What is the Talmud?

[*Zion*]

The letter kills but the Spirit gives Life. 

[Qnts2]

I see; so the Gemara is debate/commentary on the Mishna, and the Mishna is the oral commentary on the written Torah?

Yes, the Gemara is debate/commentary on the Mishna. Since Judaism views the Mishna as more then commentary, but rather explanation or further details given by God Himself, orally  to Moses at Mt. Sinai, viewing it as commentary is difficult for me. I do not believe the Mishna was given by God to Moses.

 

I tend to believe the Mishna is actually decisions by the judges in Jewish courts of law, concerning the practice of the commandments, but I have no such proof. Other books do contain some of these court decisions but of a later time frame then the Mishna would cover.    

[John Bernall]

In a nut shell, the Tal'mud is the written record of the "traditions" developed by the Jewish elders between the Babylonian exile and approximately 250 years after the second temple's destruction. These are the things Yeshua mentioned in saying (Mark 7:6-9,13): "Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written: 'This people honors Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me. And in vain they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.' For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men - the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do. . . . All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. . . . making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do."

[angels4u]

 

Sorry if the question has been asked before.  Can anyone shed light on this for me please?  Many thanks in advance

 

The Talmud is of course a Judaism religious book. It is divided into two major sections, the Mishnah and the Gemarah.

 

In Judaism, the Rabbis teach that God gave a written Torah, and an oral Torah. The Oral Torah (Mishnah) was to be passed down verbally, thru the Priesthood etc. The Oral Torah was to provide more information and details on how the written Torah commandments were to be practiced.  After Jesus time, when the Temple was destroyed, there was concern about the loss of this oral law without a Priesthood, Temple, and Jewish people being scattered, so what was remembered was written down. Just as a note, of the sects of Judaism of that time, only the Pharisees believed in this Oral Torah. The Sadducees and the Essenes did not believe that an oral law was actually handed down.

 

The Gemarah is Rabbinical commentary/debates. In Jewish culture, debate is used to investigate a topic, and as a learning tool. The Gemarah is mostly Rabbinic debates. Each section of the Mishnah is also based on scripture. So you have the written law, and the oral explanation of that law, and then the Rabbinic debates. The Rabbis would look at scripture and oral law, and would take potential positions of the possible meaning and application. Some of these proposals are extreme. They would then debate the various stands. The Talmud does not really have the conclusion or final decision based on the debates.

 

Pirkei Avot (Wisdom of the Fathers) 1:1 Moses received Torah from Sinai and handed it down to Joshua; and Joshua to the Elders; and the Elders to the Prophets; and the Prophets handed it down to the members of the Great Assembly. They said three things: Be deliberate in judgement, stand up many students, and make a fence for the Torah.

 

This section describes the supposed chain of transmission of the Oral Torah.  If you will notice, the final section mentions making a fence around the Torah. This fence is what Jesus spoke against in many instances. To make sure the law was not accidently broken, certain commands were expanded so that someone would not accidently break the command. 

 

A simple example that I have used is, if you believed that God told you to pray for someone, everyday for the next month, at 2 pm until 2:30 pm,  most Christians would indeed pray at 2 pm to 2:30. But, what if you get busy, and miss the start time? What if you clock is off by 5 minutes? God did say 2 pm. Would you start at 1:50? (Most Christians I have asked agreed that they would start a little early because God was so specific about the time). Well, what if you clock is off the other way by 5 minutes? Would you finish praying at 2:40 to make sure you were praying at the right time? Most Christian I have asked agreed that they would pray a little longer. I think asked if perhaps, the times God gave were actually based on Israeli time. Would they set an alarm for 1:50 pm Israel time, and pray then also? Not as many Christians said they would do that, but many still said they would so as not to miss what God asked them to do. That is an example of a fence around the law. It is routed in the desire to do what God said, and not miss it. Some of the fences made by the Rabbis do go to some silly extremes. Some debates are very tedious, as they comb thru such fine details.  

 

The Talmud uses expressions which are very unique and difficult to understand without an explanation. They are like Jewish court room expressions, or Rabbinical slang.

 

Thank you for posting this ,it is very interesting! I wish I knew more about the history  of those days 

[John Bernall]

 

Sorry if the question has been asked before.  Can anyone shed light on this for me please?  Many thanks in advance

 

The Talmud is of course a Judaism religious book. It is divided into two major sections, the Mishnah and the Gemarah.

 

In Judaism, the Rabbis teach that God gave a written Torah, and an oral Torah. The Oral Torah (Mishnah) was to be passed down verbally, thru the Priesthood etc. The Oral Torah was to provide more information and details on how the written Torah commandments were to be practiced.  After Jesus time, when the Temple was destroyed, there was concern about the loss of this oral law without a Priesthood, Temple, and Jewish people being scattered, so what was remembered was written down. Just as a note, of the sects of Judaism of that time, only the Pharisees believed in this Oral Torah. The Sadducees and the Essenes did not believe that an oral law was actually handed down.

 

The Gemarah is Rabbinical commentary/debates. In Jewish culture, debate is used to investigate a topic, and as a learning tool. The Gemarah is mostly Rabbinic debates. Each section of the Mishnah is also based on scripture. So you have the written law, and the oral explanation of that law, and then the Rabbinic debates. The Rabbis would look at scripture and oral law, and would take potential positions of the possible meaning and application. Some of these proposals are extreme. They would then debate the various stands. The Talmud does not really have the conclusion or final decision based on the debates.

 

Pirkei Avot (Wisdom of the Fathers) 1:1 Moses received Torah from Sinai and handed it down to Joshua; and Joshua to the Elders; and the Elders to the Prophets; and the Prophets handed it down to the members of the Great Assembly. They said three things: Be deliberate in judgement, stand up many students, and make a fence for the Torah.

 

This section describes the supposed chain of transmission of the Oral Torah.  If you will notice, the final section mentions making a fence around the Torah. This fence is what Jesus spoke against in many instances. To make sure the law was not accidently broken, certain commands were expanded so that someone would not accidently break the command. 

 

A simple example that I have used is, if you believed that God told you to pray for someone, everyday for the next month, at 2 pm until 2:30 pm,  most Christians would indeed pray at 2 pm to 2:30. But, what if you get busy, and miss the start time? What if you clock is off by 5 minutes? God did say 2 pm. Would you start at 1:50? (Most Christians I have asked agreed that they would start a little early because God was so specific about the time). Well, what if you clock is off the other way by 5 minutes? Would you finish praying at 2:40 to make sure you were praying at the right time? Most Christian I have asked agreed that they would pray a little longer. I think asked if perhaps, the times God gave were actually based on Israeli time. Would they set an alarm for 1:50 pm Israel time, and pray then also? Not as many Christians said they would do that, but many still said they would so as not to miss what God asked them to do. That is an example of a fence around the law. It is routed in the desire to do what God said, and not miss it. Some of the fences made by the Rabbis do go to some silly extremes. Some debates are very tedious, as they comb thru such fine details.  

 

The Talmud uses expressions which are very unique and difficult to understand without an explanation. They are like Jewish court room expressions, or Rabbinical slang.

 

 

 

Just wanting to make some minor adjustments to the information . . .

 

Qnts2:

". . . The Oral Torah (Mishnah) was to be passed down verbally, thru the Priesthood etc." 

 

~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~

Not quite. The Oral Torah (Torah Sh'b'al-Peh) was not to be passed down through the Priests. You have actually cited below from the Oral Torah the main passage that tells us this. According to tradition it was passed through from Joshua, to the Judges, being the Elders, who were members equally chosen from all the tribes. And then, from them, to the Prophets, etc. Priests are not mentioned in this chain of custody, though some of the Elders were Priests and Levites. It may be interesting to note in Torah that the custody of the Torah was to be through the Priests and Levites. Like it's alluded to in the commandment for a King to write a copy of it (Deuteronomy 17:18):

 

"Also it shall be, when he sits on the throne of his kingdom, that he shall write for himself a copy of this Law in a book, from the one before the Priests, the Levites."

 

and it is also said (Deuteronomy 31:9): 

 

"So Moses wrote this Law and delivered it to the Priests, the sons of Levi, who bore the ark of the covenant of the LORD, and to all the elders of Israel."

 

"For the lips of a Priest should keep knowledge, And people should seek the Law from his mouth; For he is the messenger of the LORD of Hosts." (Malachi 2.7)

 

Ultimately what the Oral Torah did was to serve in the usurping of the Torah itself that was once in the hands of the Priests and Levites, especially after the destruction of the temple.

~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~

 

Qnts2:

"The Oral Torah was to provide more information and details on how the written Torah commandments were to be practiced.  After Jesus time, when the Temple was destroyed, there was concern about the loss of this oral law without a Priesthood, Temple, and Jewish people being scattered, so what was remembered was written down. Just as a note, of the sects of Judaism of that time, only the Pharisees believed in this Oral Torah. The Sadducees and the Essenes did not believe that an oral law was actually handed down."

 

~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~

Almost. The concern for loss of the oral law really had nothing to do with the loss of the temple and priesthood. They began to write it down because those who knew these traditions were becoming few and dying out. Many were being killed by Romans. Yochanan ben Zakkai was the one at Jerusalem's final siege who made a deal with the devil (Vespasian), and asked that the family of Hillel (Gamliel) be spared, and that they be allowed to move to Yav'neh. Few of the Sages were given leave to go with them, and they began the Palestinian accademy from which came the earlier redactions of the traditions and the beginning of the Tal'mud Y'rushal'mi, collecting what oral traditions they could (Mish'nah) and making up new things to add thereto (Gemara), they made further redactions (Tosefta). A bit more info on the sects then, there were 26-30 different sectaries. The pharisees were actually a small group, but noted for their stricture and observances. There still existed many other groups after the destruction of the temple and later Jerusalem itself, but they had assimilated into the Jewish communities they were in dispersion with. Good resources are "Sketches of Jewish Social Life" and "The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah" by Alfred Edersheim. 

~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~

 

Qnts2:

". . . In Jewish culture, debate is used to investigate a topic, and as a learning tool. The Gemarah is mostly Rabbinic debates." 

 

~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~

I'm not sure how to respond to this, because it's not quite correct, but at the same time, it's unofficially true concerning the Rabbinical lol Not all of Jewish culture was/is Rabbanic Centric. Not all have embraced the Talmud. There are the odd ones ~ the Karaites. There were those of an orthodoxy that refused Talmud into their midst. But as with most things that are persistent, it crept in. The same thing happened with Kabbalah. Most orthodoxy refused it. But ultimately it spread and became more acceptable. 

 

While there are some debates in the Tal'mud, to listen to a Mach'zor and participate and engage with it, isn't always debate. The teaching found in there are not always actual debates recorded. Sometimes it will say Rav-1 says, "thus n such," but Rav-2 has said, "this n that." And these two are more than likely from different regions or times and never met. In a Mach'zor Shiur, it's more listening to the M'lamed and by asking questions it becomes more investigative (as you have mentioned), searching every angle to a topic, even to the slightest detail of a letter's presence or lack thereof in a word. I sometimes miss the Daf Yomi classes.

~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~

 

Qnts2:

"Each section of the Mishnah is also based on scripture." 

 

~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~

No, not really. There's maybe 5% scripture to every Masekta (Section of a Book), and often times they are out of context or have little or nothing to do with the topic discussed. Though many of the topics are based upon Scriptural concepts, like the Sh'ma, Scripture itself is not as present in the Tal'mud. Everything else is based upon the sages interpretation of how it should be done - Halakhah. But some things, though based upon the text, are not actually what the text is saying or meaning. Example would be the first Mish'nah of the first Masekta concerning reciting the Sh'ma in the evening. It doesn't quote the Scripture, but merely refers to it. And the discussion being about when you recite Sh'ma in the evening completely neglects the Scripture that plainly says, "When you lie down" lol

 

But that's nothing. There's no commandment in Torah to recite the Sh'ma. The Sh'ma itself is the commandment to speak of "all of these words" and teach them to your kids and such, and "all of these words" are the Ten Utterances in the previous chapter. So, yeah, they refer to text, but not to what it actually means.

~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~

 

Qnts2:

Pirkei Avot (Wisdom of the Fathers) 1:1 Moses received Torah from Sinai and handed it down to Joshua; and Joshua to the Elders; and the Elders to the Prophets; and the Prophets handed it down to the members of the Great Assembly. They said three things: Be deliberate in judgement, stand up many students, and make a fence for the Torah.

 

This section describes the supposed chain of transmission of the Oral Torah.  If you will notice, the final section mentions making a fence around the Torah. This fence is what Jesus spoke against in many instances. To make sure the law was not accidently broken, certain commands were expanded so that someone would not accidently break the command. 

 

~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~

Yesh, Mish'nah was the first fence; Gemara was the second; Tosefta was the third . . . then about 600-700 ce later Rabbis added stuff and continued until the medieval period. Savoraim, Geonim, and Rishonim, until the consolidation of the Shulkan Arukh, about 1550-1560?

~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~

 

Qnts2:

"The Talmud uses expressions which are very unique and difficult to understand without an explanation. They are like Jewish court room expressions, or Rabbinical slang."

 

~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~

"Rabbinical slang" made me giggle. I remember those words. But how can I not, I still listen to Talmud Shiurim online. But yes, words like R'shuth v'Chovah ~ Permissive and Obligatory; and Maq'pid uMeqel ~ Strict and Lenient. 

[Qnts2]

 

 

Sorry if the question has been asked before.  Can anyone shed light on this for me please?  Many thanks in advance

 

The Talmud is of course a Judaism religious book. It is divided into two major sections, the Mishnah and the Gemarah.

 

In Judaism, the Rabbis teach that God gave a written Torah, and an oral Torah. The Oral Torah (Mishnah) was to be passed down verbally, thru the Priesthood etc. The Oral Torah was to provide more information and details on how the written Torah commandments were to be practiced.  After Jesus time, when the Temple was destroyed, there was concern about the loss of this oral law without a Priesthood, Temple, and Jewish people being scattered, so what was remembered was written down. Just as a note, of the sects of Judaism of that time, only the Pharisees believed in this Oral Torah. The Sadducees and the Essenes did not believe that an oral law was actually handed down.

 

The Gemarah is Rabbinical commentary/debates. In Jewish culture, debate is used to investigate a topic, and as a learning tool. The Gemarah is mostly Rabbinic debates. Each section of the Mishnah is also based on scripture. So you have the written law, and the oral explanation of that law, and then the Rabbinic debates. The Rabbis would look at scripture and oral law, and would take potential positions of the possible meaning and application. Some of these proposals are extreme. They would then debate the various stands. The Talmud does not really have the conclusion or final decision based on the debates.

 

Pirkei Avot (Wisdom of the Fathers) 1:1 Moses received Torah from Sinai and handed it down to Joshua; and Joshua to the Elders; and the Elders to the Prophets; and the Prophets handed it down to the members of the Great Assembly. They said three things: Be deliberate in judgement, stand up many students, and make a fence for the Torah.

 

This section describes the supposed chain of transmission of the Oral Torah.  If you will notice, the final section mentions making a fence around the Torah. This fence is what Jesus spoke against in many instances. To make sure the law was not accidently broken, certain commands were expanded so that someone would not accidently break the command. 

 

A simple example that I have used is, if you believed that God told you to pray for someone, everyday for the next month, at 2 pm until 2:30 pm,  most Christians would indeed pray at 2 pm to 2:30. But, what if you get busy, and miss the start time? What if you clock is off by 5 minutes? God did say 2 pm. Would you start at 1:50? (Most Christians I have asked agreed that they would start a little early because God was so specific about the time). Well, what if you clock is off the other way by 5 minutes? Would you finish praying at 2:40 to make sure you were praying at the right time? Most Christian I have asked agreed that they would pray a little longer. I think asked if perhaps, the times God gave were actually based on Israeli time. Would they set an alarm for 1:50 pm Israel time, and pray then also? Not as many Christians said they would do that, but many still said they would so as not to miss what God asked them to do. That is an example of a fence around the law. It is routed in the desire to do what God said, and not miss it. Some of the fences made by the Rabbis do go to some silly extremes. Some debates are very tedious, as they comb thru such fine details.  

 

The Talmud uses expressions which are very unique and difficult to understand without an explanation. They are like Jewish court room expressions, or Rabbinical slang.

 

 

 

Just wanting to make some minor adjustments to the information . . .

 

Qnts2:

". . . The Oral Torah (Mishnah) was to be passed down verbally, thru the Priesthood etc." 

 

~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~

Not quite. The Oral Torah (Torah Sh'b'al-Peh) was not to be passed down through the Priests. You have actually cited below from the Oral Torah the main passage that tells us this. According to tradition it was passed through from Joshua, to the Judges, being the Elders, who were members equally chosen from all the tribes. And then, from them, to the Prophets, etc. Priests are not mentioned in this chain of custody, though some of the Elders were Priests and Levites. It may be interesting to note in Torah that the custody of the Torah was to be through the Priests and Levites. Like it's alluded to in the commandment for a King to write a copy of it (Deuteronomy 17:18):

 

"Also it shall be, when he sits on the throne of his kingdom, that he shall write for himself a copy of this Law in a book, from the one before the Priests, the Levites."

 

and it is also said (Deuteronomy 31:9): 

 

"So Moses wrote this Law and delivered it to the Priests, the sons of Levi, who bore the ark of the covenant of the LORD, and to all the elders of Israel."

 

"For the lips of a Priest should keep knowledge, And people should seek the Law from his mouth; For he is the messenger of the LORD of Hosts." (Malachi 2.7)

 

Ultimately what the Oral Torah did was to serve in the usurping of the Torah itself that was once in the hands of the Priests and Levites, especially after the destruction of the temple.

~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~

 

Qnts2:

"The Oral Torah was to provide more information and details on how the written Torah commandments were to be practiced.  After Jesus time, when the Temple was destroyed, there was concern about the loss of this oral law without a Priesthood, Temple, and Jewish people being scattered, so what was remembered was written down. Just as a note, of the sects of Judaism of that time, only the Pharisees believed in this Oral Torah. The Sadducees and the Essenes did not believe that an oral law was actually handed down."

 

~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~

Almost. The concern for loss of the oral law really had nothing to do with the loss of the temple and priesthood. They began to write it down because those who knew these traditions were becoming few and dying out. Many were being killed by Romans. Yochanan ben Zakkai was the one at Jerusalem's final siege who made a deal with the devil (Vespasian), and asked that the family of Hillel (Gamliel) be spared, and that they be allowed to move to Yav'neh. Few of the Sages were given leave to go with them, and they began the Palestinian accademy from which came the earlier redactions of the traditions and the beginning of the Tal'mud Y'rushal'mi, collecting what oral traditions they could (Mish'nah) and making up new things to add thereto (Gemara), they made further redactions (Tosefta). A bit more info on the sects then, there were 26-30 different sectaries. The pharisees were actually a small group, but noted for their stricture and observances. There still existed many other groups after the destruction of the temple and later Jerusalem itself, but they had assimilated into the Jewish communities they were in dispersion with. Good resources are "Sketches of Jewish Social Life" and "The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah" by Alfred Edersheim. 

~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~

 

Qnts2:

". . . In Jewish culture, debate is used to investigate a topic, and as a learning tool. The Gemarah is mostly Rabbinic debates." 

 

~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~

I'm not sure how to respond to this, because it's not quite correct, but at the same time, it's unofficially true concerning the Rabbinical lol Not all of Jewish culture was/is Rabbanic Centric. Not all have embraced the Talmud. There are the odd ones ~ the Karaites. There were those of an orthodoxy that refused Talmud into their midst. But as with most things that are persistent, it crept in. The same thing happened with Kabbalah. Most orthodoxy refused it. But ultimately it spread and became more acceptable. 

 

While there are some debates in the Tal'mud, to listen to a Mach'zor and participate and engage with it, isn't always debate. The teaching found in there are not always actual debates recorded. Sometimes it will say Rav-1 says, "thus n such," but Rav-2 has said, "this n that." And these two are more than likely from different regions or times and never met. In a Mach'zor Shiur, it's more listening to the M'lamed and by asking questions it becomes more investigative (as you have mentioned), searching every angle to a topic, even to the slightest detail of a letter's presence or lack thereof in a word. I sometimes miss the Daf Yomi classes.

~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~

 

Qnts2:

"Each section of the Mishnah is also based on scripture." 

 

~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~

No, not really. There's maybe 5% scripture to every Masekta (Section of a Book), and often times they are out of context or have little or nothing to do with the topic discussed. Though many of the topics are based upon Scriptural concepts, like the Sh'ma, Scripture itself is not as present in the Tal'mud. Everything else is based upon the sages interpretation of how it should be done - Halakhah. But some things, though based upon the text, are not actually what the text is saying or meaning. Example would be the first Mish'nah of the first Masekta concerning reciting the Sh'ma in the evening. It doesn't quote the Scripture, but merely refers to it. And the discussion being about when you recite Sh'ma in the evening completely neglects the Scripture that plainly says, "When you lie down" lol

 

But that's nothing. There's no commandment in Torah to recite the Sh'ma. The Sh'ma itself is the commandment to speak of "all of these words" and teach them to your kids and such, and "all of these words" are the Ten Utterances in the previous chapter. So, yeah, they refer to text, but not to what it actually means.

~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~

 

Qnts2:

Pirkei Avot (Wisdom of the Fathers) 1:1 Moses received Torah from Sinai and handed it down to Joshua; and Joshua to the Elders; and the Elders to the Prophets; and the Prophets handed it down to the members of the Great Assembly. They said three things: Be deliberate in judgement, stand up many students, and make a fence for the Torah.

 

This section describes the supposed chain of transmission of the Oral Torah.  If you will notice, the final section mentions making a fence around the Torah. This fence is what Jesus spoke against in many instances. To make sure the law was not accidently broken, certain commands were expanded so that someone would not accidently break the command. 

 

~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~

Yesh, Mish'nah was the first fence; Gemara was the second; Tosefta was the third . . . then about 600-700 ce later Rabbis added stuff and continued until the medieval period. Savoraim, Geonim, and Rishonim, until the consolidation of the Shulkan Arukh, about 1550-1560?

~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~

 

Qnts2:

"The Talmud uses expressions which are very unique and difficult to understand without an explanation. They are like Jewish court room expressions, or Rabbinical slang."

 

~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~

"Rabbinical slang" made me giggle. I remember those words. But how can I not, I still listen to Talmud Shiurim online. But yes, words like R'shuth v'Chovah ~ Permissive and Obligatory; and Maq'pid uMeqel ~ Strict and Lenient. 

 

I'll just say that my writing was an intro and overview of the Talmud. Not an overview of other Jews writings or the chain of authority. I disagree with a lot of what you wrote, but won't go into the details as this is an overview.

 

Since the High Priest was to head the high court (Great Sanhedrin), the Priest were to be the final judges or ruling authority. The re-group in Yavneh, worked to slowly establish a Judaism, minue the Temple, the Priests etc. Yes, the legend of the Oral Law becoming written in the Talmud is tied tightly to the loss of the Temple, the Priesthood. And the development of a Judaism practiced in diaspora, without a Temple and the Priests. Yavneh was in my view, a power play, and power grab.    

[John Bernall]

 

 

 

Sorry if the question has been asked before.  Can anyone shed light on this for me please?  Many thanks in advance

 

The Talmud is of course a Judaism religious book. It is divided into two major sections, the Mishnah and the Gemarah.

 

In Judaism, the Rabbis teach that God gave a written Torah, and an oral Torah. The Oral Torah (Mishnah) was to be passed down verbally, thru the Priesthood etc. The Oral Torah was to provide more information and details on how the written Torah commandments were to be practiced.  After Jesus time, when the Temple was destroyed, there was concern about the loss of this oral law without a Priesthood, Temple, and Jewish people being scattered, so what was remembered was written down. Just as a note, of the sects of Judaism of that time, only the Pharisees believed in this Oral Torah. The Sadducees and the Essenes did not believe that an oral law was actually handed down.

 

The Gemarah is Rabbinical commentary/debates. In Jewish culture, debate is used to investigate a topic, and as a learning tool. The Gemarah is mostly Rabbinic debates. Each section of the Mishnah is also based on scripture. So you have the written law, and the oral explanation of that law, and then the Rabbinic debates. The Rabbis would look at scripture and oral law, and would take potential positions of the possible meaning and application. Some of these proposals are extreme. They would then debate the various stands. The Talmud does not really have the conclusion or final decision based on the debates.

 

Pirkei Avot (Wisdom of the Fathers) 1:1 Moses received Torah from Sinai and handed it down to Joshua; and Joshua to the Elders; and the Elders to the Prophets; and the Prophets handed it down to the members of the Great Assembly. They said three things: Be deliberate in judgement, stand up many students, and make a fence for the Torah.

 

This section describes the supposed chain of transmission of the Oral Torah.  If you will notice, the final section mentions making a fence around the Torah. This fence is what Jesus spoke against in many instances. To make sure the law was not accidently broken, certain commands were expanded so that someone would not accidently break the command. 

 

A simple example that I have used is, if you believed that God told you to pray for someone, everyday for the next month, at 2 pm until 2:30 pm,  most Christians would indeed pray at 2 pm to 2:30. But, what if you get busy, and miss the start time? What if you clock is off by 5 minutes? God did say 2 pm. Would you start at 1:50? (Most Christians I have asked agreed that they would start a little early because God was so specific about the time). Well, what if you clock is off the other way by 5 minutes? Would you finish praying at 2:40 to make sure you were praying at the right time? Most Christian I have asked agreed that they would pray a little longer. I think asked if perhaps, the times God gave were actually based on Israeli time. Would they set an alarm for 1:50 pm Israel time, and pray then also? Not as many Christians said they would do that, but many still said they would so as not to miss what God asked them to do. That is an example of a fence around the law. It is routed in the desire to do what God said, and not miss it. Some of the fences made by the Rabbis do go to some silly extremes. Some debates are very tedious, as they comb thru such fine details.  

 

The Talmud uses expressions which are very unique and difficult to understand without an explanation. They are like Jewish court room expressions, or Rabbinical slang.

 

 

 

Just wanting to make some minor adjustments to the information . . .

 

Qnts2:

". . . The Oral Torah (Mishnah) was to be passed down verbally, thru the Priesthood etc." 

 

~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~

Not quite. The Oral Torah (Torah Sh'b'al-Peh) was not to be passed down through the Priests. You have actually cited below from the Oral Torah the main passage that tells us this. According to tradition it was passed through from Joshua, to the Judges, being the Elders, who were members equally chosen from all the tribes. And then, from them, to the Prophets, etc. Priests are not mentioned in this chain of custody, though some of the Elders were Priests and Levites. It may be interesting to note in Torah that the custody of the Torah was to be through the Priests and Levites. Like it's alluded to in the commandment for a King to write a copy of it (Deuteronomy 17:18):

 

"Also it shall be, when he sits on the throne of his kingdom, that he shall write for himself a copy of this Law in a book, from the one before the Priests, the Levites."

 

and it is also said (Deuteronomy 31:9): 

 

"So Moses wrote this Law and delivered it to the Priests, the sons of Levi, who bore the ark of the covenant of the LORD, and to all the elders of Israel."

 

"For the lips of a Priest should keep knowledge, And people should seek the Law from his mouth; For he is the messenger of the LORD of Hosts." (Malachi 2.7)

 

Ultimately what the Oral Torah did was to serve in the usurping of the Torah itself that was once in the hands of the Priests and Levites, especially after the destruction of the temple.

~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~

 

Qnts2:

"The Oral Torah was to provide more information and details on how the written Torah commandments were to be practiced.  After Jesus time, when the Temple was destroyed, there was concern about the loss of this oral law without a Priesthood, Temple, and Jewish people being scattered, so what was remembered was written down. Just as a note, of the sects of Judaism of that time, only the Pharisees believed in this Oral Torah. The Sadducees and the Essenes did not believe that an oral law was actually handed down."

 

~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~

Almost. The concern for loss of the oral law really had nothing to do with the loss of the temple and priesthood. They began to write it down because those who knew these traditions were becoming few and dying out. Many were being killed by Romans. Yochanan ben Zakkai was the one at Jerusalem's final siege who made a deal with the devil (Vespasian), and asked that the family of Hillel (Gamliel) be spared, and that they be allowed to move to Yav'neh. Few of the Sages were given leave to go with them, and they began the Palestinian accademy from which came the earlier redactions of the traditions and the beginning of the Tal'mud Y'rushal'mi, collecting what oral traditions they could (Mish'nah) and making up new things to add thereto (Gemara), they made further redactions (Tosefta). A bit more info on the sects then, there were 26-30 different sectaries. The pharisees were actually a small group, but noted for their stricture and observances. There still existed many other groups after the destruction of the temple and later Jerusalem itself, but they had assimilated into the Jewish communities they were in dispersion with. Good resources are "Sketches of Jewish Social Life" and "The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah" by Alfred Edersheim. 

~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~

 

Qnts2:

". . . In Jewish culture, debate is used to investigate a topic, and as a learning tool. The Gemarah is mostly Rabbinic debates." 

 

~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~

I'm not sure how to respond to this, because it's not quite correct, but at the same time, it's unofficially true concerning the Rabbinical lol Not all of Jewish culture was/is Rabbanic Centric. Not all have embraced the Talmud. There are the odd ones ~ the Karaites. There were those of an orthodoxy that refused Talmud into their midst. But as with most things that are persistent, it crept in. The same thing happened with Kabbalah. Most orthodoxy refused it. But ultimately it spread and became more acceptable. 

 

While there are some debates in the Tal'mud, to listen to a Mach'zor and participate and engage with it, isn't always debate. The teaching found in there are not always actual debates recorded. Sometimes it will say Rav-1 says, "thus n such," but Rav-2 has said, "this n that." And these two are more than likely from different regions or times and never met. In a Mach'zor Shiur, it's more listening to the M'lamed and by asking questions it becomes more investigative (as you have mentioned), searching every angle to a topic, even to the slightest detail of a letter's presence or lack thereof in a word. I sometimes miss the Daf Yomi classes.

~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~

 

Qnts2:

"Each section of the Mishnah is also based on scripture." 

 

~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~

No, not really. There's maybe 5% scripture to every Masekta (Section of a Book), and often times they are out of context or have little or nothing to do with the topic discussed. Though many of the topics are based upon Scriptural concepts, like the Sh'ma, Scripture itself is not as present in the Tal'mud. Everything else is based upon the sages interpretation of how it should be done - Halakhah. But some things, though based upon the text, are not actually what the text is saying or meaning. Example would be the first Mish'nah of the first Masekta concerning reciting the Sh'ma in the evening. It doesn't quote the Scripture, but merely refers to it. And the discussion being about when you recite Sh'ma in the evening completely neglects the Scripture that plainly says, "When you lie down" lol

 

But that's nothing. There's no commandment in Torah to recite the Sh'ma. The Sh'ma itself is the commandment to speak of "all of these words" and teach them to your kids and such, and "all of these words" are the Ten Utterances in the previous chapter. So, yeah, they refer to text, but not to what it actually means.

~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~

 

Qnts2:

Pirkei Avot (Wisdom of the Fathers) 1:1 Moses received Torah from Sinai and handed it down to Joshua; and Joshua to the Elders; and the Elders to the Prophets; and the Prophets handed it down to the members of the Great Assembly. They said three things: Be deliberate in judgement, stand up many students, and make a fence for the Torah.

 

This section describes the supposed chain of transmission of the Oral Torah.  If you will notice, the final section mentions making a fence around the Torah. This fence is what Jesus spoke against in many instances. To make sure the law was not accidently broken, certain commands were expanded so that someone would not accidently break the command. 

 

~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~

Yesh, Mish'nah was the first fence; Gemara was the second; Tosefta was the third . . . then about 600-700 ce later Rabbis added stuff and continued until the medieval period. Savoraim, Geonim, and Rishonim, until the consolidation of the Shulkan Arukh, about 1550-1560?

~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~

 

Qnts2:

"The Talmud uses expressions which are very unique and difficult to understand without an explanation. They are like Jewish court room expressions, or Rabbinical slang."

 

~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~

"Rabbinical slang" made me giggle. I remember those words. But how can I not, I still listen to Talmud Shiurim online. But yes, words like R'shuth v'Chovah ~ Permissive and Obligatory; and Maq'pid uMeqel ~ Strict and Lenient. 

 

I'll just say that my writing was an intro and overview of the Talmud. Not an overview of other Jews writings or the chain of authority. I disagree with a lot of what you wrote, but won't go into the details as this is an overview.

 

Since the High Priest was to head the high court (Great Sanhedrin), the Priest were to be the final judges or ruling authority. The re-group in Yavneh, worked to slowly establish a Judaism, minue the Temple, the Priests etc. Yes, the legend of the Oral Law becoming written in the Talmud is tied tightly to the loss of the Temple, the Priesthood. And the development of a Judaism practiced in diaspora, without a Temple and the Priests. Yavneh was in my view, a power play, and power grab.    

 

Well I'm not going to argue with you, it would be fruitless.   

I know whereof I speak, and the learning I have gained in the History and understanding of Judaism as my faith and heritage. 

Be blessed

[Qnts2]

 

 

 

 

Sorry if the question has been asked before.  Can anyone shed light on this for me please?  Many thanks in advance

 

The Talmud is of course a Judaism religious book. It is divided into two major sections, the Mishnah and the Gemarah.

 

In Judaism, the Rabbis teach that God gave a written Torah, and an oral Torah. The Oral Torah (Mishnah) was to be passed down verbally, thru the Priesthood etc. The Oral Torah was to provide more information and details on how the written Torah commandments were to be practiced.  After Jesus time, when the Temple was destroyed, there was concern about the loss of this oral law without a Priesthood, Temple, and Jewish people being scattered, so what was remembered was written down. Just as a note, of the sects of Judaism of that time, only the Pharisees believed in this Oral Torah. The Sadducees and the Essenes did not believe that an oral law was actually handed down.

 

The Gemarah is Rabbinical commentary/debates. In Jewish culture, debate is used to investigate a topic, and as a learning tool. The Gemarah is mostly Rabbinic debates. Each section of the Mishnah is also based on scripture. So you have the written law, and the oral explanation of that law, and then the Rabbinic debates. The Rabbis would look at scripture and oral law, and would take potential positions of the possible meaning and application. Some of these proposals are extreme. They would then debate the various stands. The Talmud does not really have the conclusion or final decision based on the debates.

 

Pirkei Avot (Wisdom of the Fathers) 1:1 Moses received Torah from Sinai and handed it down to Joshua; and Joshua to the Elders; and the Elders to the Prophets; and the Prophets handed it down to the members of the Great Assembly. They said three things: Be deliberate in judgement, stand up many students, and make a fence for the Torah.

 

This section describes the supposed chain of transmission of the Oral Torah.  If you will notice, the final section mentions making a fence around the Torah. This fence is what Jesus spoke against in many instances. To make sure the law was not accidently broken, certain commands were expanded so that someone would not accidently break the command. 

 

A simple example that I have used is, if you believed that God told you to pray for someone, everyday for the next month, at 2 pm until 2:30 pm,  most Christians would indeed pray at 2 pm to 2:30. But, what if you get busy, and miss the start time? What if you clock is off by 5 minutes? God did say 2 pm. Would you start at 1:50? (Most Christians I have asked agreed that they would start a little early because God was so specific about the time). Well, what if you clock is off the other way by 5 minutes? Would you finish praying at 2:40 to make sure you were praying at the right time? Most Christian I have asked agreed that they would pray a little longer. I think asked if perhaps, the times God gave were actually based on Israeli time. Would they set an alarm for 1:50 pm Israel time, and pray then also? Not as many Christians said they would do that, but many still said they would so as not to miss what God asked them to do. That is an example of a fence around the law. It is routed in the desire to do what God said, and not miss it. Some of the fences made by the Rabbis do go to some silly extremes. Some debates are very tedious, as they comb thru such fine details.  

 

The Talmud uses expressions which are very unique and difficult to understand without an explanation. They are like Jewish court room expressions, or Rabbinical slang.

 

 

 

Just wanting to make some minor adjustments to the information . . .

 

Qnts2:

". . . The Oral Torah (Mishnah) was to be passed down verbally, thru the Priesthood etc." 

 

~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~

Not quite. The Oral Torah (Torah Sh'b'al-Peh) was not to be passed down through the Priests. You have actually cited below from the Oral Torah the main passage that tells us this. According to tradition it was passed through from Joshua, to the Judges, being the Elders, who were members equally chosen from all the tribes. And then, from them, to the Prophets, etc. Priests are not mentioned in this chain of custody, though some of the Elders were Priests and Levites. It may be interesting to note in Torah that the custody of the Torah was to be through the Priests and Levites. Like it's alluded to in the commandment for a King to write a copy of it (Deuteronomy 17:18):

 

"Also it shall be, when he sits on the throne of his kingdom, that he shall write for himself a copy of this Law in a book, from the one before the Priests, the Levites."

 

and it is also said (Deuteronomy 31:9): 

 

"So Moses wrote this Law and delivered it to the Priests, the sons of Levi, who bore the ark of the covenant of the LORD, and to all the elders of Israel."

 

"For the lips of a Priest should keep knowledge, And people should seek the Law from his mouth; For he is the messenger of the LORD of Hosts." (Malachi 2.7)

 

Ultimately what the Oral Torah did was to serve in the usurping of the Torah itself that was once in the hands of the Priests and Levites, especially after the destruction of the temple.

~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~

 

Qnts2:

"The Oral Torah was to provide more information and details on how the written Torah commandments were to be practiced.  After Jesus time, when the Temple was destroyed, there was concern about the loss of this oral law without a Priesthood, Temple, and Jewish people being scattered, so what was remembered was written down. Just as a note, of the sects of Judaism of that time, only the Pharisees believed in this Oral Torah. The Sadducees and the Essenes did not believe that an oral law was actually handed down."

 

~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~

Almost. The concern for loss of the oral law really had nothing to do with the loss of the temple and priesthood. They began to write it down because those who knew these traditions were becoming few and dying out. Many were being killed by Romans. Yochanan ben Zakkai was the one at Jerusalem's final siege who made a deal with the devil (Vespasian), and asked that the family of Hillel (Gamliel) be spared, and that they be allowed to move to Yav'neh. Few of the Sages were given leave to go with them, and they began the Palestinian accademy from which came the earlier redactions of the traditions and the beginning of the Tal'mud Y'rushal'mi, collecting what oral traditions they could (Mish'nah) and making up new things to add thereto (Gemara), they made further redactions (Tosefta). A bit more info on the sects then, there were 26-30 different sectaries. The pharisees were actually a small group, but noted for their stricture and observances. There still existed many other groups after the destruction of the temple and later Jerusalem itself, but they had assimilated into the Jewish communities they were in dispersion with. Good resources are "Sketches of Jewish Social Life" and "The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah" by Alfred Edersheim. 

~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~

 

Qnts2:

". . . In Jewish culture, debate is used to investigate a topic, and as a learning tool. The Gemarah is mostly Rabbinic debates." 

 

~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~

I'm not sure how to respond to this, because it's not quite correct, but at the same time, it's unofficially true concerning the Rabbinical lol Not all of Jewish culture was/is Rabbanic Centric. Not all have embraced the Talmud. There are the odd ones ~ the Karaites. There were those of an orthodoxy that refused Talmud into their midst. But as with most things that are persistent, it crept in. The same thing happened with Kabbalah. Most orthodoxy refused it. But ultimately it spread and became more acceptable. 

 

While there are some debates in the Tal'mud, to listen to a Mach'zor and participate and engage with it, isn't always debate. The teaching found in there are not always actual debates recorded. Sometimes it will say Rav-1 says, "thus n such," but Rav-2 has said, "this n that." And these two are more than likely from different regions or times and never met. In a Mach'zor Shiur, it's more listening to the M'lamed and by asking questions it becomes more investigative (as you have mentioned), searching every angle to a topic, even to the slightest detail of a letter's presence or lack thereof in a word. I sometimes miss the Daf Yomi classes.

~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~

 

Qnts2:

"Each section of the Mishnah is also based on scripture." 

 

~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~

No, not really. There's maybe 5% scripture to every Masekta (Section of a Book), and often times they are out of context or have little or nothing to do with the topic discussed. Though many of the topics are based upon Scriptural concepts, like the Sh'ma, Scripture itself is not as present in the Tal'mud. Everything else is based upon the sages interpretation of how it should be done - Halakhah. But some things, though based upon the text, are not actually what the text is saying or meaning. Example would be the first Mish'nah of the first Masekta concerning reciting the Sh'ma in the evening. It doesn't quote the Scripture, but merely refers to it. And the discussion being about when you recite Sh'ma in the evening completely neglects the Scripture that plainly says, "When you lie down" lol

 

But that's nothing. There's no commandment in Torah to recite the Sh'ma. The Sh'ma itself is the commandment to speak of "all of these words" and teach them to your kids and such, and "all of these words" are the Ten Utterances in the previous chapter. So, yeah, they refer to text, but not to what it actually means.

~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~

 

Qnts2:

Pirkei Avot (Wisdom of the Fathers) 1:1 Moses received Torah from Sinai and handed it down to Joshua; and Joshua to the Elders; and the Elders to the Prophets; and the Prophets handed it down to the members of the Great Assembly. They said three things: Be deliberate in judgement, stand up many students, and make a fence for the Torah.

 

This section describes the supposed chain of transmission of the Oral Torah.  If you will notice, the final section mentions making a fence around the Torah. This fence is what Jesus spoke against in many instances. To make sure the law was not accidently broken, certain commands were expanded so that someone would not accidently break the command. 

 

~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~

Yesh, Mish'nah was the first fence; Gemara was the second; Tosefta was the third . . . then about 600-700 ce later Rabbis added stuff and continued until the medieval period. Savoraim, Geonim, and Rishonim, until the consolidation of the Shulkan Arukh, about 1550-1560?

~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~

 

Qnts2:

"The Talmud uses expressions which are very unique and difficult to understand without an explanation. They are like Jewish court room expressions, or Rabbinical slang."

 

~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~

"Rabbinical slang" made me giggle. I remember those words. But how can I not, I still listen to Talmud Shiurim online. But yes, words like R'shuth v'Chovah ~ Permissive and Obligatory; and Maq'pid uMeqel ~ Strict and Lenient. 

 

I'll just say that my writing was an intro and overview of the Talmud. Not an overview of other Jews writings or the chain of authority. I disagree with a lot of what you wrote, but won't go into the details as this is an overview.

 

Since the High Priest was to head the high court (Great Sanhedrin), the Priest were to be the final judges or ruling authority. The re-group in Yavneh, worked to slowly establish a Judaism, minue the Temple, the Priests etc. Yes, the legend of the Oral Law becoming written in the Talmud is tied tightly to the loss of the Temple, the Priesthood. And the development of a Judaism practiced in diaspora, without a Temple and the Priests. Yavneh was in my view, a power play, and power grab.    

 

Well I'm not going to argue with you, it would be fruitless.   

I know whereof I speak, and the learning I have gained in the History and understanding of Judaism as my faith and heritage. 

Be blessed

 

I agree that arguing would be fruitless.

 

I also know whereof I speak, with having learned and studied history, an understanding of Judaism as my faith, heritage, and before knowing Jesus, my profession/job.

 

God bless.

[John Bernall]

 

 

Edited December 7, 2013 by John Bernall

[John Bernall]

Sorry, the previous response I was going to post decided not to work in the manner I was expecting. I typed inside the quote and it seemed to add to what you were saying. Didn't want to give any confusion lol

Anyways, according to the Talmud and rabbinical tradition, the presiding officer was a Pharisaic scholar, or Nasi (President) (Mantel, 1961; Hoenig, 1953). The position of Nasi was created in about 191 BCE when the Sanhedrin lost confidence in the ability of the high priests to serve as the head of their body. Not surprising, given that the high priest was often opposed to the Oral Law. This doesn't mean the High Priest wasn't present, nor does it mean that the office thereof had no reverence from the people. But ultimately, it was the zugot, the Nasi and Av Beit Din, that held authority, and it was through these that the religion progressed after the temple's destruction. The religion was geared towards a Judaism without temple or priesthood. 

Edited December 7, 2013 by John Bernall