Why My Generation Stopped Going To Church

[Guest Butero]

 

 

Butero you have hurt nebula's feelings..you say you want to correct that ...you haven't.... she is a sister in Christ an apology is in order don't you think?

I don't think this is any of your business WIP.  I want to see what she has to say, and go from there. 

 

BTW, some people think I have something against Nebula because I often disagree with her.  That is not the case.  I do like Nebula.  I didn't say what I did to hurt her feelings, but I am trying to clear things up and the only way to do that is by being direct. 

 

 

It is my business..nebula is my sister in Christ....you have hurt her feelings..that matters to me.

 

As far as I am concerned, it is none of your business. 

[other one]

 

Butero you have hurt nebula's feelings..you say you want to correct that ...you haven't.... she is a sister in Christ an apology is in order don't you think?

I don't think this is any of your business WIP.  I want to see what she has to say, and go from there. 

 

BTW, some people think I have something against Nebula because I often disagree with her.  That is not the case.  I do like Nebula.  I didn't say what I did to hurt her feelings, but I am trying to clear things up and the only way to do that is by being direct. 

 

I think there are ways to deal with things without being so blunt that it's harmful to another person....   it may well be that you are not able to do that, but it's something that you should really look into.   

 

And yes it is my business. God made it so a long time ago.

[Guest Butero]

 

 

Butero you have hurt nebula's feelings..you say you want to correct that ...you haven't.... she is a sister in Christ an apology is in order don't you think?

I don't think this is any of your business WIP.  I want to see what she has to say, and go from there. 

 

BTW, some people think I have something against Nebula because I often disagree with her.  That is not the case.  I do like Nebula.  I didn't say what I did to hurt her feelings, but I am trying to clear things up and the only way to do that is by being direct. 

 

I think there are ways to deal with things without being so blunt that it's harmful to another person....   it may well be that you are not able to do that, but it's something that you should really look into.   

 

And yes it is my business. God made it so a long time ago.

 

Proverbs 26:17

[WIP]

Butero

 

Matt 25: 40 Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

[Guest Butero]

Butero

 

Matt 25: 40 Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Jesus was one of the most blunt people I have ever seen. Notice this conversation from Matthew 16:22,23.

 

Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord:  this shall not be unto thee.  But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan, thou art an offense unto me for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

 

Now imagine one of the other Apostles turning to Jesus and saying to him what Other One said to me.  "I think there are other ways to deal with things without being so blunt that it's harmful to another person...  it may well be that you aren't able to do that, but it's something you should really look into.

 

Had I been Peter, what Jesus said would have hurt my feelings, but his words were true.  Should he have apologized for being so blunt?   How about this example from Matthew 15:25,26.  A woman came to Jesus seeking to have him cast a devil out of her daughter.  Look at what he said. 

 

Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.  But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.

 

That would have hurt most people's feelings.  Are you and Other One going to rebuke Jesus and tell him he owes this woman an apology?  We all sing songs about being like Jesus, and I wonder if people really know how Jesus was?  The same thing goes with the other apostles.  Peter was very blunt when he spoke to the crowd in Acts, and look at what Stephen said to those he preached to. 

[alphaparticle]

 

Here is a hypothetical scenario. Suppose there is one church i could go to, reasonably, in my area. Now I am considering, what would have to be wrong with it, or be right with it, for me to attend or join?

 

There seems to be an obvious line at fundamentals of the faith. If the church denies that Jesus was God in the flesh or some such that would be sufficient reason for me to not go. The second might be endorsement of stuff the Bible clearly says is wrong, that the common body of believers who are at least moderately grounded in the faith agree on, say, adultery is wrong or something like that.

 

But now what? It's not so clear to me. Suppose I go and there is an issue with people gossiping. Or suppose they are just kind of lukewarm, would it be better to go or not?

 

The Church of Jesus Christ has always been a problem child, going all the way back to the First Century.  Paul had to deal with people getting drunk at the Lord's Supper, he had people teaching and believing that Gentiles had to convert to Jewish religion to be saved, he was battling the Gnostic heresy in Colosse.  There was strive and division in Corinth and the church at Corinth even had a man who was fornicating with his mother-in-law.   He was having to settle issues of related to those who were judging each other over matters of conscience, and in II Corinthians he had to write that entire letter to defend his apostleship to the Corinthians who were led astray by false apostles trying to discredit him. There was one congregation where Paul had to call out two women by name and tell them to stop quarrelling.  There were all kinds of problems and you can get a sense of what kinds of problems by reading Paul's instructions.

 

The writer of Hebrews had to contend with Jewish believers who had become stagnate and lazy in their spiritual growth and others that were contemplating going back to living in the framework of the Old Testament Economy.   When you read Revelation 2 and 3 there are seven churches in Asia Minor that are already on the decline. Lukewarm, materialistic believers, some who had gotten worldly and lost their focus.

 

John also has to write the general Christian population and warn them about those in congregations that are leading people astray from believing that Jesus has come in the flesh.  John wrote his three letters to teach how to spot false believers and false teachers.

 

To be truthful a lot hasn't changed.  So where to go?  That is between you and the Holy Spirit.

 

Fair enough. To be honest I've enjoyed reading your thoughts on this thread. We are currently looking at churches so all this is pretty timely for me. Thanks for the feedback.

[other one]

 

 

 

Butero you have hurt nebula's feelings..you say you want to correct that ...you haven't.... she is a sister in Christ an apology is in order don't you think?

I don't think this is any of your business WIP.  I want to see what she has to say, and go from there. 

 

BTW, some people think I have something against Nebula because I often disagree with her.  That is not the case.  I do like Nebula.  I didn't say what I did to hurt her feelings, but I am trying to clear things up and the only way to do that is by being direct. 

 

I think there are ways to deal with things without being so blunt that it's harmful to another person....   it may well be that you are not able to do that, but it's something that you should really look into.   

 

And yes it is my business. God made it so a long time ago.

 

Proverbs 26:17

 

You have no idea brother.....

[nebula]

Hi all - thank you for your concern. It means a lot to me.

 

Just so you know, Butero sent me a personal message to apologize and attempt to clear things up.

 

 

Butero, I can't respond right now, but will attempt to do so in a few days. It's going to take me a while to unravel this "spaghetti". 

[Guest shiloh357]

Here's the thing:

 

When a person confesses to not belonging to a church and expresses what is going on in their heart and soul with this, the typical response comes across as saying:

 

- Your concerns are not valid

 

- The problem is your attitude

 

- If you would just be less selfish and focused on what you can give rather than what you can get, you will be happy in church again

 

and the like.

 

I don't see where anyone has said any of the above.  That is an emotional reaction to what was actually said, not what was actually said.  No one has said that your concerns are not valid or that you have an attitude problem.  No one has accused you of being selfish, either.  Nor have I or anyone else suggested that you will be happy in church again if you give.

 

 

 

 

- Acknowledging and sympathizing with another's concerns is not "validating their feelings", as the expression seems to suggest. We are not interested in having our feeling stroked. But what we are asking for is compassion rather than condescension, an acknowledgement that our hurts and struggles are genuine hurts and genuine struggles. We are not a problem that needs to be fixed, nor are we a debate to be won. We are living souls who have been crushed and broken, and it hurts us worse to not be treated with respect. 

 

Seriously, some of the best counseling I have received was from someone who said something like this, "I am sorry you had to go through that. What are you going to do about it?" And then the person helped guide me to find the answer from my own heart - my spirit,as I searched for direction from the Lord - rather than trying to advise or dictate or "suggest" what I should do.

 

I have found that sometimes, it is necessary in dealing with a person's issues to confront them with issues that they may not like to have to address.  I have found married couples where each spouse is readily able to point to the flaws of the other person, but they are unwilling to address their own contrbution to the problem.  They get offended when the suggestion is made that they have some things to work on in themselves.  If my wife, or if my husband would just be what the other person expects them to be, the problem would be solved.  They walk out angry because the counselor didn't take their side against the other person.

 

- No, the problem is not my attitude. The problem is that there is brokenness in the church. Are you going to brush aside that problem, or are you going to seek solutions? I'm not interested in merging back into and becoming one with the problem. I want to overcome the problem. But it's not going to be overcome by warming a pew every Sunday morning or becoming involved in ministry or the like. The brokenness in the church needs to be healed; yet I am no Martin Luther who can nail a bunch of thesis to a door. Nor am I a Mother Theresa who has the wherewithal to venture to a foreign land and establish a hospital and the like. 

 

What if everyone did that? What if we all decided that the church is too broken to be a part of and so we all just stop going?  Would the healing happen?  Why is being a part of the solution everyone else's resonsibility and not yours?   How is avoiding church altogether going to help you get over the problem?   Healing comes from within, but it takes people to be ministers of that healing.  How is that possible if we decide that until the church is "healed" we are not going to venture in?   Isn't that kind of self-defeating and is that biblical?   What about all of the exhortations in the NT about how Christians are supposed to respond to problems in the churches?  And if healing did take place, how would you know if you never venture in?  

 

It's easy to sit on the sidelines and lecture the church about all of its flaws and everything that you feel it isn't doing correctly. Anyone can criticize. True we aren't Martin Luther or Mother Theresa, but we each have gifts and a place to serve and by the way, we are accountable for that.  We don't serve God when all of the conditions are right and everything meets our approval in terms of what a church or what THE Church is doing or not doing.  We don't serve the Church or churches, ultimately.  We serve God and we will stand before the judgment seat of Christ and we will have to given an accounting of how we used our gifts in His service.  Is the fact that we were hamstrung by a broken church going to cut it?

 

 

 

-  I am an introvert - you extroverts have no idea how much interacting with people drains our energy. And I am a female - while you males find your value/worth/esteem in the works of your hands, we women find value/worth/esteem in relationships. It's a slap in the face to tell a woman that seeking relationships is being selfish. It's torture to an introvert to be asked to fit into the mold of an extrovert. 

 

 

I don't think this is an extrovert/introvert issue.    I also don't see where were anyone in this thread has called you selfish.  If you are interested in relationships, how is that characteristic of a introvert?  Introverts usually aschew relationships.  In addition, I don't see where anyone has called you selfish.  I think that is an unfair and untrue accusation on your part.

[oak]

OK, stopping by quickly because I need to address this.

 

... Your position is so unreasonable in what you expect form a Pastor and a church, there is almost no chance you will ever find it.  It comes across like you have set the bar to this height so you will never be able to find a church to attend, and you can always justify not being in church.  You can't just not go to church and feel ok with not going, but you have to tear down the church as an institution so you can feel justified in not going.  It is similar to how you tear down the KJV Bible and the reliability of all translations to justify new translations, rather than just using whatever you want and being happy with it.  Why do you have this need to destroy?

I feel very hurt that this is what you gathered from what I said.

Perhaps I first need to clarify something. Between trying to explain my situation and battling debates of individual points, it seems there's been mix-up of issues. Why I stopped going to two particular churches I had been attending and why I am having difficulty finding a new church to join is a different "box" from analyzing problems going on in the church. While I have been expressing both at the same time - because we females tend to intertwine things like that - I am not failing to attend church because I'm looking for the "perfect" church.

Why do you not go to church Butero?

But maybe I have to accept that certain people have prejudgments, and no matter what I say or try to explain, those pre-judgments will always take precedence?

You truly believe my motivation is to destroy? You read my words as if I am tearing the church down in order to justify my actions? Really? Is it so hard for you to believe that a person encountered the problems before they took the action - that I struggled with the issues first?

Really Butero, I am feeling so hurt I am dumbfounded.

 

You and I hold some things in common.  We both are currently out of church, and we both have reasons for being out of church.  Reading your comments may have been helpful to me in one way.  Your positions are so extreme and your problems with the church are so negative, it has made me have to consider the possibility that the problem isn't entirely with the church, but with those of us who stopped going.  Perhaps our expectations are unreasonable?  That doesn't mean I approve of the things I see going on, but Shiloh is right when he says that if we found the perfect church, when we join, it will cease to be perfect.

What is so wrong with longing to belong to a body of believers that actually treats each other like a family, where the members truly care for each others needs and truly help each other, where members of the congregation are considered fellow ministers rather than "the laity" as separate from "the clergy", where the church is not the pastors "kingdom" but the pastor considers himself a servant-leader?

Dear Nebula,

Your conversation with Shiloh are the main point in this post: I like Butero as well but the thread has become largely a point, counterpoint between you and Shiloh. Let me address your issue simply. I feel Shiloh, is knowledgeably gifted. However no one - given the limitations of the internet, can read you the way you want to be read. If I was part of your Church, let us say in another state, I would have to go to you; to see, feel, and discern what your saying for myself. This is impossible in this type of forum. And till anyone does actually come to see your reality, the issue is more of opinion than fact.