It Is All A Process

[OneWithGod]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Tell me one thing, when you were first saved, was your faith and works as they are today? Were you immediately made mature with all understanding, perfect in all of Gods ways?

 

No, it took me 25 years to let God perfect me into a son of God. Then in the last 6-7 years Christ has perfected me even more like Him. - Glory to glory.

 

It seems scripture speaks against being perfect while still being in this life. Paul spoke one particular time about the difference in 1 Corinthians 13:12 "For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known." It is possible to assume certain scripture is telling us that we cannot sin once we are born again, but that does go against scripture, for there are far more verses in scripture that instructs us to continue the good fight, to win the race, to carry our cross daily ... all this inferring that we do have the ability to sin when born again. There is nowhere in scripture that tells us that the old man is dead in us, just that our following the sin nature is no longer the reigning factor. We have been shown a better way.

 

 

 

 

Again, you place a yoke around your own neck, along with others, but trying to tell them that they need to be sinless, which is impossible to do, but what we strive to be.

 

Christ's yoke is light - for all the things Christ calls me to do is what I desire to do, which makes it easy. When a person has the nature/Spirit of Christ, they will naturally do the things of Christ.

 

 

You don't understand what I am saying. I am not questioning God, but man. For you to never sin is impossible while still living in this flesh. IF you were sinless, you would not be alive. You see, if being born again was the end all, there would be nothing more for God to instruct us in after the process of being born again was complete.

 

 

This is where you are very, very wrong. Christ came to overcome and clense all sin out of us through the work of His Grace and Holy Spirit.

 

I do live without committing any willful sins anymore. This is the power of Christ living in me. I am very much alive and righteous in Christ, because it is ALL Christ living in me.

 

Come to Christ and believe and be free from sin as Christ has promised - Free Indeed.

 

If you will not have faith in what Christ has come to do in you, which is to cleanse you of ALL sin, then you will never be cleansed of ALL sin, because of your lack of faith in Christ and His promises.

 

There is much more to do for the Lord and more power to do it all after being born of God then before being born of God. You probably just won't know about these things until you experience it for your self.

 

I have no problem with Christ dying for our sin, nor do I have any problem with Him working in me to make me like Christ, nor do I have any problem with leaning on Him in time of need. What I have a problem with is your teaching that one can be sinless in this world, meaning that if they are not sinless, they are not His, for God cannot allow sin into His presence. That is a false teaching and have caused many to feel like they are lost forever, even if they truly believe in Christ and His salvation ... all become someone told them that if they truly was His, they would never sin.

If anyone knows the weakness of us it is God Himself. He knows that even with His Spirit in us, we still become weak at times.

 

Then you must have a problem believing God's Word, because God's Word says anyone that sins is of the devil and not of God. When a person has been totally transformed into Christ's likeness and they no longer sin against God, then they are the sons of God, but if anyone is still in bondage to sin, they are still of the devil's nature.

 

You can believe what you desire to believe, unless you decide to believe God's Word over your own selfish opinions and reasoning. God has given everyone the choice of what they will believe. Most people's beliefs will not be of God's Truth by choice, but there will always be a few that will desire and gravitate to God for His Truth to be real in their lives.

 

You fail to see this is a life long process, which is why you continue to be blinded to the truth. While in this life, you will never uphold the righteousness of God. This is impossible.  The completion is when we are finally with Christ after death.

 

Yes, I fail to see your concept of a never ending process of being a sinner. Scripture supports a process that results in complete sanctification from sin - for Christ will "CLEANSE US FROM ALL UN-RIGHTEOUSNESS". Do you think God's promises are fake or lies?  If we are cleansed from ALL unrighteousness, then there is no sin in us any longer.

 

I also fail to see your process of never ending sin, because I have finished that process and I am done with sin. Just because you are still in sin, probably because that is your beliefs, it doesn't mean everyone else stays a sinner like you claim.

If what you presented was true, then nobody would be saved for we all sin.  Again, you take the intention of scripture, for one to have a goal of being like Christ, and make it a law.  The whole of John's teaching is very dangerous in the hands of the self righteous who think of themselves more than they ought to.  Romans 12:3  "For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith."

 

I have been given a measure of faith to free me from all my sin, where is your faith or lack of faith. Christ did this in me and it was not of my self, other than desiring and believing in God's grace and promises. God's Word says there will only be the few. I think you better decide if you are going to be amoung the few - it is your choice.

Jesus prayed for all who would believe in Him through the teachings of the Apostles in John 17:20-23

“I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me."

 

Yes, I am one in Christ. Christ is in me and I am in Christ. If I am one with Christ, how do you think I could ever sin against this oneness in Christ again?

Jesus said "may be" 4 times. He did not say must be or will be, but may be, which is a goal to seek. Then there is also the word "perfect". I gave you the the definitions before about the word itself, now let's look at the phrase "made perfect" that is found in the scripture above.

 

We are called to be perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect - this is possible by having a full faith in Christ.

 

We are called to go on to perfection - this is possible by having a full faith in Christ.

 

If your desire to stay a sinner, then that is fine, but you will not bring down the sons of God that are Christ-like to your level, just because you don't believe it possible. The only ones that you are hurting by your lack of faith is you and anyone else that you proclaim and get to believe in your sinners theology. That is your choice and their choice of what they will believe or not believe, but quit tearing down others to be sinners, just to make you comfortable in your sins and theology.

 

τελειόω

G5048

teleioō

1) to make perfect, complete

... a) to carry through completely, to accomplish, finish, bring to an end

Yes, Christ has brought my sanctification to a completion in Him and He will for any others that will have the faith for this also.

2) to complete (perfect)

... a) add what is yet wanting in order to render a thing full

... b) to be found perfect

3) to bring to the end (goal) proposed

4) to accomplish

... a) bring to a close or fulfilment by event

...... 1) of the prophecies of the scriptures

Thru Christ anything is possible, but evidently not for you or others that lack faith in God. God's love has perfected me and this has been accomplished in the grace of God.

 

Rev 2:7 - He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes , I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.  NIV

 

I am now eating from the tree of life, which fills me and overflows goodness every day of my life.

 

Rev 21:7-8 - He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8 But the cowardly, THE UNBELIEVING , the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars — their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."  NIV

 

Since I have overcome the world of sin through and in Christ, I have inherited God's kingdom and I am called His Son.

You are taking a concept, a goal, and making it a law as I mentioned before. You have been shown that this is wrong by many members, yet you do not seem to even want to discuss, but debate. Why is that?

 

Heb 12:14 - Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.  NIV

 

This is right from God's Word - a person needs to be holy, otherwise they will never see the Lord.

 

I am trying to have you be saved onto eternity for God's glory and for your own good by believing in God's Truth and leave the lies of the devil behind. Please listen, your eternity depends on it. God is sending you a message. Please don't reject it, but come to believe in Christ and His full salvation before it is to late.

 

 

[OneWithGod]

 

The differences between the newer and the older versions are about 5% and are mostly found through out the New Testament portion. They all have to do with the holiness or lack of holiness that interpreters have believed and now have written into the scriptures - which are different from the original writtings and intent of the scripture. They have added and removed words in very important holiness passages, or what should of stayed holiness passages.

I am curious. By your statement, you sound like you belong to the holiness movement. Which holiness movement and church do you belong to?

 

I don't really fit fully into any denomination or movement of today, but the Wesleyan and Nazarene doctrines come the closest to the Truth God has given me. Even the Wesleyans and Nazarenes have left the holiness movement and their own doctrinal beliefs. Even though I don't match these holiness doctrines exactly, God is using me to try to bring these churches back to holiness again.

[Elhanan]

Then you must have a problem believing God's Word, because God's Word says anyone that sins is of the devil and not of God. When a person has been totally transformed into Christ's likeness and they no longer sin against God, then they are the sons of God, but if anyone is still in bondage to sin, they are still of the devil's nature.

 

Points of agreement: 1) salvation is a process; with past, present & future aspects, 2) salvation is evidenced by (not caused by) works as one continues the personal sanctification process.

 

Point of disagreement: The sanctification process results in one becoming sinless in one's lifetime.

The notion that one no longer sins contradicts 1 Jn 1:8  "If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us."

 

Also your claim that God's Word says anyone that sins is of the devil and not of God is not quite accurate as to you are referencing 1 John 1:8.

"the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning."

The word "practices" or "doing" is translated from the Greek word poion.  ποιῶν / poion is a present active participle. It means one that consistently sins and is still currently doing so. It is a prolonged or ongoing sense of something that is being done. In other words: a person who habitually sins. Therefore your assertion that anyone who commits one-time, occasional sins is of the devil is not accurate as the verse refers to willful habitual sin.

[OneWithGod]

 

Then you must have a problem believing God's Word, because God's Word says anyone that sins is of the devil and not of God. When a person has been totally transformed into Christ's likeness and they no longer sin against God, then they are the sons of God, but if anyone is still in bondage to sin, they are still of the devil's nature.

 

Points of agreement: 1) salvation is a process; with past, present & future aspects, 2) salvation is evidenced by (not caused by) works as one continues the personal sanctification process.

 

Point of disagreement: The sanctification process results in one becoming sinless in one's lifetime.

The notion that one no longer sins contradicts 1 Jn 1:8  "If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us."

 

Also your claim that God's Word says anyone that sins is of the devil and not of God is not quite accurate as to you are referencing 1 John 1:8.

"the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning."

The word "practices" or "doing" is translated from the Greek word poion.  ποιῶν / poion is a present active participle. It means one that consistently sins and is still currently doing so. It is a prolonged or ongoing sense of something that is being done. In other words: a person who habitually sins. Therefore your assertion that anyone who commits one-time, occasional sins is of the devil is not accurate as the verse refers to willful habitual sin.

 

OKAY, HAVE IT YOUR WAY.

[Elhanan]

 

 

Then you must have a problem believing God's Word, because God's Word says anyone that sins is of the devil and not of God. When a person has been totally transformed into Christ's likeness and they no longer sin against God, then they are the sons of God, but if anyone is still in bondage to sin, they are still of the devil's nature.

 

Points of agreement: 1) salvation is a process; with past, present & future aspects, 2) salvation is evidenced by (not caused by) works as one continues the personal sanctification process.

 

Point of disagreement: The sanctification process results in one becoming sinless in one's lifetime.

The notion that one no longer sins contradicts 1 Jn 1:8  "If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us."

 

Also your claim that God's Word says anyone that sins is of the devil and not of God is not quite accurate as to you are referencing 1 John 1:8.

"the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning."

The word "practices" or "doing" is translated from the Greek word poion.  ποιῶν / poion is a present active participle. It means one that consistently sins and is still currently doing so. It is a prolonged or ongoing sense of something that is being done. In other words: a person who habitually sins. Therefore your assertion that anyone who commits one-time, occasional sins is of the devil is not accurate as the verse refers to willful habitual sin.

 

OKAY, HAVE IT YOUR WAY.

 

In that case, make mine Super-Size without the pickles please!

[GoldenEagle]

 

 

Then you must have a problem believing God's Word, because God's Word says anyone that sins is of the devil and not of God. When a person has been totally transformed into Christ's likeness and they no longer sin against God, then they are the sons of God, but if anyone is still in bondage to sin, they are still of the devil's nature.

 

Points of agreement: 1) salvation is a process; with past, present & future aspects, 2) salvation is evidenced by (not caused by) works as one continues the personal sanctification process.

 

Point of disagreement: The sanctification process results in one becoming sinless in one's lifetime.

The notion that one no longer sins contradicts 1 Jn 1:8  "If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us."

 

Also your claim that God's Word says anyone that sins is of the devil and not of God is not quite accurate as to you are referencing 1 John 1:8.

"the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning."

The word "practices" or "doing" is translated from the Greek word poion.  ποιῶν / poion is a present active participle. It means one that consistently sins and is still currently doing so. It is a prolonged or ongoing sense of something that is being done. In other words: a person who habitually sins. Therefore your assertion that anyone who commits one-time, occasional sins is of the devil is not accurate as the verse refers to willful habitual sin.

 

OKAY, HAVE IT YOUR WAY.

 

 

So when someone shows your view to be errant from a Biblical perspective you simply leave the discussion? Interesting.

[GoldenEagle]

 

In that case, make mine Super-Size without the pickles please!

 

Right... Lol

[GoldenEagle]

 

 

 

This is right from God's Word - a person needs to be holy, otherwise they will never see the Lord.

 

I am trying to have you be saved onto eternity for God's glory and for your own good by believing in God's Truth and leave the lies of the devil behind. Please listen, your eternity depends on it. God is sending you a message. Please don't reject it, but come to believe in Christ and His full salvation before it is to late.

 

 

 

There is no one human being who is holy. The only One who was perfect (holy) was and is Jesus Christ.

 

Salvation isn't dependent on our holiness as human beings but on God's grace in giving us the faith to believe.

 

You bring a dangerous, false Gospel friend.

 

 

I don't really fit fully into any denomination or movement of today, but the Wesleyan and Nazarene doctrines come the closest to the Truth God has given me. Even the Wesleyans and Nazarenes have left the holiness movement and their own doctrinal beliefs. Even though I don't match these holiness doctrines exactly, God is using me to try to bring these churches back to holiness again.

 

 

 

Right. So underlined in both these quotes of what you've said you are a self-proclaimed prophet of God? I don't think so. The Holy Spirit living in me rejects your teachings.

 

Matthew 7:15

Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves.

 

1 John 4:1

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.

 

2 Peter 2:1

But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.

 

Eph. 5:11

Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them.

 

2 Cor. 11:13-15

For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.

 

Your words in this thread bring bondage and not freedom friend. Nobody can obtain perfection this side of Christ's Second return.

 

God bless you.

 

Praying for God to open your eyes,

GE

[Qnts2]

To start, sanctified means to be separated, or more specifically, separated for the purposes of God. In the OT, vessels and utensils to be used for service in the Temple, were said to be sanctified. A bowl is just a bowl, but the bowls used in the Temple were sanctified, separated for the service of God, for use in the Temple only.

 

In the NT, there seem to be three differing categories of use for the word 'sanctified'. I call the two different uses as, initial sanctification. That occurs at the moment of salvation. At that point, we are sanctified for the purposes of God. We have been separated from the world and separated unto God for His purposes. 

 

 1 Cor 1:2 To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours:

 

Saints who have been sanctified. This is in the past tense for all who call of the name of the Lord.

 

1 Cor 6:11

Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

 

2 Timothy 1:9

Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

 

 

Sanctification occurs with justification. So when we are saved, we are also sanctified and made holy.

 

The second sanctification is a continuing process. I call this continuing sanctification. While we are set aside for Gods purposes at salvation, as we grow and mature, various thoughts and actions are changed by the teaching and trials of God, so that our minds and hearts come into agreement with God. This is a continuing action of sanctification.

 

 

Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

 

 

A third is when we have come to the point where everything we are has been conformed to the image of Messiah. I view this as entire sanctification and is the end goal. At various points in Pauls life he speaks of falling short and at others he speaks of having achieved. Pauls most interesting comment is as follows.

 

 

Gal 2:20

I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

 

This is true. We no longer live, Messiah lives in us. The old man is dead. Entire sanctification is living entirely by faith. Everything that we do is done in service to God.  

 

We are working out our salvation. Since we have received salvation, what does working out our own salvation mean? It is the process of growing to live fully in what we have received at salvation. We have already received it, but are now re-learning to live in what we have received. Likewise, we are sanctified at the moment of salvation and are learning to live fully in what we have received. 

 

The most difficult verse in scripture to me is in Hebrews.

 

Hebrews 10:14

For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.

 

Ok, so we receive sanctification at the time of salvation. We have been separated from the world and separated for Gods purposes. But Hebrews 10:14 also indicates we were perfected. We were made perfect when we were santified and received salvation. So, what does perfect mean? Made whole. Nothing more needs to be added. We are now whole, for all time. Yet, we need to grow into what we have received.

[OneWithGod]

 

 

 

Then you must have a problem believing God's Word, because God's Word says anyone that sins is of the devil and not of God. When a person has been totally transformed into Christ's likeness and they no longer sin against God, then they are the sons of God, but if anyone is still in bondage to sin, they are still of the devil's nature.

 

Points of agreement: 1) salvation is a process; with past, present & future aspects, 2) salvation is evidenced by (not caused by) works as one continues the personal sanctification process.

 

Point of disagreement: The sanctification process results in one becoming sinless in one's lifetime.

The notion that one no longer sins contradicts 1 Jn 1:8  "If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us."

 

Also your claim that God's Word says anyone that sins is of the devil and not of God is not quite accurate as to you are referencing 1 John 1:8.

"the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning."

The word "practices" or "doing" is translated from the Greek word poion.  ποιῶν / poion is a present active participle. It means one that consistently sins and is still currently doing so. It is a prolonged or ongoing sense of something that is being done. In other words: a person who habitually sins. Therefore your assertion that anyone who commits one-time, occasional sins is of the devil is not accurate as the verse refers to willful habitual sin.

 

OKAY, HAVE IT YOUR WAY.

 

 

So when someone shows your view to be errant from a Biblical perspective you simply leave the discussion? Interesting.

 

I am called to help people have a deeper and truer faith in God, but only for the ones that desire a deeper, truer, and holier faith in God. If anyone desires to stay and believe things that keep them comfortable in their sinful lifestyle, then I should not try to change their mind - like I could do that anyway.