The Book of Revelation/Past or Future

[SDAinFLA]

repentance is part of the process of our sanctification, and has no bearing on the removal of our sins.

 

While I respect your position, but I disagree. Repentance is part of the removal of our sin. The Bible is clear on this. Acts 2:38 says - "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

 

Also, the Bible says - "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord." Acts 3:19

 

Revelation 14 is obviously describing Post 2nd Coming

Obvious? I'm not so sure. The messages of the 3 angels of Revelation 14 is a message for today. The everlasting gospel no longer needs to be preached to a world of people at the second coming. They're fates are already sealed.

 

Also, later on in that chapter it says - "And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them." Revelation 14:13...this is not language that tells me that the world has ended and Christ has returned, these are message for the last days.

The Bible says - "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." Matthew 24:14. If your interpretation of Revelation 14 is correct, it sounds like the end comes, and then the gospel is preached.

 

 

there is no judgement in the heavenly sanctuary because my and your judgement was finished at the Cross

If there is no judgement in the heavenly sanctuary, then what is happening in Daniels vision? "I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire. A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened." Daniel 7:9-10

[BlessedByTheBest]

 

repentance is part of the process of our sanctification, and has no bearing on the removal of our sins.

 

While I respect your position, but I disagree. Repentance is part of the removal of our sin. The Bible is clear on this. Acts 2:38 says - "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

 

Also, the Bible says - "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord." Acts 3:19

 

 

the verses you quote refer to an initial conversion of the Jews who crucified their Messiah.

this repentance is of one whose spirit has not yet been vivified through the new birth, not the born-again new creature in which all things have become new.

 

 

Revelation 14 is obviously describing Post 2nd Coming

Obvious? I'm not so sure. The messages of the 3 angels of Revelation 14 is a message for today. The everlasting gospel no longer needs to be preached to a world of people at the second coming. They're fates are already sealed.

 

Also, later on in that chapter it says - "And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them." Revelation 14:13...this is not language that tells me that the world has ended and Christ has returned, these are message for the last days.

The Bible says - "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." Matthew 24:14. If your interpretation of Revelation 14 is correct, it sounds like the end comes, and then the gospel is preached.

 

 

typo. i repeated your misquote of my statement.  this is what i originally stated which you misquoted and i copied.

 

"six verses prior to this(Rev 14:1), we clearly see the Lamb of God and His Bride after the 1st resurrection"

 

 

there is no judgement in the heavenly sanctuary because my and your judgement was finished at the Cross

If there is no judgement in the heavenly sanctuary, then what is happening in Daniels vision? "I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire. A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened." Daniel 7:9-10

 

 

looks like the angels ready to execute God's judgements....  on the wicked, not the righteous:  

Dan 7:11  I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. 

 

but our sins have been placed upon Jesus Christ.  we have already been judged and acquitted, because the moment you believed on Christ you crossed over from death to life.

John 5:24  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

[Hall7]

If I told you that the Bible speaks in the present and time is non-existent would you believe me? Hard to get our minds around that one...

[kwikphilly]

Blessings Brother Hall,

      I do understand what you are saying because it is the Word of God and God is not bound by space or time,that is why I do believe that for our sakes Revelation speaks of past ,present & future events & as some often ask...why did they say the day approaching is near, because to our Lord one day is like a thousand to us...yes,my Brother-it is very difficult to wrap our mortal,limited minds around indeed!Praise & Glory to God.....

                                                                                       With love,in Christ-Kwik

[SDAinFLA]

 

the verses you quote refer to an initial conversion of the Jews who crucified their Messiah.

this repentance is of one whose spirit has not yet been vivified through the new birth, not the born-again new creature in which all things have become new.

Yea....I don't think God has two methods for the forgiveness of sin. So if repentance is only for the Jews, then what was Christ talking about here?

"And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem." Luke 24:47

 

 

 

typo. i repeated your misquote of my statement.  this is what i originally stated which you misquoted and i copied.

Huh? I'm not sure what you are talking about. I copied the statement from your 3:40 pm post on yesterday. Here it is in it's full:

"i am aware that the book isn't entirely chronological.  but yes, Revelation 14 is obviously describing Post 2nd Coming."

 

I understand that verses 1-5 are talking about the people of God post second coming, but verses 6 says an angel comes to preach the everlasting gospel. Why is the gospel being preached after the second coming?

Again, the gospel is for these days, not post second coming...this is the judgment that is happening right now.

 

 

 

looks like the angels ready to execute God's judgements....   on the wicked, not the righteous: Dan 7:11  I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

But the very next scripture says - As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time. Dan 7:12

If this is the executive judgment, why are the beasts lives prolonged for a season?

 

Now, if Christ was our sacrifice (which I believe). Why is he now called our high priest? "Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast ourprofession."  Hebrews 4:14

 

Does the High Priest not serve a role in the sanctuary service? Obviously Christ is the sacrifice and the High Priest. But if you claim that Christ is not performing any duties in heaven...why is called the High Priest still? This is not an empty title.

 

We see in the Old Testament Sanctuary that AFTER the sacrifice, the High Priest went into the sanctuary with blood.

"Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God. But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:" Hebrews 9:6-7

 

But the Bible says this entrance into the sanctuary was not the real entrance...it was only a model of the true heavenly High Priest entering the sanctuary

The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not YET made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: Hebrews 9:8

 

So then did Christ enter the sanctuary just like the High Priest in the earthly did? Yes

"Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us."  Hebrews 912

 

Now, there was a cleansing of the Old Testament Sanctuary

"And he shall sprinkle of the blood upon it with his finger seven times, and cleanse it, and hallow it from the uncleanness of the children of Israel." Lev 16:19

 

Well, then if the Old Testament Sanctuary was cleansed in the typical service, then what about the anti typical?

"It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these." Hebrews 9:23

 

Why would it be necessary that heavenly things are purified? This is the work of the High Priest.

[Guest Ghoulia]

Good point. Never thought of that

[BlessedByTheBest]

 

 

the verses you quote refer to an initial conversion of the Jews who crucified their Messiah.

this repentance is of one whose spirit has not yet been vivified through the new birth, not the born-again new creature in which all things have become new.

Yea....I don't think God has two methods for the forgiveness of sin. So if repentance is only for the Jews, then what was Christ talking about here?

"And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem." Luke 24:47

 

 

neither do i.  but my point is that the payment for transgressions of the law is only made once.  would you agree that he who is born again is dead to sin?

 

Heb 6:4  For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 

Heb 6:5  And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 

Heb 6:6  If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. 

 

 

typo. i repeated your misquote of my statement.  this is what i originally stated which you misquoted and i copied.

Huh? I'm not sure what you are talking about. I copied the statement from your 3:40 pm post on yesterday. Here it is in it's full:

"i am aware that the book isn't entirely chronological.  but yes, Revelation 14 is obviously describing Post 2nd Coming."

 

I understand that verses 1-5 are talking about the people of God post second coming, but verses 6 says an angel comes to preach the everlasting gospel. Why is the gospel being preached after the second coming?

Again, the gospel is for these days, not post second coming...this is the judgment that is happening right now.

 

 

i suppose you missed it.... so i'll show you the post again.  please read carefully so this discussion is fruitful.

i did not say post 2nd coming.  

 

please understand i am not post-trib, so perhaps this is the source of the confusion.

when i say post-1st resurrection, i mean the catching up of the saints prior to the trumpet plagues.

 

 

looks like the angels ready to execute God's judgements....   on the wicked, not the righteous: Dan 7:11  I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

1) But the very next scripture says - As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time. Dan 7:12

If this is the executive judgment, why are the beasts lives prolonged for a season?

 

2) Now, if Christ was our sacrifice (which I believe). Why is he now called our high priest? "Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast ourprofession."  Hebrews 4:14

 

Does the High Priest not serve a role in the sanctuary service? Obviously Christ is the sacrifice and the High Priest. But if you claim that Christ is not performing any duties in heaven...why is called the High Priest still? This is not an empty title.

 

We see in the Old Testament Sanctuary that AFTER the sacrifice, the High Priest went into the sanctuary with blood.

"Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God. But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:" Hebrews 9:6-7

 

But the Bible says this entrance into the sanctuary was not the real entrance...it was only a model of the true heavenly High Priest entering the sanctuary

The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not YET made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: Hebrews 9:8

 

So then did Christ enter the sanctuary just like the High Priest in the earthly did? Yes

"Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us."  Hebrews 912

 

Now, there was a cleansing of the Old Testament Sanctuary

"And he shall sprinkle of the blood upon it with his finger seven times, and cleanse it, and hallow it from the uncleanness of the children of Israel." Lev 16:19

 

Well, then if the Old Testament Sanctuary was cleansed in the typical service, then what about the anti typical?

"It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these." Hebrews 9:23

 

Why would it be necessary that heavenly things are purified? This is the work of the High Priest.

 

 

 

1) i believe verse 12 refers to satan losing his authority and being locked away in the Abyss, just as the beast and false prophet are cast into fire (Rev. 19)

 

2) yes, Christ is the slain Lamb which intercedes for the saints. thanks for your insights, but i am still waiting for you to support the claim that there is judgement involved in His duties.

[SDAinFLA]

I'll be riding on a train for the next few hours so I don't have much ability to to research for a few days...but you can provide me with some reading material by answering a few questions:

Om instead of posting me a link to what you said i misquoted you (which I am not finding)...do you think you can just re-post your understanding of Rev 14? I'm not trying to be funny but it makes more sense to just tellme what you said and not make me search for it.

Please put what I misquoted and then what the correct statement is so I can figure out where I messed up.

2. Ok so answer these questions pls:

1. Was the earthly santuary a model of the heavenly sanctuary?

2. Is Jesus a high Priest today?

3. What did the High Priest do after the sacrifice during the earthly sanctuary service?

4. What duty (if any) does Jesus role as our High Priest means he is performing?

[other one]

If I told you that the Bible speaks in the present and time is non-existent would you believe me? Hard to get our minds around that one...

 

 

Simple concept once you get a grasp on "M" string physics

[BlessedByTheBest]

I'll be riding on a train for the next few hours so I don't have much ability to to research for a few days...but you can provide me with some reading material by answering a few questions:

Om instead of posting me a link to what you said i misquoted you (which I am not finding)...do you think you can just re-post your understanding of Rev 14? I'm not trying to be funny but it makes more sense to just tellme what you said and not make me search for it.

Please put what I misquoted and then what the correct statement is so I can figure out where I messed up.

2. Ok so answer these questions pls:

1. Was the earthly santuary a model of the heavenly sanctuary?

2. Is Jesus a high Priest today?

3. What did the High Priest do after the sacrifice during the earthly sanctuary service?

4. What duty (if any) does Jesus role as our High Priest means he is performing?

 

i would just like to apologize to the OP for slightly hijacking this topic..some of what we speak of is still pertinent though.

 

but sure.  in Rev 14 i see a collective vision of celebration where Christ is united with the 144,000 Jews taken from the earth shortly after the implementation of the mark of the beast.

Dan 12:11  And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. 

Dan 12:12  Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. 

 

it also testifies of the coming destruction of Babylon, and God's wrath which is to come upon those who have taken the mark and worshiped the beast.(bowl judgements)

---------

 

1)  no. to say it was a literal model of the heavenly sanctuary is extra-biblical.  besides, our minds can't possibly grasp heavenly things.

 

the sanctuary is, among many things, a conceptual aid that demonstrates God's immutable love/plan of salvation for sinners.

any attempt to magnify the bare shadows of the substance which culminated at the Cross, detracts from the meaning and purpose of their institution.  but most importantly, it attempts to discount the Finished work of Jesus Christ.

 

 

2)  of course.  Psalm 110:4  The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.   (Not the Aaronic order)

 

3)  which brings us to your 3rd question.  the High Priest (of the Aaronic order) would of necessity perform various works in order to free the people and the sanctuary from sin.  we need not get into the details.

 

4)  and so being that Christ is a High Priest after the order of Melchizedek, i can assure you he isn't cleansing the "heavenly sanctuary" because therein is no sin.  that is inadvertent blasphemy.

confessed sin defiles nothing.  please show me in scripture where the confession of sins defiled the earthly sanctuary, as opposed to the actual sinning.

 

Jesus Christ's once and for all atonement for sins consummates all duties of His Priestly ministry perpetually.  He is forever interceding for the saints.

 

read all of this, prayerfully:

 

Heb 7:11  If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

Heb 7:12  For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

Heb 7:13  For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.

Heb 7:14  For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

Heb 7:15  And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest, 

Heb 7:16  Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.

 

Heb 7:17  For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

Heb 7:18  For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. 

Heb 7:19  For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

 

Heb 7:20  And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest: 

Heb 7:21  (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec:) 

Heb 7:22  By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

Heb 7:23  And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:

 

Heb 7:24  But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.

Heb 7:25  Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Heb 7:26  For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; 

 

Heb 7:27  Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.

Heb 7:28  For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.

-----------------

 

Heb 9:24  For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: 

Heb 9:25  Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; 

Heb 9:26  For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Heb 9:27  And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Heb 9:28  So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

----------------

 

Heb 10:1  For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

Heb 10:2  For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

 

Heb 10:3  But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. 

Heb 10:4  For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

Heb 10:5  Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: 

Heb 10:6  In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. 

 

Heb 10:7  Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. 

Heb 10:8  Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; 

Heb 10:9  Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

Heb 10:10  By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

 

Heb 10:11  And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

Heb 10:12  But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 

Heb 10:13  From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

 

Heb 10:14  For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Heb 10:15  Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, 

Heb 10:16  This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; 

Heb 10:17  And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Heb 10:18  Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.