The Creationist

[enoob57]

 

 

 we have a belief system where when we die, we simply stop existing

Then the love you hold for others is unimportant as only one who is self absorbed and incapable of other centered existence(?)

Love, Steven

 

I am unsure how you reached that conclusion.

 

Because you see cessation as relief... but the Love I hold for some- cessation would be sorrow for the treasure that is there, that which they are,

just to end and be no more! The qualities of love God has placed in my heart yearns for them to be eternal because of the worth that is there!

Love, Steven

[Guest]

I'm not sure I'd count evolution as "hopeless".

 

For

And they said, There is no hope: but we will walk after our own devices, and we will every one do the imagination of his evil heart. Jeremiah 18:12

 

Sure

But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death. Proverbs 8:36

 

Hope

Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. John 14:27

 

Believe

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

[RobbyPants]

 

 

 

 we have a belief system where when we die, we simply stop existing

Then the love you hold for others is unimportant as only one who is self absorbed and incapable of other centered existence(?)

Love, Steven

 

I am unsure how you reached that conclusion.

 

Because you see cessation as relief... but the Love I hold for some- cessation would be sorrow for the treasure that is there, that which they are,

just to end and be no more! The qualities of love God has placed in my heart yearns for them to be eternal because of the worth that is there!

Love, Steven

 

 

I never said I saw it as a relief. I said, in comparison to a world where 65+% of the population gets tortured for eternity, it seems like a better deal. I'm sure cessation would be a relief to someone being tortured for infinity years.

 

That being said, since I don't assume that I'm going to be tortured for infinity years, I don't find cessation a relief at all. I rather like being alive! 

[enoob57]

I never said I saw it as a relief. I said, in comparison to a world where 65+% of the population gets tortured for eternity, it seems like a better deal. I'm sure cessation would be a relief to someone being tortured for infinity years.

 

That being said, since I don't assume that I'm going to be tortured for infinity years, I don't find cessation a relief at all. I rather like being alive! 

 

You whole place of thought is obscured by not understanding that which is in hell...

2 Tim 3:2-6

2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers,

disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without

self-control, brutal, despisers of good, 4 traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure

rather than lovers of God, 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from

such people turn away!

NKJV

they see others as only a means of gain for themselves... self absorbed to the point of

true psychopathy!  There is no value in these with community as social formation...

 

It would be like lamenting over puss that has leaked out of your body and fallen to the ground!

Love, Steven

[neil_]

 Is it the fallacy of false dilemma, where you only allow two options?  

 

Looking forward for your third.

 

Edit: I later saw that you postulated it: an eternal universe. Well, you should make up your mind: you’re either a big bang supporter, or not. If not, state plainly what is it exactly that you believe in. If instead you are, then stick to big bang, and not switch your gloves as you find fit. It isn’t honest in relation to the other participants in the forum.

 

 

  Is it the fallacy of argument via straw man, where you describe the non-creationist position as "nothing created matter, order..."?     

 

OK: who (or what) “created matter, order”?

 

 

    Is it the fallacy of begging the question, where you use the term "create" in describing the non-creationist position?   

 

Funny: create, creating, creation are all terms also used by hardcore evolutionists. But obviously not referring to the Biblical Creation. So they are hereby accused of stealing!

 

Just as I’m accusing all the atheists in the world: even the wrong formal cosmology (the big bang) comes from a priest. Not to mention Newton and all the others, who indeed all believed in God. Even Einstein believed in a Deity, although a peculiar one (apparently not a personal one).

 

So I’m sick of atheists STEALING other people’s work, in complete OPPOSITION with the original authors’ intention. So if you want a universe without God, why don’t you make YOUR OWN universe, without using any of the work of the believers. So you can’t use Copernicus, Newton, Einstein etc.

 

But you can use Dawkins, Hitchens, Shermer etc. Let’s see what kind of a universe you can make with such “experts” on your side…

 

 

  ....the fallacy of argument from popularity?  

 

Now that’s funny. Because I asked you and the other atheists on this forum several times to prove the big bang universe (the universe that you believe in) and you each time avoided that. In other words, you only believe in big bang because it’s the formal cosmology, not because you understand it, and least of all because you can defend it. Popularity, anyone?

 

 

    There is also the Hawking proposal where, since time itself began with the big bang, "everything" has always existed.  

 

That’s a very strange way to claim eternity…

 

I will personally stick to the Christian way. In other words, to the real eternity: the one outside time…

 

 

    In order to support your claim, you need to present actual data describing the views on evolution and creationism among members of the scientific community,   

 

You’re running in circles, buddy, and not even notice it - if by scientific community you mean evolutionary community…

[neil_]

   If there was a higher power, than who created God?     

 

If you have no idea of the topics you talk about, then why do you talk about them?

 

Regardless, the answer to your pseudo-question is this: nobody.

 

That’s what God is about: the only one not being created. Simply because He’s the Creator…

[neil_]

but I've never understood why the universe couldn't also be timeless or eternal.

 

I think you should make up your mind, so that we all here know what you’re talking about: you’re either a big bang supporter, or not. If not, state plainly what is it exactly that you believe in.

 

 

  I'm not sure I'd count evolution as "hopeless".     

 

Simple: evolution is hopeless for EVERYBODY. While Christ is hope for the third that you talked about. Only that I have to amend that figure to MUCH less. After all, the demons also believe that Jesus is the Son of God (they actually KNOW that), so…

 

 

   I'm going to be tortured for infinity years 

 

What’s going to do the torture will be your very own consciousness: a full, complete, thorough one, this time along…

 

After all, you atheists claim reason, don’t you? So don’t worry, what you’ll have is PLENTY of reason. Trust me, if it were at all possible for you to get out of there, you would never ask for reason again…

[RobbyPants]

 

but I've never understood why the universe couldn't also be timeless or eternal.

 

I think you should make up your mind, so that we all here know what you’re talking about: you’re either a big bang supporter, or not. If not, state plainly what is it exactly that you believe in.

 

 

It doesn't matter what I believe. I'm stating why the cosmological argument isn't a good one. It relies on the assumptions that:

1. Everything has a cause.
2. Except God, because he's eternal.

That's special pleading. You make a universal law, then demand an exception to it to prove the argument. It doesn't hold up.

 

 

 

  I'm not sure I'd count evolution as "hopeless".     

 

Simple: evolution is hopeless for EVERYBODY. While Christ is hope for the third that you talked about. Only that I have to amend that figure to MUCH less. After all, the demons also believe that Jesus is the Son of God (they actually KNOW that), so…

 

 

 

 

   I'm going to be tortured for infinity years 

 

What’s going to do the torture will be your very own consciousness: a full, complete, thorough one, this time along…

 

After all, you atheists claim reason, don’t you? So don’t worry, what you’ll have is PLENTY of reason. Trust me, if it were at all possible for you to get out of there, you would never ask for reason again…

 

I'm honestly not sure where you're going with this. I never said demons didn't know about God or that people being tortured wouldn't want it to stop. This appears to be some odd non sequitur... possibly leading in to Pascal's Wager? I'm not sure about that last part, and I don't want to put words in your mouth.

[neil_]

    It doesn't matter what I believe.    

 

If so, then why are you even talking? Not especially here, but anywhere?

 

 

    It relies on the assumptions that:

1. Everything has a cause.    

 

If everything doesn’t have a cause, then what exactly does everything have? Things just appear from thin nothing – magically?

 

By the way, I don’t claim that EVERYTHING has a cause. The most important doesn’t have a cause. The most important is the cause of everything else…

 

 

  2. Except God, because he's eternal.     

 

No, buddy. Because He is God, that’s why. Being eternal is only a tiny part of what God is.

 

 

    That's special pleading. You make a universal law, then demand an exception to it to prove the argument. It doesn't hold up.    

 

Of course it does. Because your logic is flawed. God is NOT contained in the universe (the entire universe is for God immensely less than what a speck of dust is for us), while any UNIVERSal law can only refer to the UNIVERSe…

 

 

     I'm not sure about that last part, and I don't want to put words in your mouth.   

 

That would be a first. Thanks.

[RobbyPants]

 

    It doesn't matter what I believe.    

 

If so, then why are you even talking? Not especially here, but anywhere?

 

 

Me personally believing or not believing something doesn't make it so.

 

 

    It relies on the assumptions that:

1. Everything has a cause.    

 

If everything doesn’t have a cause, then what exactly does everything have? Things just appear from thin nothing – magically?

 

By the way, I don’t claim that EVERYTHING has a cause. The most important doesn’t have a cause. The most important is the cause of everything else…

 

 

By the way, I wasn't arguing this point. It was just important to bring up for context of the second point.

 

 

 

  2. Except God, because he's eternal.     

 

No, buddy. Because He is God, that’s why. Being eternal is only a tiny part of what God is.

 

 

Says who? You? Do you have any proof, or is this just an underlying assumption you have to make to come up with an exception?

 

 

 

 

    That's special pleading. You make a universal law, then demand an exception to it to prove the argument. It doesn't hold up.    

 

Of course it does. Because your logic is flawed. God is NOT contained in the universe (the entire universe is for God immensely less than what a speck of dust is for us), while any UNIVERSal law can only refer to the UNIVERSe…

 

 

Based on what evidence? Again, it seems like an assumption you are making so you can fill in the gaps of the cosmological argument.

 

 

 

     I'm not sure about that last part, and I don't want to put words in your mouth.   

 

That would be a first. Thanks.

 

 

Really? When did I put words in your mouth? Quotes would be nice. Also, what's with all the hostility?