Are people in Heaven?

[Butch5]

 

 

I dont' see how any of this is making your case.  Actually, separation from God is a result of death not a definition of it. Both deaths are physical, men live and die. When Christ returns all will resurrected some will receive eternal life and some will be cast into the lake of fire.

 

Lazarus and the rich man do not jive with your understanding, Samuel after death talking to Saul does not agree, 

and Paul does not agree 2Cor 5:8... It is clear you are ignoring these accounts to fit your idea into this soul sleep...

Rev 6:9-11

9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God

and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true,

until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" 11 Then a white robe was given to each of

them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants

and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

NKJV

No one asleep communicates to another!  Love, Steven

 

I've not ignored anything. Are you suggesting that these passages contradict what the OT says about a man's death? I've already shown that Paul is talking about the resurrected body, not about floating around as spirit. The parable of Lazarus and the rich man is a parable about the rejection of the Jewish leadership. If you look at it in context you'll see that there is nothing else about an afterlife. Additionally, there are multiple problems if one interprets that as a literal account of what happens to a man at death. For one thing in the parable the rich man is suffering torment in the flames in Hades. However, the place of torment is not Hades, it's Gehenna, Jesus Himself said so. He spoke of Gehenna saying, where the flame is not quenched and their worm does not die. Another problem you have is  having people judged before the final judgment. There are still more that I could list. Regarding Samuel, if you read the passage the woman said she saw "gods" not spirits. Paul said that the "gods" were demons. The passage also says that Saul "perceived" that it was Samuel, that doesn't mean it was.

 

You still have not shown me anything in Scripture that teaches that man has a spirit that lives on. All you've given me is a few passage from which you've "inferred" that idea.

Edited September 23, 2013 by Butch5

[Guest]

You still have not shown me anything in Scripture that teaches that man has a spirit that lives on. All you've given me is a few passage from which you've "inferred" that idea.

 

 

That

 

Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth? Ecclesiastes 3:21

 

Idea

 

But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-14

 

Is Asserted

 

By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 1 Peter 3:19

 

You

 

And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. Mark 9:47-48

 

See

 

For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: Philippians 1:21-23

 

~

 

Believe

 

The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 3:35-36

 

And Be Blessed Beloved

 

Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, Jude 1:24

 

Love, Joe

[Floatingaxe]

 

 

 

I dont' see how any of this is making your case.  Actually, separation from God is a result of death not a definition of it. Both deaths are physical, men live and die. When Christ returns all will resurrected some will receive eternal life and some will be cast into the lake of fire.

 

Lazarus and the rich man do not jive with your understanding, Samuel after death talking to Saul does not agree, 

and Paul does not agree 2Cor 5:8... It is clear you are ignoring these accounts to fit your idea into this soul sleep...

Rev 6:9-11

9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God

and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true,

until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" 11 Then a white robe was given to each of

them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants

and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

NKJV

No one asleep communicates to another!  Love, Steven

 

I've not ignored anything. Are you suggesting that these passage contradict what the OT says about a man's death? I've already you that Paul is talking about the resurrected body, not about floating around as spirit. The parable of Lazarus and the rich man is a parable about the rejection of the Jewish leadership. If you look at it in context you see that there is nothing else about an afterlife. Additionally, that are multiple problems if one interprets that as a literal account of what happens to a man at death. For one thing in the parable the rich man is suffering torment in the flames in Hades. However, the place of torment is not Hades, it's Gehenna, Jesus Himself said so. He spoke of Gehenna saying where  the flame is not quenched and their worm does no die. Another problem you have having people judged before the final judgment. There are still more that I could list. Regarding Samuel, if you read the passage the woman said she saw "gods" not spirits. Paul said that the "gods" were demons. The passage also says that Saul "perceived" that it was Samuel, that doesn't mean it was.

 

You still have not shown me anything in Scripture that teaches that man has a spirit that lives on. All you've given me is a few passage from which you've "inferred" that idea.

 

 

Paul is very clear about the spirit of man going directly to God. The body is what is changed at the resurrection.

 

2 Corinthians 5:6-8 (NLT)

⁶ So we are always confident, even though we know that as long as we live in these bodies we are not at home with the Lord. ⁷ For we live by believing and not by seeing. ⁸ Yes, we are fully confident, and we would rather be away from these earthly bodies, for then we will be at home with the Lord.

[Butch5]

 

 

 

 

I dont' see how any of this is making your case.  Actually, separation from God is a result of death not a definition of it. Both deaths are physical, men live and die. When Christ returns all will resurrected some will receive eternal life and some will be cast into the lake of fire.

 

Lazarus and the rich man do not jive with your understanding, Samuel after death talking to Saul does not agree, 

and Paul does not agree 2Cor 5:8... It is clear you are ignoring these accounts to fit your idea into this soul sleep...

Rev 6:9-11

9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God

and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true,

until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" 11 Then a white robe was given to each of

them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants

and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

NKJV

No one asleep communicates to another!  Love, Steven

 

I've not ignored anything. Are you suggesting that these passage contradict what the OT says about a man's death? I've already you that Paul is talking about the resurrected body, not about floating around as spirit. The parable of Lazarus and the rich man is a parable about the rejection of the Jewish leadership. If you look at it in context you see that there is nothing else about an afterlife. Additionally, that are multiple problems if one interprets that as a literal account of what happens to a man at death. For one thing in the parable the rich man is suffering torment in the flames in Hades. However, the place of torment is not Hades, it's Gehenna, Jesus Himself said so. He spoke of Gehenna saying where  the flame is not quenched and their worm does no die. Another problem you have having people judged before the final judgment. There are still more that I could list. Regarding Samuel, if you read the passage the woman said she saw "gods" not spirits. Paul said that the "gods" were demons. The passage also says that Saul "perceived" that it was Samuel, that doesn't mean it was.

 

You still have not shown me anything in Scripture that teaches that man has a spirit that lives on. All you've given me is a few passage from which you've "inferred" that idea.

 

 

Paul is very clear about the spirit of man going directly to God. The body is what is changed at the resurrection.

 

2 Corinthians 5:6-8 (NLT)

⁶ So we are always confident, even though we know that as long as we live in these bodies we are not at home with the Lord. ⁷ For we live by believing and not by seeing. ⁸ Yes, we are fully confident, and we would rather be away from these earthly bodies, for then we will be at home with the Lord.

 

I've already pointed put that Paul is talking about the resurrection. He said he doesn't want to be with a body but wants the incorruptible one. Paul, here makes absolutely no mention a spirit that lives on after death.

[asper]

KJV,

 

Php 1:23  For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

24  Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

25  And having this confidence, I know that I shall abide and continue with you all for your furtherance and joy of faith;

 

NET BIBLE,

 

23 I feel torn between the two,[36] because I have a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far, 24 but it is more vital for your sake that I remain[37] in the body.[38] 25 And since I am sure of this, I know that I will remain and continue with all of you for the sake of your progress[39] and joy in the faith,[40]

Phil 1:23-25 (NET1)

 

Seems to say that there is more to us then just our bodies.

 

 

 

KJV,

Eph 4:8  Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

 

What is the possibility that paradise was moved?

 

6 tn Grk “he led captive captivity.”

—NET Bible Notes - First Edition

 

 

God bless,

Tony

 

 

[Floatingaxe]

 

 

 

 

 

I dont' see how any of this is making your case.  Actually, separation from God is a result of death not a definition of it. Both deaths are physical, men live and die. When Christ returns all will resurrected some will receive eternal life and some will be cast into the lake of fire.

 

Lazarus and the rich man do not jive with your understanding, Samuel after death talking to Saul does not agree, 

and Paul does not agree 2Cor 5:8... It is clear you are ignoring these accounts to fit your idea into this soul sleep...

Rev 6:9-11

9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God

and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true,

until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" 11 Then a white robe was given to each of

them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants

and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

NKJV

No one asleep communicates to another!  Love, Steven

 

I've not ignored anything. Are you suggesting that these passage contradict what the OT says about a man's death? I've already you that Paul is talking about the resurrected body, not about floating around as spirit. The parable of Lazarus and the rich man is a parable about the rejection of the Jewish leadership. If you look at it in context you see that there is nothing else about an afterlife. Additionally, that are multiple problems if one interprets that as a literal account of what happens to a man at death. For one thing in the parable the rich man is suffering torment in the flames in Hades. However, the place of torment is not Hades, it's Gehenna, Jesus Himself said so. He spoke of Gehenna saying where  the flame is not quenched and their worm does no die. Another problem you have having people judged before the final judgment. There are still more that I could list. Regarding Samuel, if you read the passage the woman said she saw "gods" not spirits. Paul said that the "gods" were demons. The passage also says that Saul "perceived" that it was Samuel, that doesn't mean it was.

 

You still have not shown me anything in Scripture that teaches that man has a spirit that lives on. All you've given me is a few passage from which you've "inferred" that idea.

 

 

Paul is very clear about the spirit of man going directly to God. The body is what is changed at the resurrection.

 

2 Corinthians 5:6-8 (NLT)

⁶ So we are always confident, even though we know that as long as we live in these bodies we are not at home with the Lord. ⁷ For we live by believing and not by seeing. ⁸ Yes, we are fully confident, and we would rather be away from these earthly bodies, for then we will be at home with the Lord.

 

I've already pointed put that Paul is talking about the resurrection. He said he doesn't want to be with a body but wants the incorruptible one. Paul, here makes absolutely no mention a spirit that lives on after death.

 

 

That is your mistaken belief. 2 Corinthians 5 verse 1 tells us Paul is merely talking about DYING:

 

For we know that when this earthly tent we live in is taken down (that is, when we die and leave this earthly body), we will have a house in heaven, an eternal body made for us by God himself and not by human hands.

 

All scripture together teaches that we are spiritual beings and that we die when the spirit leaves the body. In Christ our spirits live, and go directly back to God.

[Butch5]

There's no mistake. Paul says nothing about a spirit. He clearly states that he's looking for an immortal body. The idea of a disembodied spirit is being imposed on the passage. The idea that spirits leave the body and ascend into the heavens is from Greek philosophy not the Scriptures. I'll ask again, please show me somewhere in Scripture that teaches that man has this spirit.

[OneLight]

Shalom Butch.

 

I am not sure I understand exactly what you are saying.  This is what I have gotten so far from what I have read from your posts:

• You do not believe we have a spirit.
• We are not destined to be in His kingdom, but to rule here on the New Earth.
• We basically "soul sleep" until we are physically resurrected.

Am I correct or am I misunderstanding you?

[Floatingaxe]

There's no mistake. Paul says nothing about a spirit. He clearly states that he's looking for an immortal body. The idea of a disembodied spirit is being imposed on the passage. The idea that spirits leave the body and ascend into the heavens is from Greek philosophy not the Scriptures. I'll ask again, please show me somewhere in Scripture that teaches that man has this spirit.

 

Yes, you make a grave error in misunderstanding who and what we are!

 

We are spirits who have souls and who live in bodies. Paul knows that, and we should also, because we are made in the likeness of God who is  spirit! Paul is talking about our spirits. He is telling us that we will have an immortal body at the resurrection. Greek philosophy has nothing on God's word!

 

Job 34:14-15 (NLT)

¹⁴ If God were to take back his spirit

    and withdraw his breath,

¹⁵ all life would cease,

    and humanity would turn again to dust.

 

1 Thessalonians 5:23 (NLT)

²³ Now may the God of peace make you holy in every way, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ comes again.

 

 

You cannot ignore that we are spiritual beings. There is a separation between body, soul and spirit.

 

Hebrews 4:12 (NASB)

¹²For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart

 

We see in this passage of Scripture that the soul and spirit can be divided -- and that it is the Word of God that pierces our heart to bring the division of soul and spirit, something that only God can do.

 

 

As human beings, we live eternally as a spirit, we have a soul (mind, will and emotions), and we dwell in a body...

 

Psalm 139:13-14 (NASB)

¹³ For You formed my inward parts;

You wove me in my mother’s womb.

¹⁴ I will give thanks to You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made;

Wonderful are Your works,

And my soul knows it very well.

[asper]

Hi butch,

 

Same story again. You are explaining away the Scriptures to favor your own opinion.

 

Try this one for size.

 

KJV

 

1Th 4:14  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

 

 

MKJV,

 

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will also bring with Him all those who have fallen asleep through Jesus.

 

NET BIBLE,

 

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, so also we believe that[17] God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep as Christians.[18]

1 Thess 4:14 (NET1)

 

In case you missed it the key words are “bring with Him”

 

 

God bless,

Tony