He told them in John 14.

 

KJV John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

² In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

³ And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. (Joh 14:1-3 KJV)

 

 

It seems pretty clear that no one is going there.

 

However, if you'd put your passages in context and consider them you'd see that they are not saying what you believe they are.

 

 

 

 

How do you get that?

 

All believers go to God at the point of death, and all are with Jesus right now and will return with Him and will receive their new changed, glorified bodies. We will always be with Him---forever.

[Floatingaxe]

 

 

Hi butch,

 

You are assuming a few things,

 

The truth is that those who never become born again will never be able to follow Him. There is no universal salvation so you can just remove your argument concerning those verses.

 

At that time the Born again believers couldn’t follow Him. That doesn’t mean they can’t now.

 

Joh 13:36  Simon Peter said unto him, Lord, whither goest thou? Jesus answered him, Whither I go, thou canst not follow me    now    ; but thou shalt follow me       afterwards.

 

So these verses are still true,

 

Php 1:21  For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

22  But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.

23  For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

24  Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

25  And having this confidence, I know that I shall abide and continue with you all for your furtherance and joy of faith;

 

2Co 5:6  Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

7  (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

8  We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

 

1Th 4:14  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

 

 

God bless,

Tony

 

It's not I who am assuming. I built my argument from Scripture that deals with the subject. I've not proof texted a bunch of passages that aren't addressing the issue. You attempted to prove that people go to Heaven and not one of the passages you posted even mentioned Heaven. That's not proof, that' imposing on the passage.

 

Regarding Jesus' words, you didn't elaborate as to when they would follow and what that means. Notice Jesus words closely, He said you will follow, He didn't say they would be where He was going. They did follow later, they followed to death. However you've not yet proven that there is anything that lives on after death so you're still not able to make the connection. He told the Jews He was going to Him who sent Him, they couldn't go there. If Jesus is at the right hand of God no one can go there as no one can see the Father and live.

 

Instead of the continued proof texting, why note form an argument that has context that can be discussed?

 

Regarding the other passages, no one said they aren't true, they're just not saying what you think they are.

 

 

 

Nonsense. Where do you think the dead in Christ go, seeing as Jesus says He will never leave or forsake us---that we will never be separated from Him? That we walk in the light as He is in the light? That we inherit life as He is the Life? Certainly no scripture teaches us that we inherit soul sleep, or separation from God, or even dormancy. Can you think in terms of spiritual beings, or are you completely boxed in by the thought that we are only flesh beings?

 

John 6:50 (AMP)

⁵⁰ [but] this is the Bread that comes down from heaven, so that [any]one may eat of it and never die.

 

John 11:25-26 (NLT)

²⁵ Jesus told her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Anyone who believes in me will live, even after dying. ²⁶ Everyone who lives in me and believes in me will never ever die. Do you believe this, Martha?”

[asper]

 

Nonsense. Where do you think the dead in Christ go, seeing as Jesus says He will never leave or forsake us---that we will never be separated from Him? That we walk in the light as He is in the light? That we inherit life as He is the Life? Certainly no scripture teaches us that we inherit soul sleep, or separation from God, or even dormancy. Can you think in terms of spiritual beings, or are you completely boxed in by the thought that we are only flesh beings?

 

John 6:50 (AMP)

⁵⁰ [but] this is the Bread that comes down from heaven, so that [any]one may eat of it and never die.

 

John 11:25-26 (NLT)

²⁵ Jesus told her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Anyone who believes in me will live, even after dying. ²⁶ Everyone who lives in me and believes in me will never ever die. Do you believe this, Martha?”

 

 

excellent points floatingaxe

God bless you,

Tony

[OneLight]

There's no need to describe the spirit in man, that's not at issue. The issue is where does Scripture teach about a spirit that lives on after death. Even if you deny that neshamah is God's spirit. There still is nothing that teaches that man has a spirit that lives on after death.

 

I disagree that there is no need to describe the spirit of man.  Without this foundation, the discussion becomes moot.  In Revelation 6:9, who are those under His alter?  Where did they come from and do you believe this was after the rapture?  Is His kingdom spirit or mass?  If you say mass, how is it inside us?  You need to rightly divide scripture to understand.