Where is the true Law of God?

[Porque77]

Love, Agape Love.

 

That's all.

 

It is a command, not a request.

 

Get that right and all else pales.

 

I agree with you, friend fez. Love is the greatest. And love is the law of God.

What happens is that many men call "God's law" to the laws of death and slavery of the Old Testament that do not keep the law of love. I think that's the confusion of many. The Gospel is the one which teaches us the true commandments of God.

[FreeinChrist]

IMO it is not so much the law of God as the plan of God.   What I mean is some might say that the New Covenant is the Renew Promise or even Renew Covenant. 

16)  Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made.  He saith not, And to seeds, as of many: but as of One.  And to thy Seed which is Christ.

17)  And this I say, that the Covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

Galatians 3:16-17

So does this mean that God has two different laws no, but two covenants. We learn that the Law of Moses was a schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ that we might be justified by faith, Galatians 3:24.  But we see that God has always commanded His people to love Him and their neighbours  (Leviticus 19:18; Deuteronomy 6:4-5; Matthew 22:37-40).

We also see that in Christ Jesus this Law of Love is also call the Law of Liberty, James 1:25; 2:8-13; Galatians 5:13-14. 

[Guest Butero]

 

 

Jesus spoke of the law too.  He said that he didn't come to destroy the law, but to fulfill it. 

 

 

Hello, Butero.

 

Jesus did not say that the entire Old Testament law is still in force . I do not see it in the Gospel. What he said is that He did not come to abolish the Law and the Prophets. But what law is this ? ...

As I understand the law and the prophets what Jesus Christ referred to, is not the laws of the Old Testament that command : "eye for eye , tooth for tooth " ; burning to daughters who's were not virgins at marriage; be stoned to death disobedient children , women accused of adultery , men collecting firewood Sabbath; precepts that sent to war and kill men , women and children of the conquered peoples ... etc. 

 

With respect, I believe that these laws were abolished by Jesus Christ himself , and now no longer apply , as we see in Matthew 5:21-48 , John 8:1-13 and other parts of the Gospel. So which is the Law that Jesus Christ came not to abolish ? 

I think the law that Jesus did not come to abolish is the Law which He Himself taught in the Gospel , because Jesus Christ tells us that the Law and the prophets is this:

"All things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you , do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets." ( Matthew 7:12 )

 

Therefore, I believe that this is the law that God gave Moses, because Jesus himself says that " this is the law and the prophets." So, I think this is the law that remains in effect, that Jesus Christ came not to abolish ( "Think not that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets " ) . 

And this law is the law which not passed " not one jot or tittle ", of the Law that Jesus Christ teaches us in the Gospel. So I think that this is the Law that God had given to Moses in the beginning.

I see that the Law of the Gospel is very different from the Old Testament commandments mandating that men hurt and kill other men. I see that these commandments are contrary to the law of the Gospel, are not the law and the prophets whom Jesus was referring .

 

So what you find is that in the scriptures there are two different laws :

- One is the law of the Old Testament ...

- And the other is the Law as taught by Jesus Christ.

The first law was a law very hard, and the second is merciful .

 

Some say, that the two laws were two different laws for two different times, but the problem that comes to me and what I like to clarify is that the prophets tell us that the law is and forever :

" Faithful are all His commandments , They stand fast for ever and ever , done in truth and uprightness. Sent redemption to his people, for ever he has commanded his covenant " (Psalm 111.7-9 )

 

" From your decrees I have known for some time that has established forever " (Psalm 119 ( 118 ) , 152) .

If God said his commandments are forever , how is that in the scriptures there are two different laws ? This is my preocuación . I await your answers.

 

That is interesting, and I don't completely disagree with everything you said.  You mentioned that Jesus didn't say we should continue in stoning adulterers or killing witches, etc.  That is because those are not so much laws as penalties for violating laws.  The supreme law in Israel was based on the law of Moses.  As such, to enforce these laws, you had to have penalties.  We are not required to continue to have the same penalties, but the sins are still sins.  It is still a sin to commit adultery or witchcraft, but the penalties will be handed out at the final judgement in heaven.  The law was not done away with.  Individual nations just determine how to handle them? 

[Porque77]

17)  And this I say, that the Covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul

 

 

I think your interpretation is wrong, for the true Covenant of God are Christ's commandments, commandments which abolished the Old Testament law.  The Lord gave his life to teach us the true Law of God.

 

So does this mean that God has two different laws no, but two covenants. 

 

 

God don't give different laws in each period. The Law of God is from everlasting to everlasting:

 

" Faithful are all His commandments , They stand fast for ever and ever , done in truth and uprightness. Sent redemption to his people, for ever he has commanded his covenant " (Psalm 111.7-9 )

 

" From your decrees I have known for some time that has established forever " (Psalm 119 ( 118 ) , 152) .

 

The true law of God was changed by scribes. For this, Jesus Christ, who is God, became man and came to teach again the true Law of God.

 

 

We learn that the Law of Moses was a schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ

 

 

The real Law given to Moses was a schoolmaster. But the Old Testament Law changed by scribes (Jeremiah 8:7-8), already wasn't the schoolmaster. That is why Jesus came:  He came to teach the true Law of God (the real ayo)

 

We also see that in Christ Jesus this Law of Love is also call the Law of Liberty

 

 

 

The Law of Love preached by Jesus Christ abolished the commandments of death and slavery contained in the Old Testament because these commandments were not God's law.

[Porque77]

 

 

Hello, Butero.

 

Jesus did not say that the entire Old Testament law is still in force . I do not see it in the Gospel. What he said is that He did not come to abolish the Law and the Prophets. But what law is this ? ...

As I understand the law and the prophets what Jesus Christ referred to, is not the laws of the Old Testament that command : "eye for eye , tooth for tooth " ; burning to daughters who's were not virgins at marriage; be stoned to death disobedient children , women accused of adultery , men collecting firewood Sabbath; precepts that sent to war and kill men , women and children of the conquered peoples ... etc. 

 

With respect, I believe that these laws were abolished by Jesus Christ himself , and now no longer apply , as we see in Matthew 5:21-48 , John 8:1-13 and other parts of the Gospel. So which is the Law that Jesus Christ came not to abolish ? 

I think the law that Jesus did not come to abolish is the Law which He Himself taught in the Gospel , because Jesus Christ tells us that the Law and the prophets is this:

"All things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you , do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets." ( Matthew 7:12 )

 

Therefore, I believe that this is the law that God gave Moses, because Jesus himself says that " this is the law and the prophets." So, I think this is the law that remains in effect, that Jesus Christ came not to abolish ( "Think not that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets " ) . 

And this law is the law which not passed " not one jot or tittle ", of the Law that Jesus Christ teaches us in the Gospel. So I think that this is the Law that God had given to Moses in the beginning.

I see that the Law of the Gospel is very different from the Old Testament commandments mandating that men hurt and kill other men. I see that these commandments are contrary to the law of the Gospel, are not the law and the prophets whom Jesus was referring .

 

So what you find is that in the scriptures there are two different laws :

- One is the law of the Old Testament ...

- And the other is the Law as taught by Jesus Christ.

The first law was a law very hard, and the second is merciful .

 

Some say, that the two laws were two different laws for two different times, but the problem that comes to me and what I like to clarify is that the prophets tell us that the law is and forever :

" Faithful are all His commandments , They stand fast for ever and ever , done in truth and uprightness. Sent redemption to his people, for ever he has commanded his covenant " (Psalm 111.7-9 )

 

" From your decrees I have known for some time that has established forever " (Psalm 119 ( 118 ) , 152) .

If God said his commandments are forever , how is that in the scriptures there are two different laws ? This is my preocuación . I await your answers.

 

That is interesting, and I don't completely disagree with everything you said.  You mentioned that Jesus didn't say we should continue in stoning adulterers......

 

Not only did not say those things but also abolished those laws because they were not God's laws. The true law of God is mercy and forgiveness.

The precepts of the Old Testament that commanded these things, were abolished by Jesus Christ because they were only human regulations. In Matthew 5:21-48 and elsewhere in the Gospel, Jesus Christ abolished the commandments of the Old Testament that commanded kill people.

Jesus Christ teaches us that what God wants is mercy and forgiveness:

 

What God wants is mercy:

"... If you had known what this means: I desire mercy and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless" (Matthew 12:7)

Jesus commanded to forgive seventy times seven:

"Then Peter came and said: Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Till seven? Jesus said: I tell you, not seven times, but seventy times seven." (Matthew 18 :21-22)

 

Mercy and forgiveness is the true teaching of God's Law.

[Qnts2]

 

So, do you believe that God did not give the Mosaic covenant and law?

 

 

Hello, Qnts2.  The Mosaic covenant and law were given by God, but after the years and centuries, the prophets tell us that the scribes changed the law of God. So tell us the prophets:

 

"Woe to those who give wicked laws and scribes who write tyrannical prescriptions to set aside the poor and violate the rights of the underdog of my people, to rob widows and orphans" (Isaiah 10.1 -2)

"And the land is defiled under its inhabitants, because they have transgressed the laws, changed the commandments, broken the everlasting covenant" (Isaiah 24:5-6).

"He says, therefore, the Lord : Because this people draw near me with their mouth, and honor me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me, and their fear of me is a commandment of men which have been taught" (Isaiah 29.13).

And Jesus Christ, remembering the words of the prophet Isaiah, also told the scribes and Pharisees who were teaching the commandments of men :

"Hypocrites, well did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying,

This people honors me with their lips;

But their heart is far from me.

But in vain they do worship me,

Teaching for doctrines commandments of men" (Matthew 15.7-9

 

Dear friend, this is what I think happened, what the prophets tell us: that God's law was changed by the scribes. This is for what the Old Testament Law is direrente to the commandments of Jesus Christ.

 

 

So, let me get this so that I am sure of what you are saying.

 

Are you saying that the scribes changed the OT scripture? So what we have today is corrupted by the scribes?

[Porque77]

So, let me get this so that I am sure of what you are saying.

 

Are you saying that the scribes changed the OT scripture? So what we have today is corrupted by the scribes?

 

 

My friend Qnts2, I am saying only what Prophets and Jesus Christ said.  The prophets tell us that the scribes changed the law of God. So tell us the prophets:

 

" ... My people know not the judgment of Yahweh. How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us ? Certainly has changed into a lie the lying pen of the scribes" (Jeremiah 8:7-9) .

 

"Woe to those who give wicked laws and scribes who write tyrannical prescriptions to set aside the poor and violate the rights of the underdog of my people, to rob widows and orphans" (Isaiah 10.1 -2)

"And the land is defiled under its inhabitants, because they have transgressed the laws, changed the commandments, broken the everlasting covenant" (Isaiah 24:5-6).

"He says, therefore, the Lord : Because this people draw near me with their mouth, and honor me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me, and their fear of me is a commandment of men which have been taught" (Isaiah 29.13).

And Jesus Christ, remembering the words of the prophet Isaiah, also told the scribes and Pharisees who were teaching the commandments of men :

"Hypocrites, well did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying,

This people honors me with their lips;

But their heart is far from me.

But in vain they do worship me,

Teaching for doctrines commandments of men" (Matthew 15.7-9

 

Dear friend, this is what I think happened, what the prophets tell us: that God's Law was changed by the scribes. This is for what the Old Testament Law is direrente to the commandments of Jesus Christ.

 

In the following answer I will remember to you several old testament laws abolished by Jesus Christ.

Edited October 7, 2013 by Porque77

[Porque77]

Jesus abolished many commandments of the Old Testament because they were not God's law. The Gospel says :

"It was also said, 'Whoever divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce . Nevertheless I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for the cause of prostitution , makes her commit adultery , and whoever marries a divorced , commits adultery" (Matthew 5 : ...)

 

The jews of that time wrote in the law of the Old Testament that could separated from women for many reasons when they tired of them, but Jesus abolished these commandments . These commandments were written into the Old Testament and Jesus Christ abolished them.

 

"Again you have heard that it was said by them of old not swear falsely, but shall perform your oaths to the Lord. Nevertheless I tell you, Do not swear at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, or by the earth, for is the footstool of his feet, or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because you can not do a single white or black hair. But let your ' Yes, yes, no, no, because what is more than these cometh of evil" (Matthew 5: ...)

The Jews were accustomed to swear in many cases , and so wrote it in the laws of the Old Testament ... The Lord abolished these precepts of the oaths.

 

The law of retaliation ("Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth") ABOLISHED BY JESUS CHRIST

"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also, and whosoever want to get to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your coat also, and whosoever shall compel thee to go one mile, go with him twain. Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away"  (Matthew 5: ...)

The Jews were in the habit of applying the talionis law (law of revenge) in their judgments (eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn ... and so on.), And so they wrote it in the laws of the old Testament (Exodus 21:24-25). The Lord abolished this law of "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth" because it was a law that did not included forgiveness or mercy.

 

"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you .... "  (Matthew 5 ...)

The Jews, often beheaded or hanged his enemies, and not only to them, but then, as says the laws of the Old Testament, entered the conquered peoples and in many cases children and women were slaughtered... Jesus Christ abolished these Old Testament laws and commands us to love our enemies.

 

Other Old Testament laws abolished by Jesus Christ:

"If a man commits adultery with his neighbor's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be dead".  (Leviticus 20:10)

"And the daughter of any priest, if she fornicate, dishonor his father; she shall be burnt with fire" (Leviticus 21:9

 

That Is not what Jesus did with the adulterous woman in the Gospel Example:

 

"And the scribes and the Pharisees bring a woman taken in adultery; and having set her in the midst, they say unto him, Teacher, this woman hath been taken in adultery, in the very act. Now in the law Moses commanded us to stone such: what then sayest thou of her?  And this they said, trying him, that they might have whereof to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground.

 

But when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.  And again he stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground.  And they, when they heard it, went out one by one, beginning from the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman, where she was, in the midst.  And Jesus lifted up himself, and said unto her, Woman, where are they? did no man condemn thee?  And she said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said, Neither do I condemn thee: go thy way; from henceforth sin no more.  Again therefore Jesus spake unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in the darkness, but shall have the light of life".  (Juan 8:3-12)

 

With this teaching, Jesus abolished the Old Testament commandments that ordered kill people for various reasons. So far we have collected some examples of Old Testament commandments that Jesus abolished, but the argument that Jesus had with the Jews because of the law, is much broader and at this discussion is devoted a large part of the Gospel. Jesus taught us the true law of God.

Quotes from the scriptures that tell us that God's law was changed and that Jesus Christ abolished many laws of the Old Testament and taught us the true law and true commandments of God: Isaiah 29:13, Jeremiah 8:7-8, Matthew 15 :7-9, Matthew 5:21-48, Matthew 7:12, Matthew 12:7, Matthew 19:16-22, Matthew 22:34-40, John 5:16-18, John 8: 1-11; Acts 15, Galatians 5, Hebrews 7 and 8.

Edited October 7, 2013 by Porque77

[kwikphilly]

Blessings to you porque

    And welcome to Worthy....So many of these Scriptures are being taken out of context,there where judges and kings in the ancient times and many of these laws were for them to have guidelines to go by for the welfare of the people as a whole,not for individuals to go killing one another ....it makes a great deal of difference in what we are reading not just to pull a written law out of nowhere and apply it to anyone(if you know what I am saying)....God is the same ,never changing ....He was always the Good,Merciful,Loving Father of the NT as He was in the OT....His laws were in place for all the reasons the others have posted and Jesus freed us from living under the law by fulfilling it.....He only made it better,not did away with it....some still choose to live by the law by not accepting Christ and will be judged accordingly...

     We must always take great care in reading everything in context and for what it pertains to and who is being addressed....I think reading Hebrews may help clarify alot that is being discussed as they kept slipping back into the law after having come to Christ ...

    Please,I just was hoping to add something to the conversation and am not looking to debate,there has been too much of that on other threads and that is not what I wish to see here......I value each & everyones opinions & input...God bless you all

                                                                                                    With love,in Christ-Kwik

[Porque77]

Blessings to you porque

 ............God is the same ,never changing ....He was always the Good,Merciful,Loving Father of the NT as He was in the OT....His laws were in place for all the reasons the others have posted and Jesus freed us from living under the law by fulfilling it.....He only made it better,not did away with it....some still choose to live by the law by not accepting Christ and will be judged accordingly...........

Hello, my friend kwikphilly.  God is the same , He don't changes. The true law of God is always the same , no changes. And the true Law of God given from the beginning and does not change is the law that Jesus Christ teaches us in the Gospel.

Everything what is different in the Old Testament , Jesus Christ abolished , as we see in Matthew 5:21-48 and elsewhere in the Gospel.

The Jews in times of Jesus Christ don't lived the true law of God , because the Old Testament law no longer kept the true Law of God. The death sentences and slavery imposed by Jews, laws that God had not commanded, were abolished by Jesus Christ.

Jesus came to teach the true law of God , but many Jews did not respected the teaching of Jesus Christ, and then persecuted Jesus.

Christians are under the Law, and have Law, and the law they have is the Law that Jesus teaches us in the Gospel (Matthew 7:12).