Predestination Ouestions

[Butch5]

 

 

I know that there are a lot of schools of thought concerning predestination.  But are all predestined to salvation?

 

I have my own personal views and beliefs concerning predestination so this thread (for me at least) is to gain futher knowledge and enlightenment into the subject of predestination through the discussion that might come about. 

Predestination simply means to determine before hand. God has predetermined that those who follow Christ will be saved. However, I don't see any thing in the Scriptures that teach all are predestined to salvation. That's not to say that all can't be saved, they can be.

 

God knows before we are born if we will be in the Lamb's Book of Life.

 

Knowing something and causing it are two different things.

[nChrist]

John 3:16-18 NASB  "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.  17  "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.  18  "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
 

2 Peter 3:9 NASB  The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
 

Jesus Christ died on the cross for the sins of the entire world, but many will reject him. Yes, we do have free will to accept or reject Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour. Try FOREKNOWLEDGE for a better understanding of predestination. God knew all before the foundation of the world, including the number of hairs on each person's head. God doesn't want anyone to die in their sins without Christ, but He won't force them to accept Salvation.

[Openly Curious]

My opinions are certainly different from anyone else’s that I have ever heard including those posted here.

 

I believe that the plan of God did not fail. Those who were planned to exist from the foundation of the world will be saved. Those whose existence comes into effect because of the fall still can be saved but in reality they will not because they actually belong to someone else.

 

Certainly I could be wrong but it is something to consider.

 

Here are some Scriptures.

 

Her conception is greatly multiplied,

 

Ge 3:16  Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

 

Even though Cain was of that wicked one God still tried to show him the way to life.

 

Ge 4:6  And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?

7  If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

 

1Jo 3:12  Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother’s righteous.

 

Also here is another example of God reaching out to those who will come up short,

 

Mt 23:37  O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

 

Joh 8:44  Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

 

 

 

 

Notice “from the foundation of the world”. And the reactions of those who were not: how they react in certain ways.

 

Eph 1:4  According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

 

Re 13:8  And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

 

Re 17:8  The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

 

 

God bless,

Tony

 

Hi Asper,  You are so correct in saying that the plan of God did not fail.  In fact the plan of God from before the foundation of the earth was laid is still very much in tact working to the good pleasure of the purpose of his will.   However I don't share in the view that everyone who has been born into this earth will be saved.  But I do believe that as you've shown in scripture very adequately that God has given mankind every opportunity to be saved from the fall of man.  But we have also been shown in scripture that the unrepentent (those who refused to turn back to God did not escaped the judgment of God when it came.  As their were consequences of choosing to follow the wicked one (Satan) instead refusing the salvation and plan of God.

[asper]

 

My opinions are certainly different from anyone else’s that I have ever heard including those posted here.

 

I believe that the plan of God did not fail. Those who were planned to exist from the foundation of the world will be saved. Those whose existence comes into effect because of the fall still can be saved but in reality they will not because they actually belong to someone else.

 

Certainly I could be wrong but it is something to consider.

 

Here are some Scriptures.

 

Her conception is greatly multiplied,

 

Ge 3:16  Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

 

Even though Cain was of that wicked one God still tried to show him the way to life.

 

Ge 4:6  And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?

7  If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

 

1Jo 3:12  Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother’s righteous.

 

Also here is another example of God reaching out to those who will come up short,

 

Mt 23:37  O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

 

Joh 8:44  Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

 

 

 

 

Notice “from the foundation of the world”. And the reactions of those who were not: how they react in certain ways.

 

Eph 1:4  According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

 

Re 13:8  And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

 

Re 17:8  The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

 

 

God bless,

Tony

 

Hi Asper,  You are so correct in saying that the plan of God did not fail.  In fact the plan of God from before the foundation of the earth was laid is still very much in tact working to the good pleasure of the purpose of his will.   However I don't share in the view that everyone who has been born into this earth will be saved.  But I do believe that as you've shown in scripture very adequately that God has given mankind every opportunity to be saved from the fall of man.  But we have also been shown in scripture that the unrepentent (those who refused to turn back to God did not escaped the judgment of God when it came.  As their were consequences of choosing to follow the wicked one (Satan) instead refusing the salvation and plan of God.

 

 

Hi openly curious,

 

I’m afraid that you may of misunderstood me.

 

You said,

Quote,

 

However I don't share in the view that everyone who has been born into this earth will be saved. 

 

Unquote.

 

Wheareas I said,

Quote,

“I believe that the plan of God did not fail. Those who were planned to exist from the foundation of the world will be saved. Those whose existence comes into effect because of the fall still can be saved but in reality they will not because they actually belong to someone else.”

Unquote.

 

But no mater it is a theory,

 

God bless,

Tony

[Butch5]

 

 

My opinions are certainly different from anyone else’s that I have ever heard including those posted here.

 

I believe that the plan of God did not fail. Those who were planned to exist from the foundation of the world will be saved. Those whose existence comes into effect because of the fall still can be saved but in reality they will not because they actually belong to someone else.

 

Certainly I could be wrong but it is something to consider.

 

Here are some Scriptures.

 

Her conception is greatly multiplied,

 

Ge 3:16  Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

 

Even though Cain was of that wicked one God still tried to show him the way to life.

 

Ge 4:6  And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?

7  If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

 

1Jo 3:12  Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother’s righteous.

 

Also here is another example of God reaching out to those who will come up short,

 

Mt 23:37  O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

 

Joh 8:44  Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

 

 

 

 

Notice “from the foundation of the world”. And the reactions of those who were not: how they react in certain ways.

 

Eph 1:4  According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

 

Re 13:8  And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

 

Re 17:8  The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

 

 

God bless,

Tony

 

Hi Asper,  You are so correct in saying that the plan of God did not fail.  In fact the plan of God from before the foundation of the earth was laid is still very much in tact working to the good pleasure of the purpose of his will.   However I don't share in the view that everyone who has been born into this earth will be saved.  But I do believe that as you've shown in scripture very adequately that God has given mankind every opportunity to be saved from the fall of man.  But we have also been shown in scripture that the unrepentent (those who refused to turn back to God did not escaped the judgment of God when it came.  As their were consequences of choosing to follow the wicked one (Satan) instead refusing the salvation and plan of God.

 

 

Hi openly curious,

 

I’m afraid that you may of misunderstood me.

 

You said,

Quote,

 

However I don't share in the view that everyone who has been born into this earth will be saved. 

 

Unquote.

 

Wheareas I said,

Quote,

“I believe that the plan of God did not fail. Those who were planned to exist from the foundation of the world will be saved. Those whose existence comes into effect because of the fall still can be saved but in reality they will not because they actually belong to someone else.”

Unquote.

 

But no mater it is a theory,

 

God bless,

Tony

 

Who werethose planned to exist from the foundation of the world?

[Openly Curious]

 

I know that there are a lot of schools of thought concerning predestination.  But are all predestined to salvation?

 

I have my own personal views and beliefs concerning predestination so this thread (for me at least) is to gain futher knowledge and enlightenment into the subject of predestination through the discussion that might come about. 

Predestination simply means to determine before hand. God has predetermined that those who follow Christ will be saved. However, I don't see any thing in the Scriptures that teach all are predestined to salvation. That's not to say that all can't be saved, they can be.

 

 

Hi Butch,  I agree God had a set plan before he even created the earth and gave man dominion over it.  God predetermined that the salvation of man would come through the sacrifice of his only begotton Son Jesus Christ in whom he sent into the world at the appointed time.  There is no other way, no other plan whereby men can be saved it's only through the work done on the cross through the death burial and resurrection of Christ that we have dominion and victory over sin.  All are included in God's predetermined plan of salvation but not all will accept the way of salvation that God has shown and given freely to man.  But there was a way predetermined in Christ for one to recieve salvation and escape the condemnation of God.   

[asper]

 

 

 

My opinions are certainly different from anyone else’s that I have ever heard including those posted here.

 

I believe that the plan of God did not fail. Those who were planned to exist from the foundation of the world will be saved. Those whose existence comes into effect because of the fall still can be saved but in reality they will not because they actually belong to someone else.

 

Certainly I could be wrong but it is something to consider.

 

Here are some Scriptures.

 

Her conception is greatly multiplied,

 

Ge 3:16  Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

 

Even though Cain was of that wicked one God still tried to show him the way to life.

 

Ge 4:6  And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?

7  If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

 

1Jo 3:12  Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother’s righteous.

 

Also here is another example of God reaching out to those who will come up short,

 

Mt 23:37  O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

 

Joh 8:44  Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

 

 

 

 

Notice “from the foundation of the world”. And the reactions of those who were not: how they react in certain ways.

 

Eph 1:4  According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

 

Re 13:8  And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

 

Re 17:8  The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

 

 

God bless,

Tony

 

Hi Asper,  You are so correct in saying that the plan of God did not fail.  In fact the plan of God from before the foundation of the earth was laid is still very much in tact working to the good pleasure of the purpose of his will.   However I don't share in the view that everyone who has been born into this earth will be saved.  But I do believe that as you've shown in scripture very adequately that God has given mankind every opportunity to be saved from the fall of man.  But we have also been shown in scripture that the unrepentent (those who refused to turn back to God did not escaped the judgment of God when it came.  As their were consequences of choosing to follow the wicked one (Satan) instead refusing the salvation and plan of God.

 

 

Hi openly curious,

 

I’m afraid that you may of misunderstood me.

 

You said,

Quote,

 

However I don't share in the view that everyone who has been born into this earth will be saved. 

 

Unquote.

 

Wheareas I said,

Quote,

“I believe that the plan of God did not fail. Those who were planned to exist from the foundation of the world will be saved. Those whose existence comes into effect because of the fall still can be saved but in reality they will not because they actually belong to someone else.”

Unquote.

 

But no mater it is a theory,

 

God bless,

Tony

 

Who werethose planned to exist from the foundation of the world?

 

Hi butch5,

 

The quick answer is the saints.

 

Eph 1:1  Paul <3972>, an apostle <652> of Jesus <2424> Christ <5547> by <1223> the will <2307> of God <2316>, to the saints <40> which are <5607> (5752) at <1722> Ephesus <2181>, and <2532> to the faithful <4103> in <1722> Christ <5547> Jesus <2424>:

 

40. αγιος hagios hag’-ee-os; from αγος hagos (an awful thing) [compare 53, 2282]; sacred (physically, pure, morally blameless or religious, ceremonially, consecrated): — 

 

Or those chosen,

 

1Co 1:27  But <235> God <2316> hath chosen <1586> (5668) the foolish things <3474> of the world <2889> to <2443> confound <2617> (5725) the wise <4680>; and <2532> God <2316> hath chosen <1586> (5668) the weak things <772> of the world <2889> to <2443> confound <2617> (5725) the things which are mighty <2478>;

 

1586. εκλεγομαι eklegomai ek-leg’-om-ahee; middle voice from 1537 and 3004 (in its primary sense); to select: — 

 

Or you could look at it this way, (the action or reaction that actually saves)

 

Ro 10:8  But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

9  That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10  For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

11  For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

12 ¶  For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

13  For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

 

 

So the question I have for you is do you believe it is an action or a reaction that causes us to believe and call upon the Lord Jesus Christ?

 

Do we believe in our hearts because God causes it or is it something we do ourselves?

 

1Jo 4:19  We love him, because he first loved us.

 

 

God bless,

Tony

[Openly Curious]

 

 

My opinions are certainly different from anyone else’s that I have ever heard including those posted here.

 

I believe that the plan of God did not fail. Those who were planned to exist from the foundation of the world will be saved. Those whose existence comes into effect because of the fall still can be saved but in reality they will not because they actually belong to someone else.

 

Certainly I could be wrong but it is something to consider.

 

Here are some Scriptures.

 

Her conception is greatly multiplied,

 

Ge 3:16  Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

 

Even though Cain was of that wicked one God still tried to show him the way to life.

 

Ge 4:6  And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?

7  If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

 

1Jo 3:12  Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother’s righteous.

 

Also here is another example of God reaching out to those who will come up short,

 

Mt 23:37  O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

 

Joh 8:44  Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

 

 

 

 

Notice “from the foundation of the world”. And the reactions of those who were not: how they react in certain ways.

 

Eph 1:4  According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

 

Re 13:8  And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

 

Re 17:8  The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

 

 

God bless,

Tony

 

Hi Asper,  You are so correct in saying that the plan of God did not fail.  In fact the plan of God from before the foundation of the earth was laid is still very much in tact working to the good pleasure of the purpose of his will.   However I don't share in the view that everyone who has been born into this earth will be saved.  But I do believe that as you've shown in scripture very adequately that God has given mankind every opportunity to be saved from the fall of man.  But we have also been shown in scripture that the unrepentent (those who refused to turn back to God did not escaped the judgment of God when it came.  As their were consequences of choosing to follow the wicked one (Satan) instead refusing the salvation and plan of God.

 

 

Hi openly curious,

 

I’m afraid that you may of misunderstood me.

 

You said,

Quote,

 

However I don't share in the view that everyone who has been born into this earth will be saved. 

 

Unquote.

 

Wheareas I said,

Quote,

“I believe that the plan of God did not fail. Those who were planned to exist from the foundation of the world will be saved. Those whose existence comes into effect because of the fall still can be saved but in reality they will not because they actually belong to someone else.”

Unquote.

 

But no mater it is a theory,

 

God bless,

Tony

 

 

Sorry if I've misunderstood I can't help but to ask if you consider yourself doomed?  Because everyone on the earth right now is part of fallen humanity.   

[Openly Curious]

 

 

 

are you really saying that God created a number of people specifically to  burn in hell forever?

Yes.  Judas Iscariot for one. 

 

 

I have a question for you Butero.  Do you believe that God forenew Judas Iscariot?

 

Absolutely.  He created him to be the betrayer of his son.  He "foreknew" exactly what he would do.  He was created for that purpose.

 

 

The reason I asked this question Butero is because the scripture plainly states in....

 

Romans 8:29 - For whom he did "foreknow" he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

 

If God did foreknow Judas Iscariot then Judas was predestined to be changed he was predestined to be saved through the power of Jesus Christ redemptive work.   Now I am not going to judge whether or not Judas was forgiven for his betrayal of Jesus or of his suicide.  But I do know scripture says for whom God did "foreknow" (and God foreknowed all of us before we were fearfully and wonderfully made in our mother's womb).   If God did not foreknow us then we wouldn't exist and our salvation would not have been predetermined to come through Jesus Christ before God even created the earth.  Scripture states this in....

 

Ephesians 1:4-14 - According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:   having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.  To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.  In whom we have redemption through his blood, the foregiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace....

 

This scripture states that God has chosen us (male, female, Jew, or Gentile) in Christ before the earth was even created yet.  God foreknew us before the earth was made and he chose us even before our existance in the earth in every age every generation Christ is door to the sheepfoldto have cleansing from our sins and forgiveness of sin.   God's predetermined will before creation was that all would be made a new creature in Christ to be conformed to his image having our sins and tresspasses washed away by the blood of Jesus receiving redemption and acceptance of God as his children.    

[Openly Curious]

 

 

The simplest way I can explain it is that whoever you are is the person you were created to be, whether that person is good or evil.  If you were created to be saved, you will be saved, and if you were created to be lost, you will be lost.  Nothing happens by accident, and nobody is really saved by their own decision.  If you made the decision to accept Christ, it is only because he pre-destined that you would accept Christ.  It is because the Father decided to reveal Jesus to you.  If you rejected Christ, it is because the Father chose not to open your eyes to where you would have the faith or desire to get saved. 

 

Hi Butero,  I want to say upfront that I do not believe that God created certain people to be good and created others to be evil.  That to me is obviously seen in the scriptures "before" the fall in the garden.  It wasn't until their eyes were opened that the heart of man was darkened.  It was after the fall when you begin to see evil growing and abounding in the earth more and more.  An example of my point is found in...(Genesis 6:5-7 - And God saw that the wickedness of man was great, in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.  And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.  And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repented me that I have made them).    Man began to be shapen in inquity (sin) after the fall not before.  And there are not some born to be good and some to be evil all were born into sin guilty before God.

 

I'm not really sure what you mean when you say that "not everyone is saved by their own decision"  because when in distress I have to call on the Lord or he will not hear me.  Perhaps I mis-reading here but there is an "act" of faith on the part of individuals when it comes to God as well as an "act of will" in regards to one's salvation.  I'll leave it at that for right now thanks for your reply.     

 

It is my belief that it was the plan of God from the beginning that Adam and Eve would give in to the temptation, and eat of the forbidden fruit.  I believe God knew what they would do before he fashioned them.  They made the choice, but God created them knowing what choice they would make.  Yes, you may have called on the Lord in a time of distress, but the only reason you had the desire and faith to do so is because the Father revealed Jesus to you.  In that way, you only made that decision because God created and pre-destinated that you would make that choice. 

 

 

 

Do you think that God foreknew Adam and Eve and predestined them and if so how?  If you don't mind me asking.