Knowingtruth Posted August 15, 2013 Group: Senior Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 625 Content Per Day: 0.16 Reputation: 226 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/15/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted August 15, 2013 Paul lists spiritual gifts in 1 Corinthians 12-14, Romans 12, and Ephesians 4. Of the three, 1 Corinthians is generally believed to have been penned first, Romans second, and Ephesians last (in order of the letters we are speaking of here). The conditions in Corinth was worst. To bring order there, Paul came up with a condition of interpretation(that is not found in the book of Acts or elsewhere) hoping that speaking of unknown tongue prompted by person's spirit would cease as church grew in spirituality as it was sign meant for unbelievers. I believe it ceased there soon as people took the advice of Paul to prefer prophesying. We don't see this phenomenon of speaking in an unknown tongue either in Rome or Ephesian subsequently, and it is not listed in the corresponding epistles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenEagle Posted August 15, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 764 Topics Per Day: 0.18 Content Count: 7,626 Content Per Day: 1.80 Reputation: 1,559 Days Won: 44 Joined: 10/03/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted August 15, 2013 Paul lists spiritual gifts in 1 Corinthians 12-14, Romans 12, and Ephesians 4. Of the three, 1 Corinthians is generally believed to have been penned first, Romans second, and Ephesians last (in order of the letters we are speaking of here). The conditions in Corinth was worst. To bring order there, Paul came up with a condition of interpretation(that is not found in the book of Acts or elsewhere) hoping that speaking of unknown tongue prompted by person's spirit would cease as church grew in spirituality as it was sign meant for unbelievers. I believe it ceased there soon as people took the advice of Paul to prefer prophesying. We don't see this phenomenon of speaking in an unknown tongue either in Rome or Ephesian subsequently, and it is not listed in the corresponding epistles. < Grabs some popcorn. > For reference this has been discussed on the boards in length here... Let's remember to discuss the subject and not the person. Remember too that is possible to disagree on a subject/doctrine without insulting the person you are debating. God bless, GE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willa Posted August 15, 2013 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 68 Topic Count: 186 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 14,253 Content Per Day: 3.32 Reputation: 16,667 Days Won: 30 Joined: 08/14/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted August 15, 2013 We are told that we don't know what we should pray for as we ought, but the SPIRIT HIMSELF MAKES INTERCESSION FOR US with groanings which cannot be uttered.. Romans 8:26-27. We are also told to "PRAY ALWAYS with all prayer and supplication IN THE SPIRIT". EPHESIANS 6:16 And again,---- BUILDING YOURSELF UP on your most holy faith, PRAYING IN THE HOLY SPIRIT, keep yourselves in the love of God,-- Jude 20-21 (1Cor. 14:4 explains that he who speaks in a tongue edifies or builds up himself. v2 also says that he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God.). Finally Paul stated that he was thankful that he spoke with tongues more than you all. 1 Cor. 14:18. NKJV There are other uses of praying in the Spirit than it being a sign to unbelievers. We are encouraged in several places in the Bible to pray in the Spirit. This is most often done in private since it was to edify ones self, to intercede or to implore as well as to bless God from our hearts, rather than to be used in the church, ( unless someone could interpret.) Perhaps tongues have ceased among some church members, but if so it is sad. Evidently Paul greatly valued this gift and found it profitable. It is better to build up the church if one has to choose. But God don't make no junk. Tongues has accompanied most great awakenings and movements (from the dark ages to anabaptists to methodist), but has also encountered abuses as at the church at Corinth. It is not estatic utterances as some claim, (because many very calm logical people pray in this manner), but instead it is according to the person's personality. Some traditions quench the Spirit or make excuses for disregarding parts of God's Word, but those individuals who take God's Word most litterally with faith like a little child often find gifts still operating. Perhaps we should all pray "Lord I believe, help my unbelief." It is sad that so many people find tongues to be a stumbling block when it should be a blessing. But seeing souls saved is the greatest miracle and blessing. It all just needs to be kept in perspective. As long as people are still coming to repentance and confessing Jesus as Lord and Savior, and then being disciipled, the church is healthy and growing. That is what is important. Blessings brother, Willa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knowingtruth Posted August 16, 2013 Group: Senior Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 625 Content Per Day: 0.16 Reputation: 226 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/15/2013 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 16, 2013 (edited) Paul lists spiritual gifts in 1 Corinthians 12-14, Romans 12, and Ephesians 4. Of the three, 1 Corinthians is generally believed to have been penned first, Romans second, and Ephesians last (in order of the letters we are speaking of here). The conditions in Corinth was worst. To bring order there, Paul came up with a condition of interpretation(that is not found in the book of Acts or elsewhere) hoping that speaking of unknown tongue prompted by person's spirit would cease as church grew in spirituality as it was sign meant for unbelievers. I believe it ceased there soon as people took the advice of Paul to prefer prophesying. We don't see this phenomenon of speaking in an unknown tongue either in Rome or Ephesian subsequently, and it is not listed in the corresponding epistles. < Grabs some popcorn. > For reference this has been discussed on the boards in length here... Let's remember to discuss the subject and not the person. Remember too that is possible to disagree on a subject/doctrine without insulting the person you are debating. God bless, GE Thank for your reference. It is going to a mine of knowledge for me. Be blessed. Edited August 16, 2013 by Knowingtruth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knowingtruth Posted August 16, 2013 Group: Senior Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 625 Content Per Day: 0.16 Reputation: 226 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/15/2013 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 16, 2013 Paul lists spiritual gifts in 1 Corinthians 12-14, Romans 12, and Ephesians 4. Of the three, 1 Corinthians is generally believed to have been penned first, Romans second, and Ephesians last (in order of the letters we are speaking of here). The conditions in Corinth was worst. To bring order there, Paul came up with a condition of interpretation(that is not found in the book of Acts or elsewhere) hoping that speaking of unknown tongue prompted by person's spirit would cease as church grew in spirituality as it was sign meant for unbelievers. I believe it ceased there soon as people took the advice of Paul to prefer prophesying. We don't see this phenomenon of speaking in an unknown tongue either in Rome or Ephesian subsequently, and it is not listed in the corresponding epistles. < Grabs some popcorn. > For reference this has been discussed on the boards in length here... Let's remember to discuss the subject and not the person. Remember too that is possible to disagree on a subject/doctrine without insulting the person you are debating. God bless, GE Thank for your reference. It is going to a mine of knowledge for me. Be blessed. Typo correction.Please read as 'Thanks'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missmuffet Posted August 16, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 34 Topic Count: 1,993 Topics Per Day: 0.48 Content Count: 48,691 Content Per Day: 11.76 Reputation: 30,343 Days Won: 226 Joined: 01/11/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted August 16, 2013 At the same time, if the gift of speaking in tongues were active in the church today, it would be performed in agreement with Scripture. It would be a real and intelligible language (1 Corinthians 14:10). It would be for the purpose of communicating God's Word with a person of another language (Acts 2:6-12). It would be in agreement with the command God gave through the apostle Paul, “If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God” (1 Corinthians 14:27-28). It would also be in accordance with 1 Corinthians 14:33, “For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sanh Posted August 16, 2013 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 123 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 4 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/01/2010 Status: Offline Share Posted August 16, 2013 (edited) Paul lists spiritual gifts in 1 Corinthians 12-14, Romans 12, and Ephesians 4. Of the three, 1 Corinthians is generally believed to have been penned first, Romans second, and Ephesians last (in order of the letters we are speaking of here). The conditions in Corinth was worst. To bring order there, Paul came up with a condition of interpretation(that is not found in the book of Acts or elsewhere) hoping that speaking of unknown tongue prompted by person's spirit would cease as church grew in spirituality as it was sign meant for unbelievers. I believe it ceased there soon as people took the advice of Paul to prefer prophesying. We don't see this phenomenon of speaking in an unknown tongue either in Rome or Ephesian subsequently, and it is not listed in the corresponding epistles. Does it follow that because you do not see or witness that phenomenon today, you believe same ceases to happen to all? Who do you believe calls the shots when it comes to speaking in tongues? Edited August 16, 2013 by Sanh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knowingtruth Posted August 16, 2013 Group: Senior Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 625 Content Per Day: 0.16 Reputation: 226 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/15/2013 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 16, 2013 (edited) We are told that we don't know what we should pray for as we ought, but the SPIRIT HIMSELF MAKES INTERCESSION FOR US with groanings which cannot be uttered.. Romans 8:26-27. We are also told to "PRAY ALWAYS with all prayer and supplication IN THE SPIRIT". EPHESIANS 6:16 And again,---- BUILDING YOURSELF UP on your most holy faith, PRAYING IN THE HOLY SPIRIT, keep yourselves in the love of God,-- Jude 20-21 (1Cor. 14:4 explains that he who speaks in a tongue edifies or builds up himself. v2 also says that he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God.). Finally Paul stated that he was thankful that he spoke with tongues more than you all. 1 Cor. 14:18. NKJV There are other uses of praying in the Spirit than it being a sign to unbelievers. We are encouraged in several places in the Bible to pray in the Spirit. This is most often done in private since it was to edify ones self, to intercede or to implore as well as to bless God from our hearts, rather than to be used in the church, ( unless someone could interpret.) Perhaps tongues have ceased among some church members, but if so it is sad. Evidently Paul greatly valued this gift and found it profitable. It is better to build up the church if one has to choose. But God don't make no junk. Tongues has accompanied most great awakenings and movements (from the dark ages to anabaptists to methodist), but has also encountered abuses as at the church at Corinth. It is not estatic utterances as some claim, (because many very calm logical people pray in this manner), but instead it is according to the person's personality. Some traditions quench the Spirit or make excuses for disregarding parts of God's Word, but those individuals who take God's Word most litterally with faith like a little child often find gifts still operating. Perhaps we should all pray "Lord I believe, help my unbelief." It is sad that so many people find tongues to be a stumbling block when it should be a blessing. But seeing souls saved is the greatest miracle and blessing. It all just needs to be kept in perspective. As long as people are still coming to repentance and confessing Jesus as Lord and Savior, and then being disciipled, the church is healthy and growing. That is what is important. Blessings brother, Willa There is a misconception here. In Romans 8:26-27, it is not the Holy Spirit that is groaning! This is evident if you looked at the previous verses in the context, that is, Romans 8:22 &23. The Holy Spirit only makes known to God what a person is groaning for without expressing in words. Similarly, in Ephesians 6:18 (not 16 as indicated by you) you are taking help of the Holy Spirit--the word used is supplication in KJV--to pray, not that the Holy Spirit prays to God on your behalf! We do not see anywhere in the Bible the Holy Spirit praying to God, let alone for mortals! The Holy Spirit is our Helper to discern the truth, and not sent to pray directly for us! Similarly, Jude 20 indicates praying with the help of the Holy Spirit. Therefore, a person will continue to pray on his own and praying also for the help of the Holy Spirit in this matter. Please refer KJV Bible that is more authoratative. Paul is referring to speaking in tongue in prayer is between person and God. That is for personal edification. There is no problem in that. Paul did that personally and separately, never in a church. Therefore, claim of praying in Spirit is not Bible supported. Of course, one can pray taking the help of the Holy Spirit. Always one prays with his spirit. Sorry, IMO Paul never greatly valued this method of praying. In fact, he lists at the end, and advised not to desire this but seek the gift of prophesying. Why one should seek lower grades? Ana Baptists and Methodists were not there at the time Corinthian church. Edited August 16, 2013 by GoldenEagle <<< Edits in red... Removed insult. >>> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knowingtruth Posted August 16, 2013 Group: Senior Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 625 Content Per Day: 0.16 Reputation: 226 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/15/2013 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 16, 2013 At the same time, if the gift of speaking in tongues were active in the church today, it would be performed in agreement with Scripture. It would be a real and intelligible language (1 Corinthians 14:10). It would be for the purpose of communicating God's Word with a person of another language (Acts 2:6-12). It would be in agreement with the command God gave through the apostle Paul, “If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God” (1 Corinthians 14:27-28). It would also be in accordance with 1 Corinthians 14:33, “For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.” To summarise as I see it, the phenomenon that was only local in Corinth ceased subsequently for thousands of years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missmuffet Posted August 16, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 34 Topic Count: 1,993 Topics Per Day: 0.48 Content Count: 48,691 Content Per Day: 11.76 Reputation: 30,343 Days Won: 226 Joined: 01/11/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted August 16, 2013 At the same time, if the gift of speaking in tongues were active in the church today, it would be performed in agreement with Scripture. It would be a real and intelligible language (1 Corinthians 14:10). It would be for the purpose of communicating God's Word with a person of another language (Acts 2:6-12). It would be in agreement with the command God gave through the apostle Paul, “If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God” (1 Corinthians 14:27-28). It would also be in accordance with 1 Corinthians 14:33, “For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.” To summarise as I see it, the phenomenon that was only local in Corinth ceased subsequently for thousands of years. That is the way I see it.It is no longer useful today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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