Are people in Heaven?

[Butch5]

 

 

Hi butch,

 

I don’t know who gave you that line of “proof texting” or if you made that up by yourself. But you do realize the Word of God is true each and every Word even though it seems to me that you do use that term to try to ignore verses of your choosing.

 

 

Ps 119:160  Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.

 

Pr 30:5  Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.

 

 

 

 

 

God bless,

Tony

HI Tony,

 

Proof texting is taking a passage, removing it from it's context and saying, the Bibles says xyz. Every verse of Scriptures is part of a larger context. No verse stands alone. So whatever that verse means is determined by the context from which it is taken. When a person takes a verse of Scripture, removes it from it's context and attempts to prove something that passage is not dealing with they are proof texting. For instance The passage from 2 Cor 5. You guys insist that it proves that man has a spirit that lives on after death. Paul is talking about his mortal body and his future immortal body. In context he states that he's not looking to put of his body but rather to put on his immortal body. In the passage does says nothing about a spirit living on after death. So when one passage, "infers" from it something other than what Paul said and says the Bible says xyz, they are proof texting, because the passage is not addressing the subject to which they are applying it.

 

 

Hi butch,

 

I have taken nothing out of context you are just ignoring what is being said because it disagrees with your beliefs.

 

Where do you your beliefs anyway?

 

Watchtower?

 

 

God bless,

Tony

 

Then show m where 2 Cor 5 is talking about a spirit that lives on after death or that people go to Heaven.

[Butch5]

 

 

Hi butch,

 

I don’t know who gave you that line of “proof texting” or if you made that up by yourself. But you do realize the Word of God is true each and every Word even though it seems to me that you do use that term to try to ignore verses of your choosing.

 

 

Ps 119:160  Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.

 

Pr 30:5  Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.

 

 

 

 

 

God bless,

Tony

HI Tony,

 

Proof texting is taking a passage, removing it from it's context and saying, the Bibles says xyz. Every verse of Scriptures is part of a larger context. No verse stands alone. So whatever that verse means is determined by the context from which it is taken. When a person takes a verse of Scripture, removes it from it's context and attempts to prove something that passage is not dealing with they are proof texting. For instance The passage from 2 Cor 5. You guys insist that it proves that man has a spirit that lives on after death. Paul is talking about his mortal body and his future immortal body. In context he states that he's not looking to put of his body but rather to put on his immortal body. In the passage does says nothing about a spirit living on after death. So when one passage, "infers" from it something other than what Paul said and says the Bible says xyz, they are proof texting, because the passage is not addressing the subject to which they are applying it.

 

 

Hi butch,

 

I have taken nothing out of context you are just ignoring what is being said because it disagrees with your beliefs.

 

Where do you your beliefs anyway?

 

Watchtower?

 

 

God bless,

Tony

 

If you want to know my beliefs you can find much of it in the writings of the Ante-Nicene writers, particularly volume one.

[asper]

 

 

 

Hi butch,

 

I don’t know who gave you that line of “proof texting” or if you made that up by yourself. But you do realize the Word of God is true each and every Word even though it seems to me that you do use that term to try to ignore verses of your choosing.

 

 

Ps 119:160  Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.

 

Pr 30:5  Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.

 

 

 

 

 

God bless,

Tony

HI Tony,

 

Proof texting is taking a passage, removing it from it's context and saying, the Bibles says xyz. Every verse of Scriptures is part of a larger context. No verse stands alone. So whatever that verse means is determined by the context from which it is taken. When a person takes a verse of Scripture, removes it from it's context and attempts to prove something that passage is not dealing with they are proof texting. For instance The passage from 2 Cor 5. You guys insist that it proves that man has a spirit that lives on after death. Paul is talking about his mortal body and his future immortal body. In context he states that he's not looking to put of his body but rather to put on his immortal body. In the passage does says nothing about a spirit living on after death. So when one passage, "infers" from it something other than what Paul said and says the Bible says xyz, they are proof texting, because the passage is not addressing the subject to which they are applying it.

 

 

Hi butch,

 

I have taken nothing out of context you are just ignoring what is being said because it disagrees with your beliefs.

 

Where do you your beliefs anyway?

 

Watchtower?

 

 

God bless,

Tony

 

Then show m where 2 Cor 5 is talking about a spirit that lives on after death or that people go to Heaven.

 

 

 

Hi butch,

 

Watchtower really? That’s got to be the worst.

 

 

2Co 5:1  For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

 

Kind of different from the original creation of man.

 

2  For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

 

That new house will be a lot better,

 

3  If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

 

Naked without our bodies.

 

4  For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

 

We don’t want our current body but we don’t want to be without a body so we desire the new body which is in heaven.

 

5  Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

 

God made our new body.

 

6  Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

 

while we are in our current body we are not with the Lord.

 

7  (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

8  We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

 

We would like to die and be present with the Lord.

 

That about covers it.

 

Absent from the body is the key. If we are just our bodies then how can that be?

 

9  Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

10  For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

11  Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

12 ¶  For we commend not ourselves again unto you, but give you occasion to glory on our behalf, that ye may have somewhat to answer them which glory in appearance, and not in heart.

13  For whether we be beside ourselves, it is to God: or whether we be sober, it is for your cause.

14  For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

15  And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

16 ¶  Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

17  Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

18  And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

19  To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

20  Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.

21  For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

 

 

God bless,

Tony

[OneLight]

Hold on a minute, you said that when man dies, God takes back His Spirit, and man has no spirit within him that lives on after death.

 

Regarding the spirit in man, I don't have a problem discussing it if you can show me where it's taught. You've rejected my statement that neshamah is God's spirit, so what is this spirit in man and where did it come from?

Your definition of the word is incorrect, which is why I disagree. Genesis 2:7 states "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being."

This clearly states that God gave man life by breathing into his nostrils. It does not say that God breathed His Spirit into man. The life God gave is the image of God, body, soul and spirit. I tried to show you that if man had Gods Spirit in him from the beginning, then His Spirit will not allow man to sin because He cannot sin. Man, however, has a rebellious spirit in him and disobeys God. That is the basic proof you ask for.

Then you say:

 

I didn't say it was the Holy Spirit that was put into a person. It's obviously not the Holy Spirit because this spirit/breath is in all living things. The Holly Spirit is not in evil men and I don't believe He's in the animals either.

Gods Spirit IS the Holy Spirit. He has no other. The whole discussion began when you implied the following:

 

Hi OneLight,

The spirit that we have is God's spirit/breath that is breathed into every living creature. I am saying that when God takes His spirit/breath back there is nothing in a man to live on.

When God retrieves His Spirit man is dead and remains dead until God breathes His breath/spirit back into that man at the resurrection.

You did say that the spirit of man is Gods Spirit and He will take it back upon their death. This is the whole foundation you used to indicate that man does not have a spirit that lives on after death. Are you now reconsidering your stance on this?

You are going in circles with this, or you think God has more than one Spirit. You are also incorrect in implying that the spirit God gave man is the same spirit in all other living creatures. It is not. If you belong to a local body, I encourage you to get with the elders and discuss this issue. I say this because you are not listening to anything anyone is saying. You are just defending your position and building walls. I am not interested in continuing this conversation if I have to break down walls each time I reply.

[Butch5]

 

 

 

 

Hi butch,

 

I don’t know who gave you that line of “proof texting” or if you made that up by yourself. But you do realize the Word of God is true each and every Word even though it seems to me that you do use that term to try to ignore verses of your choosing.

 

 

Ps 119:160  Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.

 

Pr 30:5  Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.

 

 

 

 

 

God bless,

Tony

HI Tony,

 

Proof texting is taking a passage, removing it from it's context and saying, the Bibles says xyz. Every verse of Scriptures is part of a larger context. No verse stands alone. So whatever that verse means is determined by the context from which it is taken. When a person takes a verse of Scripture, removes it from it's context and attempts to prove something that passage is not dealing with they are proof texting. For instance The passage from 2 Cor 5. You guys insist that it proves that man has a spirit that lives on after death. Paul is talking about his mortal body and his future immortal body. In context he states that he's not looking to put of his body but rather to put on his immortal body. In the passage does says nothing about a spirit living on after death. So when one passage, "infers" from it something other than what Paul said and says the Bible says xyz, they are proof texting, because the passage is not addressing the subject to which they are applying it.

 

 

Hi butch,

 

I have taken nothing out of context you are just ignoring what is being said because it disagrees with your beliefs.

 

Where do you your beliefs anyway?

 

Watchtower?

 

 

God bless,

Tony

 

Then show m where 2 Cor 5 is talking about a spirit that lives on after death or that people go to Heaven.

 

 

 

Hi butch,

 

Watchtower really? That’s got to be the worst.

 

 

2Co 5:1  For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

 

Kind of different from the original creation of man.

 

2  For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

 

That new house will be a lot better,

 

3  If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

 

Naked without our bodies.

 

4  For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

 

We don’t want our current body but we don’t want to be without a body so we desire the new body which is in heaven.

 

5  Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

 

God made our new body.

 

6  Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

 

while we are in our current body we are not with the Lord.

 

7  (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

8  We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

 

We would like to die and be present with the Lord.

 

That about covers it.

 

Absent from the body is the key. If we are just our bodies then how can that be?

 

9  Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

10  For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

11  Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

12 ¶  For we commend not ourselves again unto you, but give you occasion to glory on our behalf, that ye may have somewhat to answer them which glory in appearance, and not in heart.

13  For whether we be beside ourselves, it is to God: or whether we be sober, it is for your cause.

14  For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

15  And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

16 ¶  Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

17  Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

18  And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

19  To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

20  Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.

21  For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

 

 

God bless,

Tony

 

The key is that Paul doesn't what to be without the body. It's clear from his words that he expects to clothe his mortal body with his immortal body. He makes no mention at all about wanting to leave his body and be a spirit that lives on after death. The passage say nothing about being a spirit and living on after death. Seriously, you do realize this is an inference, right?

 

It was the desire of the Greek and the Gnostics to escape the body and ascend into the Heavens.

[OneLight]

Tertullian commented on the passage in his refutation of Marcion.     Against Marcion, Book 4 Chapter 35.

 

“The kingdom of God,” He says, “cometh not with observation; neither do they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.”Now, who will not interpret the words “within you” to mean in your and, within your power, if you hear, and do the commandment of God? If, however, the kingdom of God lies in His commandment, set before your mind Moses on the other side, according to our antitheses, and you will find the self-same view of the case.

Early Church Fathers - – Ante-Nicene Fathers: The Writings of the Fathers Down To A.D. 325.

 

I believe the souls under the alter is allegory or metaphorical. I believe it's an allusion to the Genesis account of Able's martyrdom. Remember God said to Cain, you brother's blood cries out to me from the ground. I don't think Able's blood was literally speaking to God. One has to wonder why these souls are under the altar. What was the alter for? It was for sacrifices, the martyrs sacrificed their lives for God. In Leviticus we are told that the soul is in the blood. combine these three and you have the souls under the alter.  

 

¹¹ For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul. (Lev 17:11 KJV)

 

Life is translated from nephesh, the soul is in the blood. It seems to me that a spirit or a ghost isn't in the blood. Therefore I don't think the case can be made that these are some sort of spirit or ghost of those who were martyred.

You are depending upon mans logic and not scripture. I suggest and encourage you to study Scripture alone with His guidance. When Jesus said within, that is what he meant.

When Paul said in 1 Corinthians 5:3 "For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed." was did he mean?

When Paul stated in 2 Corinthians 5:8 "We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord., was he lying or does one become raptured upon death, meaning that are millions of raptures?

Have you ever wondered why Jesus would send us the Holy Spirit if He was already in us?

I'm using human reasoning? Dude, what I've said is clearly stated in the passages I posted. On the other hand you guys have posted passages from which you have inferred you claims. The passages didn't  state what you guys claimed. It seems to me that using inferences to make your case is human reasoning,  Look at the two passages you've posted here, Neither of them say that one goes to heaven when they die or that man has a spirit or ghost that lives on after death. The only way one can derive that is by inference.

First, on a personal note, my name is not Dude. It is Alan. Please refer to me either as OneLight or Alan. I am really too old for kids slang.

Yes, you are using for your argument what one man (Tertullian) did to refute another man (Marcion), which is how each of them believed - human reasoning. What I was suggesting is that you can either use scripture alone and be taught by the Holy Spirit, or you can read and study the tens of thousands, if not more, books written by men. There is not one man who ever lived, whose parents were both humans, that had all the answers.

The fact that the Apostles state that man has a spirit is enough for me to accept this as fact. As I said, there are far too many v erses to include them all, but I will use just a few.

In Acts 7:59, when Stephen was being stoned to death, he said "And they stoned Stephen as he was calling on God and saying, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.”"

In Romans 8:16, Paul clearly identifies our spirit "The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God"

Paul continues to display the difference of our spirit from His Spirit in 1 Corinthians 2:11 "For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God"

Paul even talks about the spirit being saved in 1 Corinthians 5:4-5 "In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."

There are many more references.

[Floatingaxe]

Scripture clearly teaches that the dead in Christ go immediately to be with Jesus:

 

2 Corinthians 5:8 (NKJV)

 

8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

 

 

Philippians 1:23 (NKJV)

 

23 For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better.

 

 

There is no intermediary place---or state of being, except to be alive forevermore with Jesus Christ.

[Floatingaxe]

 

 

 

 

He told the Jews and His disciples that He was going to the one who sent Him and they could not go. In order for them to be with Him He needed to come back as He told them in John 14.

 

KJV John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

² In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

³ And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. (Joh 14:1-3 KJV)

 

 

It seems pretty clear that no one is going there.

 

However, if you'd put your passages in context and consider them you'd see that they are not saying what you believe they are.

 

 

 

 

How do you get that?

 

All believers go to God at the point of death, and all are with Jesus right now and will return with Him and will receive their new changed, glorified bodies. We will always be with Him---forever

Unless you can show that from Scripture I'll have to assume it's an opinion.

 

 

You've been shown. You just disbelieve.

 

All I've been shown are proof texts. I've been asking from the beginning for Scripture that "teaches" that man has a spirit that lives on after death. No one has presented anything that "teaches" it. Instead what's been presented are passages from which the idea is being inferred.

 

 

You turn the eyes of your soul from this:

 

 

John 6:50

Anyone who eats the bread from heaven, however, will never die.

 

John 8:51

I tell you the truth, anyone who obeys my teaching will never die!”

 

John 8:52

The people said, “Now we know you are possessed by a demon. Even Abraham and the prophets died, but you say, ‘Anyone who obeys my teaching will never die!’

 

John 11:26

Everyone who lives in me and believes in me will never ever die. Do you believe this, Martha?”

[Butch5]

Hold on a minute, you said that when man dies, God takes back His Spirit, and man has no spirit within him that lives on after death.

 

 

Regarding the spirit in man, I don't have a problem discussing it if you can show me where it's taught. You've rejected my statement that neshamah is God's spirit, so what is this spirit in man and where did it come from?

Your definition of the word is incorrect, which is why I disagree. Genesis 2:7 states "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being."

This clearly states that God gave man life by breathing into his nostrils. It does not say that God breathed His Spirit into man. The life God gave is the image of God, body, soul and spirit. I tried to show you that if man had Gods Spirit in him from the beginning, then His Spirit will not allow man to sin because He cannot sin. Man, however, has a rebellious spirit in him and disobeys God. That is the basic proof you ask for.

 

Then you say:

 

I didn't say it was the Holy Spirit that was put into a person. It's obviously not the Holy Spirit because this spirit/breath is in all living things. The Holly Spirit is not in evil men and I don't believe He's in the animals either.

Gods Spirit IS the Holy Spirit. He has no other. The whole discussion began when you implied the following:

 

Hi OneLight,

The spirit that we have is God's spirit/breath that is breathed into every living creature. I am saying that when God takes His spirit/breath back there is nothing in a man to live on.

When God retrieves His Spirit man is dead and remains dead until God breathes His breath/spirit back into that man at the resurrection.

You did say that the spirit of man is Gods Spirit and He will take it back upon their death. This is the whole foundation you used to indicate that man does not have a spirit that lives on after death. Are you now reconsidering your stance on this?

You are going in circles with this, or you think God has more than one Spirit. You are also incorrect in implying that the spirit God gave man is the same spirit in all other living creatures. It is not. If you belong to a local body, I encourage you to get with the elders and discuss this issue. I say this because you are not listening to anything anyone is saying. You are just defending your position and building walls. I am not interested in continuing this conversation if I have to break down walls each time I reply.

 

Come on man be serious. I've present clear passages of Scripture. I've shown that "neshamah" and "ruach" are used interchangeably in the Scripture. I've shown that "nepesh", soul is used of both man and animal. I've shown that man and animal have "one breath".

 

¹⁶ And moreover I saw under the sun the place of judgment, that wickedness was there; and the place of righteousness, that iniquity was there.

¹⁷ I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work.

¹⁸ I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.

¹⁹ For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.

²⁰All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

²¹ Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth? (Ecc 3:16-21 KJV)

 

There are no inferences here, it's plainly stated. Man is no different than the beast. As one dies so does the other. They all have "One breath", ruwach. Ruwach is translated Pnuma in Greek. That is the word spirit. Solomon said they all have one. Both man and animal all have "one" spirit. If God retrieves that spirit all flesh will perish and return to the dust.

 

¹⁴ If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;

¹⁵ All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust. (Job 34:14-15 KJV)

 

Notice he said mad shall return to dust. This statement is made several times in the Scriptures.

 

17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

¹⁸ Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

¹⁹ In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. (Gen 3:17-19 KJV)

 

 

¹⁶ The trees of the LORD are full of sap; the cedars of Lebanon, which he hath planted;

¹⁷ Where the birds make their nests: as for the stork, the fir trees are her house.

¹⁸ The high hills are a refuge for the wild goats; and the rocks for the conies.

¹⁹ He appointed the moon for seasons: the sun knoweth his going down.

²⁰ Thou makest darkness, and it is night: wherein all the beasts of the forest do creep forth.

²¹ The young lions roar after their prey, and seek their meat from God.

²² The sun ariseth, they gather themselves together, and lay them down in their dens.

²³ Man goeth forth unto his work and to his labour until the evening.

²⁴ O LORD, how manifold are thy works! in wisdom hast thou made them all: the earth is full of thy riches.

²⁵So is this great and wide sea, wherein are things creeping innumerable, both small and great beasts.

²⁶ There go the ships: there is that leviathan, whom thou hast made to play therein.

²⁷ These wait all upon thee; that thou mayest give them their meat in due season.

²⁸That thou givest them they gather: thou openest thine hand, they are filled with good.

²⁹ Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.

³⁰Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.

(Psa 104:16-30 KJV)

 

 

Here David says pretty much the same thing Solomon said. Speaking of man and animals he said God takes away their "ruwach" and they return to the dust. If He sends forth His "ruwach" they are created.

 

These are clear statements in Scripture there is nothing inferred here. If we're going to talk about building walls and studying Scripture alone  maybe it's not me who needs to do that. Since there are no passages of Scripture that teach a man has a spirit that lives on after death or that goes to Heaven and we have quite a bit of Scripture that speaks of how man was created, what he was created with, and where he goes when he dies, maybe it's the doctrines that you guys hold that should be reconsidered. 

[Floatingaxe]

 

 

 

Amen , floating axe. Someone told me not long ago, don't cast your pearls before the swine. There are some who just want to argue. They don't want to believe, or they do not have the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit, or probably both. I know you must have mentioned this one, but when Stephen was being stoned to death in Acts 7:59: "They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said '"Lord Jesus, receive my spirit."' NASV. Since he saw Jesus standing in honor of him, I do believe he was expecting his spirit to be with Jesus in heaven. While a dying confession is accepted in courts, I doubt if butch will accept Stephen's as truth. He seems to be accustomed to some sort of formal debate that has rules, but he doesn't tell us what the rules are. Moreover he is more interested in playing the game than knowing the truth. The problem is that his real arguement is with God. And the sad thing is that he can't win. It will require him to humble himself as a little child and surrender to his intellect and arguements to his Creator. Of course, that is just my opinion.

Wow, that's pretty amazing since no one has presented anything that teaches one has a spirit that lives on after death or that one goes to Heaven when they die. What I've said is plainly stated in the Scriptures yet the counter argument is from inference. You spoke about seeking the truth. I've been doing so for some years now. The includes going back to the source and rejecting the teachings of men. The idea of ascending into the heavens is from Greek Philosophy and Gnosticism. he apostle John called the Gnostics antichrist. If one is searching for truth then they'll accept whatever the Scriptures say, not try to counter them with inferences. Instead of putting forth inferences why not look at the Scriptures that I have presented in humility and be willing to change one's doctrine when it doesn't align with the Scriptures?

 

Think about this. According to most Christians the ultimate goal in life is to spend eternity in Heaven with the Lord. If this was the teaching of Scripture don't you think it would have at least been mentioned "one" time , even if just in passing? There is not a single passage of Scripture that says people go to Heaven when they die or that man has a spirit (other than God's) that lives on after death. Do you really believe that God would give all of the Bible and leave the most important part to inference?

 

 

 

Hi butch,

 

I think the key is that we will ever be with the Lord. I think that we will come back to earth so spending eternity in heaven would not be correct.

 

1Th 4:17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

 

Re 21:1  And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2  And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3  And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

 

 

God bless,

Tony

 

Hi Tony,

 

I was just pointing out what is probably the majority belief.

 

It's interesting that you posted the verse from 1 Thess 4. If you're coming back with Jesus what exactly is it that is going to meet the Lord in the air. How are you meeting Him if you are already with Him. To meet someone can mean two things. One can meet someone, someone they didn't know or they can meet someone, at a location. If you come back with Jesus you're not meeting Him you're with Him.

 

 

It's obvious that if one is already dead and in the presence of Jesus Christ, that he will be coming back with Him and receiving his own new immortal body before the Christians who are alive and looking for Christ will receive their new bodies.

 

It appears your hope is broken...

 

1 Thessalonians 4:14 (NLT)

¹⁴ For since we believe that Jesus died and was raised to life again, we also believe that when Jesus returns, God will bring back with him the believers who have died.

 

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 (NLT)

¹⁵ We tell you this directly from the Lord: We who are still living when the Lord returns will not meet him ahead of those who have died. ¹⁶ For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. First, the Christians who have died will rise from their graves. ¹⁷ Then, together with them, we who are still alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Then we will be with the Lord forever.