No Scripture Identifies the Time for the Rapture

[Montana Marv]

Roy

 

Your questions:  We don't need to go anywhere to avoid God's Wrath; we can be protected THROUGH it wherever we are.

 

Now, let me ask the question to you or anyone who believes in the Rapture for either a 7-year period or a 3.5-year period: WHY do we need to go to "Heaven" for that length of time?

 

First of all the wrath which is spoken about in I Thes 5:9 is the Second Death.  We are not appointed for the Second Death.  This was just as valid during the 1st century Church as it is for the 21st century Church.  Rev 3:10b says: I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth.  We will have been removed before this trial happens.

 

We need to go to Heaven because that is where Jesus is.  That is where He has prepared a place for us.  John 14:4 - You know the way to the place where I am going.

 

Where was Jesus going?  Where did He go to?  If one can answer correctly, we know we are going up into heaven.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[holys]

wow and wow....lol..ok... i do belive in the pre trib rapture..but sometimes i really think that im wrong.. i have thought as well at the 6th trumpet...but who knows.... well in either way...the only thing i know is that we really have to be ready..having our lamps full at all times....i thught there was a rapture and a 2nd comming.... i also thought that when the raptured went up with our Lord and saviour..Jesus...that they meaning the raptured would come back down with our Lord for the final battle....is this true???

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Montana Marv!

 

Roy

 

Your questions:  We don't need to go anywhere to avoid God's Wrath; we can be protected THROUGH it wherever we are.

 

Now, let me ask the question to you or anyone who believes in the Rapture for either a 7-year period or a 3.5-year period: WHY do we need to go to "Heaven" for that length of time?

 

First of all the wrath which is spoken about in I Thes 5:9 is the Second Death.  We are not appointed for the Second Death.  This was just as valid during the 1st century Church as it is for the 21st century Church.  Rev 3:10b says: I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth.  We will have been removed before this trial happens.

 

We need to go to Heaven because that is where Jesus is.  That is where He has prepared a place for us.  John 14:4 - You know the way to the place where I am going.

 

Where was Jesus going?  Where did He go to?  If one can answer correctly, we know we are going up into heaven.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

Well, if the wrath spoken about in 1 Thessalonians 5:9 is the Second Death, then we don't have to worry about it for at least another 1,000 years!

 

However, I don't think that's what the "wrath" is talking about. I believe that the wrath of God is incurred when God has had all He's going to take from the likes of sinful men. He will IMMEDIATELY cause troubles in this world that only God could produce, and only admitting that God exists would explain these troubles. He will also send back the Messiah. The Messiah returns and physically punishes people who have mistreated His people, primarily the children of Isra'el, although both the children of Isra'el and the believers in the Messiah who are Gentiles.

 

Look at 1 Thessalonians 5:9 again in some of its context:

 

1 Thessalonians 5:8-11

 

8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

KJV

 

The phrase "whether we wake or sleep" reflects back to 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17; so, this is NOT talking about AFTER the Millennium but BEFORE.

 

Secondly and parenthetical to this discussion about the Wrath, the word "salvation" is NOT what you or other Christians typically call "salvation." The individual being "born again" is technically called "justification by God" in the Scriptures, not "salvation." The word "salvation" refers to the national RESCUE of the children of Isra'el, particularly in prophecy. For instance, here's a common example of the error:

 

Romans 10:13

 

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

KJV

 

How many people do you know that use this verse for being "born again?" There's even the Romans' Road of Salvation tract that people will use to lead a "soul" to Christ. But, from where was this verse quoted? It was quoted from Joel 2:32. Let's look at it in context:

 

 

Joel 2:23-3:8

23 Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month.

24 And the floors shall be full of wheat, and the fats shall overflow with wine and oil.

25 And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you.

26 And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of the LORD your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my people shall never be ashamed.

27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.

28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.

30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.

31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the Lord come.

32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

3:1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,

2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.

3 And they have cast lots (gambled) for my people; and have given (traded) a boy for an harlot, and sold a girl for wine, that they might drink.

4 Yea, and what have ye to do with me, O Tyre, and Zidon, and all the coasts of Palestine? will ye render me a recompence? and if ye recompence me, swiftly and speedily will I return your recompence upon your own head;

5 Because ye have taken my silver and my gold, and have carried into your temples my goodly pleasant things:

6 The children also of Judah and the children of Jerusalem have ye sold unto the Grecians, that ye might remove them far from their border.

7 Behold, I will raise them out of the place whither ye have sold them, and will return your recompence upon your own head:

8 And I will sell your sons and your daughters into the hand of the children of Judah, and they shall sell them to the Sabeans, to a people far off: for the Lord hath spoken it.

KJV

 

Can you see what's going on in this prophecy? This is talking about the Day of the LORD, not just any ol' day that someone prays and gets right with God!

 

Understanding that, do you think it just might be possible that we are misusing Romans 10:13?

 

Let's go back and look at Romans 10:13 in some of ITS context:

 

Romans 9:1-11:32

9:1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,

2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.

3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.

10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

25 As he saith also in Osee (Hosea), I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

27 Esaias (Isaiah) also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.

29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.

30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)

7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)

8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.

20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.

21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,

3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumbling block, and a recompence unto them:

10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

KJV

 

"Taking away their sins" may SEEM like the crux of the matter, but it is actually a SIDE-EFFECT of the RESCUE, the DELIVERANCE! (End of the parenthetical insertion.)

 

Now, the Second Death is found in Revelation 20:14:

 

Revelation 20:7-15

 

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

KJV

 

Notice that this occurs AFTER the thousand years or the Millennium!

 

Hope you can follow all this.

[Montana Marv]

Roy

 

You are on a rabbit trail.

 

Salvation has past, present and future tenses,

 

1.  We have been saved from the penalty of sin.  Christ death on the cross, His burial and Resurrection

2.  We are being saved from the power of sin.      Our walk with Him.

3.  We will be saved from the presence of sin.      After death and Hades has been cast into the Lake of Fire.

 

Some of Gods Wrath

 

The earth had become so wicked that He had to remove Noah and his family and then destroyed all who lived on the earth.

Sodom and Gomorrah became so wicked that He had to remove Lot and his family and then destroyed all who lived there.

In like manner the world now is eating, drinking, marrying and given in marriage, it is a very wicked place to live, God in like manner will remove Christs family and then begin to pour out His Wrath on earth.  But the final wrath is the second death, which we as (1st Century to 21st Century Believers) will never experience.  The Bride is as ONE.

 

Israel on the other hand will go through this time of testing to purify them.  We are already purified.  1st to 21st Century Church.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[TWTaylor]

I see a lot of debate here and other forums about when there will be a RAPTURE. Can anyone help a person like me with some scriptures that say there is going to be a rapture. I don’t see anything in the bible that says there is going to be a rapture. It looks like people might be confusing or not understanding the 1^st resurrection.

[Montana Marv]

 

I see a lot of debate here and other forums about when there will be a RAPTURE. Can anyone help a person like me with some scriptures that say there is going to be a rapture. I don’t see anything in the bible that says there is going to be a rapture. It looks like people might be confusing or not understanding the 1^st resurrection.

 

 

TW

 

1 Thes  4:13-17.  This is a description of the harpozo (Rapture) for the Church.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[His Ambassador]

Actually the last part of Rev. 20 and the first part of Rev. 21 tells us exactly what will happen when Jesus returns.  And there is no rapture mentioned there.  Don't become part of the rapture cult.

[TWTaylor]

This sure sounds like the first resurrection to me. Might need to show me something else to go with it.

 

1Thes 4:15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

 

1Thes 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

 

1Thes 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

 

This group that will always be with the Lord are talked about in other places.

 

There is a group that is with the Lord, they are found in Rev 14. They follow Christ wherever He goes, but this is a small group, only 144,000. These are the firstfruits, It sounds like the same Elect to me.

 

Rev 14:1 Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father's name written on their foreheads.

 

Rev 14:3 They sang as it were a new song before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders; and no one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth.

 

Rev 14:4 These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb.

 

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

 

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

 

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

 

Matt 24:29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

 

Matt 24:30 "Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

 

Matt24:31 "And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

I started to write a article about the rapture a few years ago. I was going to put all the scripture I could find in support of the rapture, then put all the scripture that supported no rapture. I couldn’t find any support for a rapture, just debate about when a rapture would happen.

 

These people we are talking about belong to Christ. These people are Servants of God. These are Virgins. These are the Firstfruits, these don’t have the Mark of the Beast. John 17 tells how to know if we are a part of those that belong to Christ. They will be kept safe by the Father’s Name, Christ says that He has given the Father’s name to them.

 

John 17:6 "I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.

 

John 17:11 "Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are.

 

John 17:15 "I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one.

 

John 17:26 "And I have declared to them Your name, and will declare it, that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them."

Edited October 3, 2013 by TWTaylor

[TWTaylor]

Hello His Ambassador,

  I believe that if we find we are wrong about something we should repent. (change to what is correct) I think you for your concern. And I think Montana Marv for trying to show where he gets his beliefs about the rapture. I don’t remember anybody trying to answer where the scriptures are. It’s good to have friendly people that will try to help.

 

I understand the rapture started with a dream of a young Scottish girl and a preacher took off with it. I have nothing against Scottish girls, I an also Scottish.

Edited October 3, 2013 by TWTaylor

[Floatingaxe]

 

I understand the rapture started with a dream of a young Scottish girl and a preacher took off with it. I have nothing against Scottish girls, I an also Scottish.

 

 

That's the negative hype, but it isn't the truth. The word, 'rapture' comes from the Greek word, '(h)arpazo', found in scripture 14 times. It's definition is:

1. to seize, carry off by force
2. to seize on, claim for one's self eagerly
3. to snatch out or away

 

Jesus Christ will come to lay claim to His own eagerly.