Floatingaxe Posted September 21, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 9,613 Content Per Day: 1.45 Reputation: 656 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/31/1952 Share Posted September 21, 2013 Some say we will not go to heaven untill Jesus comes...."the dead will rise first".... So many times in the Bible it says that We will reunite in Heaven when He comes. It's not clear to me ... Are the dead in Heaven? I always believed my loved ones died and went right up to see our Lord and that there looking down on us... Then one day I heard a preacher say that's not so. We are in the grave untill Heaven is ready and the 2nd comming of Christ..... Now I'm confused.. Help... If you understood how we are created as tripartite beings, Spirit, soul and body, you would be able to understand more fully how when a believer dies, his spirit goes to God, When Jesus comes, that spirit is united with the body that is still on earth---is CHANGED---and becomes a whole new glorified body---ready and able to serve the King in His earthly Kingdom. That preacher you refer to is deceived. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butch5 Posted September 21, 2013 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 559 Content Per Day: 0.14 Reputation: 136 Days Won: 2 Joined: 09/09/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/01/1962 Share Posted September 21, 2013 When Jesus was on the Cross their were two thieves next to Him.One of the thieves responded to the message of salvation and one did not.Jesus said to the one who responded to His message "Today you will be with me in Paradise". He did not say "Your soul will remain in your body and I will see you when I come back in Glory".The thieve's soul was immediately going to be with Christ. Actually, There was no punctuation in the Greek text. It is the translators who added the punctuation where they "think" it should be. Jesus' statement to the their can be read two different ways and both are grammatically correct in the Greek text. Simply moving the comma over on place changes the meaning of the sentence. NAS Luke 23:43 And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise." (Luk 23:43 NAS) Below I have moved the comma from before the word "today" to after it. Notice the difference in meaning. And He said to him, "Truly I say to you today, you shall be with Me in Paradise." When the comma is placed before "today" the reading requires that the thief be in Paradise with Jesus that day. However, when the comma is moved and placed after the word "today" It reads "I tell you today". The second reading does not require that the thief be in Paradise with Jesus that day. The second reading better fits with the context of the Scriptures than the first one does. The whole comma thing can be easily seen in which way it is to be placed by The Scripture itself... for one the common sense of the reading- why would Jesus be telling them when He is speaking- as it is a literal historical account when He is speaking at that time or day? The account of Lazarus is interesting as to literary lines parable or account but is a mute point as to the purpose-> as truth presented in parable or actual event remains truth! He was in a conscience place of keeping till and all elements of human interaction was present... The Lord freed them by His Life covering and now we, (those who have received Him in the death of themselves), are with Him as His Word says 2 Cor 5:6-8 6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. NKJV As above this and the account of Lazarus are conjoined we come from here, by death, knowing all forms of consciousness, as now, with The Lord's Presence... Love, Steven Hi, We use similar language still today. How many time have you heard someone say, I'm telling you right now, if you don't go up there and... There are similar constructions that Jesus used that can be looked at also to see how He used the language. However, as I said in the other post. The commas being after the word today fits the context of Scripture better. If the comma is placed before the word today it has Jesus in Paradise that day, yet the Scripture tell us He was in the grave for 3 days. Regarding 2 Cor 5. There is no conscious state after death until the resurrection. It is the resurrection that Paul has in mind in 2 Cor.5 If you look at the context he actually says he doesn't want to be out of the body. KJV 2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. 5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. 6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (2Co 5:1-6 KJV) Notice Paul doesn't want to be unclothed, without a body but rather clothed upon. The Greek word translated "clothed upon" means, to put on over, or to overclothe. The whole context of this passage is the resurrected body, Paul has said nothing at all about a disembodied spirit. Paul was Pharisee and a learned one, he was well familiar with the OT Scriptures and the don't teach anything at all that would indicate the existence of a disembodied spirit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ncn Posted September 21, 2013 Group: Graduated to Heaven Followers: 6 Topic Count: 406 Topics Per Day: 0.09 Content Count: 5,248 Content Per Day: 1.13 Reputation: 1,337 Days Won: 67 Joined: 08/07/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted September 21, 2013 Perhaps art can invoke courage. We can be confident, courageous, and of good cheer because of Him. Art has it's place , the WORD of GOD has an even higher place and meaning. Pro 3:25 Do not be afraid of sudden terror or of the ruin of the wicked, when it comes, Pro 3:26 for the LORD will be your confidence and will keep your foot from being caught. Here is the promise of God’s superintending care for us; a care that is absent from the lives of those who reject Him. For those who have placed their faith in Christ for salvation, we are to have no fear because “it is your Father’s good pleasure to give you the kingdom” Luk 12:22 And he said to his disciples, "Therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your life, what you will eat, nor about your body, what you will put on. In this great promise lies the basis of our confidence, our courage. Romans 8:38-39 ....38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Never before in all my life have I felt the above words ring so true and you my brother need to heed them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted September 21, 2013 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,187 Content Per Day: 7.98 Reputation: 21,466 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Online Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted September 21, 2013 When Jesus was on the Cross their were two thieves next to Him.One of the thieves responded to the message of salvation and one did not.Jesus said to the one who responded to His message "Today you will be with me in Paradise". He did not say "Your soul will remain in your body and I will see you when I come back in Glory".The thieve's soul was immediately going to be with Christ. Actually, There was no punctuation in the Greek text. It is the translators who added the punctuation where they "think" it should be. Jesus' statement to the their can be read two different ways and both are grammatically correct in the Greek text. Simply moving the comma over on place changes the meaning of the sentence. NAS Luke 23:43 And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise." (Luk 23:43 NAS) Below I have moved the comma from before the word "today" to after it. Notice the difference in meaning. And He said to him, "Truly I say to you today, you shall be with Me in Paradise." When the comma is placed before "today" the reading requires that the thief be in Paradise with Jesus that day. However, when the comma is moved and placed after the word "today" It reads "I tell you today". The second reading does not require that the thief be in Paradise with Jesus that day. The second reading better fits with the context of the Scriptures than the first one does. The whole comma thing can be easily seen in which way it is to be placed by The Scripture itself... for one the common sense of the reading- why would Jesus be telling them when He is speaking- as it is a literal historical account when He is speaking at that time or day? The account of Lazarus is interesting as to literary lines parable or account but is a mute point as to the purpose-> as truth presented in parable or actual event remains truth! He was in a conscience place of keeping till and all elements of human interaction was present... The Lord freed them by His Life covering and now we, (those who have received Him in the death of themselves), are with Him as His Word says 2 Cor 5:6-8 6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. NKJV As above this and the account of Lazarus are conjoined we come from here, by death, knowing all forms of consciousness, as now, with The Lord's Presence... Love, Steven Hi, We use similar language still today. How many time have you heard someone say, I'm telling you right now, if you don't go up there and... There are similar constructions that Jesus used that can be looked at also to see how He used the language. However, as I said in the other post. The commas being after the word today fits the context of Scripture better. If the comma is placed before the word today it has Jesus in Paradise that day, yet the Scripture tell us He was in the grave for 3 days. Regarding 2 Cor 5. There is no conscious state after death until the resurrection. It is the resurrection that Paul has in mind in 2 Cor.5 If you look at the context he actually says he doesn't want to be out of the body. KJV 2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. 5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. 6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (2Co 5:1-6 KJV) Notice Paul doesn't want to be unclothed, without a body but rather clothed upon. The Greek word translated "clothed upon" means, to put on over, or to overclothe. The whole context of this passage is the resurrected body, Paul has said nothing at all about a disembodied spirit. Paul was Pharisee and a learned one, he was well familiar with the OT Scriptures and the don't teach anything at all that would indicate the existence of a disembodied spirit Please forgive the obvious Samuel, but God The Father Himself 'IS, WAS AND WILL BE' Spirit... Paul didn't know His condition when translated into the witness of God 2Cor 12:1-4 -> this alone indicates an unimportant aspect when in the presence of The Lord! So maybe a rethink on what you've stated or understood ... Love, Steven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butch5 Posted September 21, 2013 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 559 Content Per Day: 0.14 Reputation: 136 Days Won: 2 Joined: 09/09/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/01/1962 Share Posted September 21, 2013 When Jesus was on the Cross their were two thieves next to Him.One of the thieves responded to the message of salvation and one did not.Jesus said to the one who responded to His message "Today you will be with me in Paradise". He did not say "Your soul will remain in your body and I will see you when I come back in Glory".The thieve's soul was immediately going to be with Christ. Actually, There was no punctuation in the Greek text. It is the translators who added the punctuation where they "think" it should be. Jesus' statement to the their can be read two different ways and both are grammatically correct in the Greek text. Simply moving the comma over on place changes the meaning of the sentence. NAS Luke 23:43 And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise." (Luk 23:43 NAS) Below I have moved the comma from before the word "today" to after it. Notice the difference in meaning. And He said to him, "Truly I say to you today, you shall be with Me in Paradise." When the comma is placed before "today" the reading requires that the thief be in Paradise with Jesus that day. However, when the comma is moved and placed after the word "today" It reads "I tell you today". The second reading does not require that the thief be in Paradise with Jesus that day. The second reading better fits with the context of the Scriptures than the first one does. The whole comma thing can be easily seen in which way it is to be placed by The Scripture itself... for one the common sense of the reading- why would Jesus be telling them when He is speaking- as it is a literal historical account when He is speaking at that time or day? The account of Lazarus is interesting as to literary lines parable or account but is a mute point as to the purpose-> as truth presented in parable or actual event remains truth! He was in a conscience place of keeping till and all elements of human interaction was present... The Lord freed them by His Life covering and now we, (those who have received Him in the death of themselves), are with Him as His Word says 2 Cor 5:6-8 6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. NKJV As above this and the account of Lazarus are conjoined we come from here, by death, knowing all forms of consciousness, as now, with The Lord's Presence... Love, Steven Hi, We use similar language still today. How many time have you heard someone say, I'm telling you right now, if you don't go up there and... There are similar constructions that Jesus used that can be looked at also to see how He used the language. However, as I said in the other post. The commas being after the word today fits the context of Scripture better. If the comma is placed before the word today it has Jesus in Paradise that day, yet the Scripture tell us He was in the grave for 3 days. Regarding 2 Cor 5. There is no conscious state after death until the resurrection. It is the resurrection that Paul has in mind in 2 Cor.5 If you look at the context he actually says he doesn't want to be out of the body. KJV 2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. 5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. 6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (2Co 5:1-6 KJV) Notice Paul doesn't want to be unclothed, without a body but rather clothed upon. The Greek word translated "clothed upon" means, to put on over, or to overclothe. The whole context of this passage is the resurrected body, Paul has said nothing at all about a disembodied spirit. Paul was Pharisee and a learned one, he was well familiar with the OT Scriptures and the don't teach anything at all that would indicate the existence of a disembodied spirit Please forgive the obvious Samuel, but God The Father Himself 'IS, WAS AND WILL BE' Spirit... Paul didn't know His condition when translated into the witness of God 2Cor 12:1-4 -> this alone indicates an unimportant aspect when in the presence of The Lord! So maybe a rethink on what you've stated or understood ... Love, Steven Yes, God is spirit, that doesn't mean man is. I'm not sure what you think is so obvious. There is nothing in the Scriptures that teaches man has a conscious disembodied spirit. That idea is inferred by some from several passages of Scripture but it's not taught anywhere in the Scriptures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted September 21, 2013 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,187 Content Per Day: 7.98 Reputation: 21,466 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Online Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted September 21, 2013 Yes, God is spirit, that doesn't mean man is. I'm not sure what you think is so obvious. There is nothing in the Scriptures that teaches man has a conscious disembodied spirit. That idea is inferred by some from several passages of Scripture but it's not taught anywhere in the Scriptures. John 3:5-8 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit." NKJV Ever look in a mirror? That is called image and the image is restored in The Lord's Work... yet look at how it is for us: were in a body that we do not want and are very much at war with even while looking for a promised body that is not here yet.... that s/Spiritual desire to clothed with the new body even while at complete odds with the present body is what in your opinion? For me it is and in body yet out of body desire for new body perfection... so in Spirit I bring this unwanted body in use for my God's Glory even the while I am yearning in s/Spirit to be clothed with the promised new body of perfection... Love, Steven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butch5 Posted September 22, 2013 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 559 Content Per Day: 0.14 Reputation: 136 Days Won: 2 Joined: 09/09/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/01/1962 Share Posted September 22, 2013 Yes, God is spirit, that doesn't mean man is. I'm not sure what you think is so obvious. There is nothing in the Scriptures that teaches man has a conscious disembodied spirit. That idea is inferred by some from several passages of Scripture but it's not taught anywhere in the Scriptures. John 3:5-8 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit." NKJV Ever look in a mirror? That is called image and the image is restored in The Lord's Work... yet look at how it is for us: were in a body that we do not want and are very much at war with even while looking for a promised body that is not here yet.... that s/Spiritual desire to clothed with the new body even while at complete odds with the present body is what in your opinion? For me it is and in body yet out of body desire for new body perfection... so in Spirit I bring this unwanted body in use for my God's Glory even the while I am yearning in s/Spirit to be clothed with the promised new body of perfection... Love, Steven Dude, what are you talking about? God's breath is in man, that doesn't mean that man has a spirit that lives on after he dies. If you look at the creation account in Genesis you'll see that man consists of a body (dust of the ground) and the breath/spirit of life. It is God's breath/spirit that He breathed into Adam. When a man dies that breath/spirit returns to God and the man returns to the dust. 18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts. 19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. 20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. 21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth? (Ecc 3:1 KJV) Job said if God were to retrieve his spirit/breath all flesh would die. 14 If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath; 15 All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust. (Job 34:14-15 KJV) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted September 22, 2013 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,187 Content Per Day: 7.98 Reputation: 21,466 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Online Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted September 22, 2013 Dude, what are you talking about? God's breath is in man, that doesn't mean that man has a spirit that lives on after he dies. If you look at the creation account in Genesis you'll see that man consists of a body (dust of the ground) and the breath/spirit of life. It is God's breath/spirit that He breathed into Adam. When a man dies that breath/spirit returns to God and the man returns to the dust. 18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts. 19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. 20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. 21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth? (Ecc 3:1 KJV) Job said if God were to retrieve his spirit/breath all flesh would die. 14 If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath; 15 All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust. (Job 34:14-15 KJV) Dude, what are you talking about? God's breath is in man, that doesn't mean that man has a spirit that lives on after he dies There are two deaths taught in The Bible: 1st physical, 2nd eternal separation from God.... The first of course need no support as all men are appointed once to die then the judgment Heb 9:27-28 27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, NKJV The second is eternal separation in lake of fire Rev 20:11-15 11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. NKJV Love, Steven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butch5 Posted September 22, 2013 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 559 Content Per Day: 0.14 Reputation: 136 Days Won: 2 Joined: 09/09/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/01/1962 Share Posted September 22, 2013 Dude, what are you talking about? God's breath is in man, that doesn't mean that man has a spirit that lives on after he dies. If you look at the creation account in Genesis you'll see that man consists of a body (dust of the ground) and the breath/spirit of life. It is God's breath/spirit that He breathed into Adam. When a man dies that breath/spirit returns to God and the man returns to the dust. 18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts. 19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. 20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. 21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth? (Ecc 3:1 KJV) Job said if God were to retrieve his spirit/breath all flesh would die. 14 If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath; 15 All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust. (Job 34:14-15 KJV) Dude, what are you talking about? God's breath is in man, that doesn't mean that man has a spirit that lives on after he dies There are two deaths taught in The Bible: 1st physical, 2nd eternal separation from God.... The first of course need no support as all men are appointed once to die then the judgment Heb 9:27-28 27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, NKJV The second is eternal separation in lake of fire Rev 20:11-15 11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. NKJV Love, Steven I dont' see how any of this is making your case. Actually, separation from God is a result of death not a definition of it. Both deaths are physical, men live and die. When Christ returns all will resurrected some will receive eternal life and some will be cast into the lake of fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted September 22, 2013 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,187 Content Per Day: 7.98 Reputation: 21,466 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Online Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted September 22, 2013 I dont' see how any of this is making your case. Actually, separation from God is a result of death not a definition of it. Both deaths are physical, men live and die. When Christ returns all will resurrected some will receive eternal life and some will be cast into the lake of fire. Lazarus and the rich man do not jive with your understanding, Samuel after death talking to Saul does not agree, and Paul does not agree 2Cor 5:8... It is clear you are ignoring these accounts to fit your idea into this soul sleep... Rev 6:9-11 9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed. NKJV No one asleep communicates to another! Love, Steven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts